approached in a parking lot...

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally Posted by treo
I still think a non lethal option would have been better. Would you rather explain to a jury why you bear sprayed a guy or why you shot him?

Would you rather explain to the undertaker that you could have shot your attacker, but preferred to bear spray him -- and came out the loser in that deal?

 

[italian biker]

I think you handled it almost right, I wouldn't have shown the gun just yet.
I had a similar thing happen to me at a drive up ATM. As soon as I put my card in, he came around the building at a quick pace and tried to get between the car and the wall. I normally pull as tight as I can to the machines just for this very reason. I unsnapped the holster and was ready to draw. Now maybe he saw my arm movement, or figured out what my hand was gripping. He pulled the "you got a smoke" line. I said no and that he needed to back way from the car. He wouldn't at first. By then I heard my card come out of the machine, as they do when you don't put in your pin in time. All the while, never taking my eyes off of him, or my right hand of my gun, I grabbed my card with my left hand. He then started to back away a bit. I said you should never walk up on someone at an ATM. Someone might panic and run you over. He walked off. That's the closest I'd come to drawing ever.

 

[justin 561]

It's a shame you can't stop on the side of the road to pick up a hitch hiker, or help change someones tire without worrying if you're going to get murdered.

 

[230RN]

Good Shot Group noted:

Presentation of Deadly Force, which is what the poster of this thread did, is not Deadly Force. It is the step below deadly force and I would say that it is a very effective form of less than lethal force.

Good point.

 

[buck00]

he stopped about 20 feet from my van, and asked if i could spare a cigarette.

For anyone with any hint of street smarts- this is the classic street method to interview a "mark." Meaning, it is the way they engage potential prey and feel them out- is this person weak, scared, tough, etc? This request was not an innocent or "socially inept" interaction. It was a test.

It is the method perps use on the streets to determine if they can rob you or not.

Just like in prison, a guy that gives up a cigarette is a guy who will eventually give up his . I don't mean to shock some of you, but you seriously need to understand street mentality to properly read these situations.

* You did the right thing- you stood your ground, he tried to bully past your verbal command, but the pistol made him realize you weren't worth messing with. Don't listen to these keyboard lawyers who say you threatened him.

 

[Pilot]

Roll up window, lock doors, start car, drive away. That would have been my preference, but you left safely with nobody getting hurt. Nice job.

 

[tpaw]

kingpin008

Kingpin008 makes a good point. If the guy who asked you for a cigarette called the police first, you could have been charged with menacing with a deadly weapon. Your word against his. That was a cell phone in your hand right?.....

 

[DragonFire]

What this sort of points out is not what really happened or might have happened but how well can you articulate to the cops/judge/jury what you were thinking/feeling at each moment.

Suppose you had to shoot the guy, the cops come and find no weapon with his body still several feet from your van.

Is your explanation that he asked for a smoke and didn't leave when you told him to OR can you walk through the incident show how he confronted you, then threatened you etc., and show how you did what any "reasonable" person would do?

Are you the complaintant or just one of the "actors"?

Did the security guard see it as you being threatened, or maybe as you pulled a gun on some bum?

Will the judge have the street smarts to see it guy and his actions as the threat that it probably was, or will he see as some "gun nut" over-reacting to some "disadvantaged" youth?


You can't rely on just the truth or witnesses or anything else to get you out of the potential problems you face every time you draw/show your weapon. You have to be able to clearly show what you were thinking/feeling at each step of the encounter, and explain what you did and why at each step.

Sometime you can win even if you did everthing wrong, and sometimes you lose even when you do everything right. There are alot more ways to lose than there are to win. Don't confuse winning with being right or even smart.

 

[230RN]

For anyone with any hint of street smarts- this is the classic street method to interview a "mark."

There ya go. That about sums it up.

Thanks, buck00.

 

[1776 Rebel]

No one has raised the concern that this young man might not have been alone. As Clint Smith says "wolves travel in packs". It is not out of the realm of possibity that another jerk or two could have been approaching the car from behind say. You may not have even seen them. The immediate threat draws the attention while someone else jumps you from behind. Maybe breaking the passenger window and literally coming in the car with you. I wrote about two LE guys I worked with many moons ago that got killed on the streets of NYC. Read about how they died. Out of the blue, sudden, street confrontation. I say you did very good....

http://sasquatchmemoirs.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html

 

[MDMadrid]

As mentioned, notifying the police of drawing your gun prevents the thug from taking down your license plate number and causing you problems by reporting "a man with a gun."

What do you suggest he tell the police when he calls them? I have read a lot the treads that suggest that we not tell the police anything, and only talk to your lawyer.

 

[csmkersh]

The mention of panhandlers bring to mind a story from years ago when I was over in NOLA on business. Was approached by a bum wanting some money. I stopped, and he thought he had hit the gold mine. Instead of cash, I came up with my deputy sheriff's badge from my home county over in Texas. Boy, did he wilt.

​

 

[Cougfan2]

Regarding ATM's, I have my head on a swivel any time I am at an ATM. I am not above asking someone to back off and give me some space. Most of the time it's just people that don't realize it makes some people uncomfortable.

 

[EYESOFTEXAS]

No one has raised the concern that this young man might not have been alone. As Clint Smith says "wolves travel in packs".

+1. Thought the same thing.

 

[XavierBreath]

What do you suggest he tell the police when he calls them? I have read a lot the treads that suggest that we not tell the police anything, and only talk to your lawyer.

The way to do this is to stay near the scene in a safe location, use your cell phone or a pay phone to request a patrol officer. The complaint at the time should be a threatening man, who may still be in the area.

Then the patrol officer arrives, give him your story. Make certain he lists you as the complaintant. Normally, he will do nothing other than take the report. Tell him you were forced to draw your gun to stop the threat from advancing further. Tell him no shots were fired, assuming, of course, that you fired no shots. You are reporting the threat to your person, and informing the police of what you had to do to stop it. You are not admitting to a crime, unless you are carrying illegally.

Expect the officer to disarm you. He may or may not. If he disarms you for the interview, do not take offense. He may make a few comments that you will take exception to regarding CCW. Don't take offense. If you are within the bounds of the law, on completion of the interview, he will return your weapon, and you will be on your way.

Not talking to the police is relevant when they are investigating the report of a crime, or the scene of a crime in which you may be involved as a shooter. In that instance, you may be prosecuted if you say the wrong thing while you are emotionally traumatized or drained from the adrenaline dump after a shooting. It is not relevant when some thug starts interviewing you as a victim in a parking lot. Making a police report in the later instance establishes you as the complaintant, instead of the criminal taking on that role against you.

Here is a very good video regarding not talking to the police. Note it is a video about the 5th amendment in regards to criminal investigations, not about reporting threats to your person. You may certainly call your attorney rather than the police if you are forced to draw your gun but not have to use it. I'm sure he will appreciate your business.

 

[mike7465]

OP: Good job!

Having a gun and pointing out to a BG that you have it, saves people every day. Good for you!

Call the cops? And tell them what? A guy was about to mug me, so I showed him my pistol and he ran off? The cop would most likly just laugh at you for calling.

 

[Tom Servo]

Jahwarrior, you did OK. You went home safe, and you didn't have to shed blood to do it.

That's all that matters.

I agree with Xavier's advice about calling the police immediately, though. I was rear-ended once by a drunk driver, and after saying he was going to do some truly unprintable things to me for wrecking HIS car, I realized that we weren't going to be exchanging insurance information.

I had his plate number, so I started walking back to my car, at which point, he tried to rush me. I drew and yelled, "Obtenez votre bout à bout avant que je ventiler vos pièces viril!" My command of the Gallic tongue may not be eloquent, but he got the idea.

I stopped at the nearest gas station and called the police. I told the officer what had happened, and he said he was glad I was OK. I made a point of telling him I had drawn my weapon.

...which was good, because when they police caught up with the guy, he claimed that he'd done nothing wrong, that he wanted to cooperate, but he was scared for his life when I started ranting and "waving a gun around." He wanted them to charge me with Assault with a Deadly Weapon.

They couldn't get him on DUI, but he was charged with leaving the scene of an accident. In court, he again tried to use the "man with a gun" excuse. The judge asked me what happened, and I related my side. She then asked the officer present who had called first, and he responded that I had.

Bozo got three months in jail for breaking probation on a habitual offender rap.

The two things that worked in my favor were a) he wasn't at the scene to file a complaint, nor did he call at any point during the 4 days it took to find him, and b) I HAD called and explained things.

I saw the responding officer a few weeks later, and I asked him if it could have turned out badly for me. He said that he wouldn't have charged me, nor would he have wanted to. They deal with these situations all the time, and most of the time, they know the difference between a guy on the edge of panic claiming he was acting in self-defense and a guy with priors claiming "homey was out to get him."

 

[230RN]

Eyes of Texas, 1776 rebel:

Yes, I raised the possibility of confederates hanging around, observing his technique, grading him, probably getting ready to pounce, a couple of posts up the line.

See post 64.

 

[GRB]

Also, the fact that the OP was in his vehicle does not necessarily gain him any advantage, particulary with the short distance between them. Any average male could easily cover 20 feet before he could get the window up and the door locked or backed out of the parking space and drove away.

That is why when you get into a vehicle, the first thing you do is lock your door. Then you put the keys into the ignition and start up and drive away if you feel at all threatened. Sitting there with your window open and engaging someone you suspect of ill intent is putting yourself on the firing line so to speak.

I think this was obviously either a scenario for which he had never made a plan, or an example of bravado because he had a gun, or just an example of poor decision making under stress from what I can make of it, but that is just my opinion and I was not there. From what I have read though, I see no reason to have drawn a firearm. Had the guy kept advancing and just talking - like right up to the car - then leaned on the car - would you have shot him - kept the gun where he could have grabbed it - holstered the gun - tried to start the car and drive away - yelled at the guy some more while pointing the firearm at him - or what? Think about it then answer it to yourself after really giving it some thought. Was having the gun out still a good idea at the point it came out? I don't think so; but again just my opinion.

All the best,
GB.

 

[rondog]

Yes, having the gun out at the point it came out was a GREAT idea. Have it in your hand, in your lap, out of sight yet ready in an instant. Only show it if you need to, only fire it if you need to. And the OP showed it because he needed to, which stopped the threat. He did good.

 

[tpaw]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a guy i noticed earlier in the store saw me as i saw him; he changed direction and walked towards my van. i nodded to him, acknowledging that i'd seen him. he stopped about 20 feet from my van, and asked if i could spare a cigarette. i said no. he looked at me, then said "you ain't got a cigarette?" i repeated myself, then added that i quit last month.

he looked at me, then grinned. "c'mon, man. you ain't got a smoke?" he started walking towards me again, at which time i told him, pretty frenchly, to stop, and stay away from my van.

"or what?" he laughed, putting a hand in his pocket. i had drawn my gun from its holster when he asked the second question. now, i held it
against the steering wheel, where he could see it. i told him, in french, to get away from my van, and that i wasn't going to tell him again.

he took his hand from his pocket, holding a set of keys. "sorry, man, uhhh...sorry. i'm sorry.." he walked backwards for about 10 feet, then turned and took off.

Although I probably would have done the same thing you did, the guy didn't commit any crime. If he would have called the police on you, it would have been possible that you could have been charged with menacing with a deadly weapon. In this politically correct and crazy world, that could have been a real possibility. At the very least, a cross complaint, your story against his. But remember, your the one who pulled the gun out. What crime did he commit? By the way, in a similiar situation that I had, I also drew my firearm but did not display it. I had it low next to my leg where it could not be seen, but ready for use. I always realize that an officer, on duty or off, could see me and my firearm, which will raise the situation another notch.

 

[JohnMcD348]

I had a situation similar happen to me a few weeks ago. I was in a shopping center parking lot going into my regular Barber to get a haircut. An older gentleman came up to me asking where the Social Security office was around this area. I "knew" the SS office was in an old bank building about 3 miles south and told him so. He then said it was around here somewhere. I began looking around since there was a blind corner at teh store I was going to in order to make sure he didn't have any friends getting ready to rush me from behind.
I was still close to my truck but had already placed my keys in my pocket so I eased my son(4) behind me and between me and the front tire to guard him and again told the guy again, as far as I know, it's still at the old Barnett Build. He must have noticed that I was pretty determined to keep him at distance so he thanked me and walked away.

A few days later, I learned the SS office had indeed been moved.

Ooops. My Bad.

 

[daddyo]

Sounds to me like although JAHWarrior made a couple mistakes, which happen to all of us from time to time, nobody got shot and nobodies in jail so I call it good enough.

I've had things like this happen several times (Birmingham is currently the 3rd most dangerous city in the US). I guess AL gives a bit of advantage in that open carry isn't technically illegal. I usually CC but have been known to flash if needed. A few weeks ago my daughter and I were walking out of Home Depot in a large strip mall. A guy in a Honda (with the hood actually tied down with a rope) comes racing past us hangs a tire squealing loop down one of the rows, turns and starts roaring (as best that ragged POS could) up toward us. We were about 30ft from my car. I always walk out with one hand on my keys which are always in my left pocket, so I unlocked the doors and told my daughter to get in. I then lifted my shirt so I could "fish for my keys" on my right side exposing the stainless .357 on my hip. The car stopped immediately, and made fast tracks backwards. We took off as well, no more trouble. A good day, as Sly Stallone said in "Oscar": "I got my stuff, and nobody got shot."

 

[springmom]

Yes, I raised the possibility of confederates hanging around,

Would that make this a zombie thread? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Jahwarrior, you did fine. Everybody left with the same number of holes they had when they started, you're breathing, he's still (assumedly) breathing. All's well. And next time I expect you'll perhaps be quicker to get in the car and get out of the situation. Your car is the best weapon you've got in something like that.

Springmom

 

[Eightball]

Yet another reason I lock my doors almost instantly when I get in my vehicle.