Treo
member
I love the smell of internet testosterone in the morning......
It smells like....
It smells like....
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approached in a parking lot...
- Thread starter jahwarrior
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OP
jahwarrior
Member
let me clarify a few things. the guy wasn't a beggar, at least he didn't spperar to be. he was what many refer to as a "juggie", or "juggalo": baggy jeans, hanging off his ass, black bandanna around his head, neck tattoos, black ICP hoodie, and a fake platinum link chain with a big marijuana leaf medallion. if you can afford fake bling, you can afford a pack of smokes. and why would anyone wear a hoodie in 80 degree weather? that's a little suspicious, wouldn't you say?
as far as brandishing, i don't think there are any statutes defining that as a crime. any local ordinances must comply with commonwealth law in PA. if a DA wanted to charge me, i could get disorderly conduct, maybe terroristic threatening, if the DA was out for blood.
"what part of 'stay the away from the van' didn't you get? back the up, now, !"
i contradicted nothing, actually. i'm glad i didn't have to shoot him; i got to go home to my family and sleep in my own bed because i didn't. i didn't have, nor was i given, an opportunity, to shoot him, either. he, however, had an opportunity to get himself shot. get it? the decision to escalate the situation was taken out of my hands as soon as he put his hand in his pocket, and advanced towards me. every man is accountable for the choices they make. i choose to arm myself, to protect myself and loved ones. he chooses to make stupid decisions that put his own life in jeopardy. therefore, the next time he tries this, and i'm sure he will, i hope he gets shot for his troubles, because it's what he wanted, anyway.
FCFC, i don't know you, and i would never presume to guess where you grew up, how you were raised, or how your mind works. i can only tell you about myself. i grew up in the Bronx, and have been in life threatening situations, where i had to make choices that my life depended on. some of them may not have been the lawful thing to do, the moral thing to do, or the smart thing to do. but, you know what? I'M STILL HERE. maybe it's not a nice what to think, but screw it. it keeps me alive. you can go on thinking nice things, if you like. i'll go on thinking about getting home alive.
as far as brandishing, i don't think there are any statutes defining that as a crime. any local ordinances must comply with commonwealth law in PA. if a DA wanted to charge me, i could get disorderly conduct, maybe terroristic threatening, if the DA was out for blood.
"what part of 'stay the away from the van' didn't you get? back the up, now, !"
i contradicted nothing, actually. i'm glad i didn't have to shoot him; i got to go home to my family and sleep in my own bed because i didn't. i didn't have, nor was i given, an opportunity, to shoot him, either. he, however, had an opportunity to get himself shot. get it? the decision to escalate the situation was taken out of my hands as soon as he put his hand in his pocket, and advanced towards me. every man is accountable for the choices they make. i choose to arm myself, to protect myself and loved ones. he chooses to make stupid decisions that put his own life in jeopardy. therefore, the next time he tries this, and i'm sure he will, i hope he gets shot for his troubles, because it's what he wanted, anyway.
FCFC, i don't know you, and i would never presume to guess where you grew up, how you were raised, or how your mind works. i can only tell you about myself. i grew up in the Bronx, and have been in life threatening situations, where i had to make choices that my life depended on. some of them may not have been the lawful thing to do, the moral thing to do, or the smart thing to do. but, you know what? I'M STILL HERE. maybe it's not a nice what to think, but screw it. it keeps me alive. you can go on thinking nice things, if you like. i'll go on thinking about getting home alive.
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MT GUNNY
Member
Its not my responsibility to learn a different language, therefore if he don't understand, maybe he will understand .45 barrel pointing at him.
Jahwarrior did good either way
Jahwarrior did good either way
Vern Humphrey
Member
I admire eloquence in a man.
On one occasion, when I was about 16, I had to speak to some guys intent on stealing a few steers from the ranch. The best I could muster was, "Take one more step and I'll blow your *** backbone out."
On one occasion, when I was about 16, I had to speak to some guys intent on stealing a few steers from the ranch. The best I could muster was, "Take one more step and I'll blow your *** backbone out."
Brandishing, while perhaps not singled out in PA statutes is pretty much a crime everywhere. Maybe its called an assault of sorts to point a gun at some one or various other terms, but, regardless is a criminal act. Now, having said that, obviously a self defense situation would be looked at differently and you would have an awful hard time getting a jury to convict someone of displaying their gun to stop a perceived assault, robbery, etc. Again I think the situation was handled just fine.
Lady with a Gun
Member
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I've had a couple of situations similar to that happen.
The first case was when I was taking mass transit back to my car. The bum bounced around the ticket machine, to hit me up for money. I told him, in a very flat level voice, "I don't have any money to give you." I also went, almost instantly, into being totally focused on his hands and body language.
He was frightened, and suddenly decided to go somewhere else.
The second was at the grocery store. The guy tried to hit me up for money. Again, I told him, "I don't have any money to give you." I also went into total focusing on his hands and body language.
Again, he acted frightened and decided he needed to be somewhere else.
I was armed at the time, Glock in a fanny pack, but really discrete about carrying. So why did he become frightened?
I believe there were these factors:
1. I showed no panic and told them, I did not have money.
2. I was so totally focused on them, and the shift was so fast.
3. They may have recognized a fanny pack might contain a gun.
I did not even have to flash a weapon to repel them. I may have lucky, in those two cases.
The first case was when I was taking mass transit back to my car. The bum bounced around the ticket machine, to hit me up for money. I told him, in a very flat level voice, "I don't have any money to give you." I also went, almost instantly, into being totally focused on his hands and body language.
He was frightened, and suddenly decided to go somewhere else.
The second was at the grocery store. The guy tried to hit me up for money. Again, I told him, "I don't have any money to give you." I also went into total focusing on his hands and body language.
Again, he acted frightened and decided he needed to be somewhere else.
I was armed at the time, Glock in a fanny pack, but really discrete about carrying. So why did he become frightened?
I believe there were these factors:
1. I showed no panic and told them, I did not have money.
2. I was so totally focused on them, and the shift was so fast.
3. They may have recognized a fanny pack might contain a gun.
I did not even have to flash a weapon to repel them. I may have lucky, in those two cases.
@L w/ a G
Interesting anecdotes. The thugs were clearly watching your body language too.
Unconsciously or consciously - probably the latter - they realized you knew where to look for the threat (hands).
That's a tell you knew how to handle yourself, and they moved on to easier prey.
Interesting anecdotes. The thugs were clearly watching your body language too.
Unconsciously or consciously - probably the latter - they realized you knew where to look for the threat (hands).
That's a tell you knew how to handle yourself, and they moved on to easier prey.
XavierBreath
Member
jahwarrior,
As far as I'm concerned, you did fine. I'm not one to sit back at my computer and judge a person who was there. So many of the signals that alert us to danger are instinctive and nonarticulable. They are seen, felt, processed, and often difficult to verbalize, even days later. You were there, you percieved those signals, and you acted to keep yourself safe. At the end of the day, I can't judge you, but maybe I can give you a couple of thoughts to consider.
I understand what you are saying about getting out of the parking space and driving off. Sometimes it can be difficult, he can close the distance while you are trying to change from backing up to going forward, and you can become blocked in. If you run over the guy, expect to be paying his hospital bills. The parking of your vehicle is something you have control over though. I have personally made it a habit to always park where I drive forward out of a parking place whenever possible, even if it means backing into the spot. Why? A similar hard learned lesson.
As mentioned, notifying the police of drawing your gun prevents the thug from taking down your license plate number and causing you problems by reporting "a man with a gun." Chances are, he wouldn't do that because he wants no contact with the police himself. If someone else saw and misunderstoof the encounter though, it could lead to problems. I would have gotten the security guard's name as a witness as well.
I'm going to ask everyone to edit their French now........
As far as I'm concerned, you did fine. I'm not one to sit back at my computer and judge a person who was there. So many of the signals that alert us to danger are instinctive and nonarticulable. They are seen, felt, processed, and often difficult to verbalize, even days later. You were there, you percieved those signals, and you acted to keep yourself safe. At the end of the day, I can't judge you, but maybe I can give you a couple of thoughts to consider.
I understand what you are saying about getting out of the parking space and driving off. Sometimes it can be difficult, he can close the distance while you are trying to change from backing up to going forward, and you can become blocked in. If you run over the guy, expect to be paying his hospital bills. The parking of your vehicle is something you have control over though. I have personally made it a habit to always park where I drive forward out of a parking place whenever possible, even if it means backing into the spot. Why? A similar hard learned lesson.
As mentioned, notifying the police of drawing your gun prevents the thug from taking down your license plate number and causing you problems by reporting "a man with a gun." Chances are, he wouldn't do that because he wants no contact with the police himself. If someone else saw and misunderstoof the encounter though, it could lead to problems. I would have gotten the security guard's name as a witness as well.
I'm going to ask everyone to edit their French now........
Don't have a handgun yet but when I get one I'll definitely be carrying. Had a ghetto thug come up to me at a bus stop late night (up to me as in inside my "personal bubble") and repeatedly asking: to see my cellphone, when the next bus is coming, and to read the newspaper I was reading. I did the only thing I could do, which was telling him no, read the bus schedule, and no. He left eventually in a taxi (wth?).
sigh I'd rather have just brandished a weapon and had him quit bothering me. A lot of violent crimes have been occurring in that district (University district of Seattle).
sigh I'd rather have just brandished a weapon and had him quit bothering me. A lot of violent crimes have been occurring in that district (University district of Seattle).
XavierBreath
Member
OK, I'm going through the thread and editing the "French" now.
Using punctuation and relevant letters to get around the language filters is a no-no at THR.
Using punctuation and relevant letters to get around the language filters is a no-no at THR.
OP
OP
jahwarrior
Member
oops. sorry, i didn't mean to offend anyone.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
You been reading the papers?
You might not have a reasonable fear of life or grievous bodily injury, but maybe you're an expert in martial arts or something.
I ain't. Besides, I suspect they usually have confederates watching, grading their performance, seeing "how it's done." Once or twice I've noticed others of their ilk hanging around.
I guess my fear of grievous bodily injury has a lower threshold than yours. Sorry, but that's how I see it, Treo.
Hardtarget
Member
It kind of bothers my wife a bit, but,I always get in, start, and leave. I'll put on my seatbelt as I leave the parking lot. Its too easy to be blind sided in the lot...so I want to move as soon as I can.
Mark.
Mark.
Treo
member
Look guys here's my point, right wrong or indifferent the BG didn't do anything to justify deadly force.
I'm curious Jah, what would you have done if this ( based on the available information) unarmed man had chosen to continue his advance? You already showed him your hole card and it wasn't enough what then?
I know it didn't happen to you this time but it can and does every day.
I still think a non lethal option would have been better. Would you rather explain to a jury why you bear sprayed a guy or why you shot him?
I'm curious Jah, what would you have done if this ( based on the available information) unarmed man had chosen to continue his advance? You already showed him your hole card and it wasn't enough what then?
I know it didn't happen to you this time but it can and does every day.
I still think a non lethal option would have been better. Would you rather explain to a jury why you bear sprayed a guy or why you shot him?
My point is that the OP didn't USE deadly force. In fact the OP didn't USE any force at all (such as spraying the BG). They were, however, PREPARED to use it IF NECESSARY. Thankfully the vagrant thought better of it and fled. Pretty easy to explain to a judge (since you'd never see a jury over a misdemeanor). On the other hand, what if the BG pulls a knife and runs for the car and the OP raises the gun and shoots him dead. Again, pretty easy to articulate to the court. Both scenarios much easier to explain than "I thought he was going to do something so I bear sprayed him".
jrfoxx
Member
agreed. Also, if someone is willing to keep coming at you even though you have a gun poitned at him, I dont think some pepper spray is going to deter him much either.Not everyone is instantly incapacitated by the stuff, in fact, many have no problems continuing to fight and/or pose a serious threat.If not, all any cop would ever need is some bear spray, and they wouldnt have tasers and clubs, but they do. I got the "gas chamber" in boot camp like everyone else in the military, and honestly, the stuff is anniying, but thats about it. I have also been pepper sprayed right in the eyes, and I'l admit it's worse than the "gas chamber", but was far from incapacitating also. It burned, but I'm sure I could have still used a gun or knife after getting sprayed if I had been so inclined (I was sprayed accidentally be a friend playing with some spray, so I wasnt even angry, amped up, or trying to resist the stuff).
so, once you spray the guy who is advancing, and nothing happens, then what? Or what if you spray him, and he calls the cops. Cops find no weapon on him, and he says all he did was ask for a smoke. In most places, pepper spray is still assault, at least.
Seems to me like the OP managed to deter the guy by just showing he had a gun, not even pointing it at the BG, or having to fire. Sounds like a win to me.
so, once you spray the guy who is advancing, and nothing happens, then what? Or what if you spray him, and he calls the cops. Cops find no weapon on him, and he says all he did was ask for a smoke. In most places, pepper spray is still assault, at least.
Seems to me like the OP managed to deter the guy by just showing he had a gun, not even pointing it at the BG, or having to fire. Sounds like a win to me.
Treo
member
The op asked for opinions, I gave mine I'm not going to waste any more time defending it. given the same situation I would have opted for a non lethal option. I agree that just spraying the guy wouldn't have been the best solution, so I'd have gone through the steps of warning first.
Anyway I'm done arguing.
Glad it worked out in your favor Jah.
Anyway I'm done arguing.
Glad it worked out in your favor Jah.
Telesway
Member
I always thought every single person is to be considered armed unless proven otherwise.
Isn't that the very basis on which the RBSD folks train self defense? I mean, folks have been stabbed many times and they might not even realize it until they lie in a pool of blood. Happened to my dad's friend, 3 stabs in the gut, kept fighting, thought he'd been punched in the stomach to no effect, suddenly all strength leaves him and he falls on the sidewalk, bleeding.
That's highly debatable and a lot depends on the exact words, postures, tones of voice, expressions, body language in general.
In the given context placing one's hand in one's pocket could be seen as a threat.
Generally, it seems, people who want something but do not want any harm to you WILL take no for an answer. They ask for money or cigarettes or something, you say sorry, don't have any, they move on. There's no reason to pull out a gun and start shouting and whatnot. If they ask for money and you say sorry, don't have any and they persist "C'mon, give me a fiver, c'mon!". Well, they ARE a problem. They could be either of the two: a person who will persist in getting money from you or a person who is using asking money/the time/cigarettes as a scam and will sucker punch you when you eventually look into your wallet/wrist watch/pockets. In any case they mean you no good.
That is why I think jahwarrior did ok. If possible, should've locked the doors and driven off asap.
Good Shot Group
Member
Presentation of Deadly Force, which is what the poster of this thread did, is not Deadly Force. It is the step below deadly force and I would say that it is a very effective form of less than lethal force.
When presented with a situation like this, I always like to say in a rather terse manner, "Oh, I'm sorry, do I look like a victim to you?" This lets them know that you know exactly what they are thinking and that you are not going to go quietly.
When presented with a situation like this, I always like to say in a rather terse manner, "Oh, I'm sorry, do I look like a victim to you?" This lets them know that you know exactly what they are thinking and that you are not going to go quietly.
cruzan
Member
I think jahwarrior did ok, the fact that the store security came over to check means that they saw the threat too.
TallPine
Member
Exactly
Travis McGee
Member
Good job. Don't quibble or second guess too much about the small aspects. You aced the main event.
treo said:
treo, I enjoy reading most of your posts, much as I don't agree with some of them. You've raised a number of good points.
I have one other thought on the subject. I think I would have had little problem explaining why I shot him, and here's why. If I had had the gun out, where he could see it, he would have had to have been pretty serious about getting me. If he advanced with my handgun pointed at him after I told him to stop, he is dead.
It would have been another matter of Jah had shot him standing right where he was.
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