I'm considering the Stag 8, I read an article that the Military will be going to piston rifles through phasing over the next couple of years , of course they will have Colts and the Colt 6940P has a $2,000.00 price tag. I think that may push the piston into the main stream, but will probably not do to much too make the piston systems the same, they will still be brand specific and therefore not interchangeable. The reason the Military reportedly is going to pistons is because they can be Fired right away after being submerged, where DI can't. Although I don't plan on submerging my rifle the stag 8 is still very attractive. Most likely I will not be doing alot of rebuilding my weapon with the flavor of the week parts so a $900 rifle with flip up sights is awesome.
AR-15 Gas Piston System
- Thread starter SonOfRoost
- Start date
- Status
Do you have a link or source for that? I'd be interested in reading the article.
Whether the piston meets anyone's personal definition because it moves - or is stationary - doesn't change certain facts.
If the gas is directed against a piston face, it leaves residue. It's up to the shooter to determine if it warrants cleaning. If they are comfortable leaving it covered in grime over thousands of rounds of ammo, it's not my call, it's been done with both systems, and both tolerate it.
Most stoppages are caused by bad magazine, bad ammo, and operator error anyway.
One other area frequently misdirected is that no gas residue gets in the action. It most certainly does, in two specific areas. 1) The piston - located wherever - is part of the action. Since gas is directed against the piston face, it certainly does get residue on the action. 2) Gas blowback out of the chamber during unlocking: The timing of self loading actions is soon enough to have gas exhausted past the brass, out of the chamber, and around the bolt into the receiver.
Regardless of where the piston is.
In the AR, the pressure is high enough that a weapon with NO extractor will still function. That's been tested and is on video, official government release.
The simple fact is that if you discharge a cartridge in a self loading action, gas residue will be propelled from every orifice the barrel has, and then contaminate the adjoining surfaces. Anyone who's shot the HK91, or any auto pistol knows this for a fact.
It's the battle rifle crowd who somehow think they are exempt from physics, or can write their own laws. No, pistons aren't cleaner, they direct the same residue against the same parts regardless.
Up to you to decide how often you want to maintain it - soldiers in combat maintain them daily, regardless, DI or piston, not because of residue, as much as environmental conditions.
If the gas is directed against a piston face, it leaves residue. It's up to the shooter to determine if it warrants cleaning. If they are comfortable leaving it covered in grime over thousands of rounds of ammo, it's not my call, it's been done with both systems, and both tolerate it.
Most stoppages are caused by bad magazine, bad ammo, and operator error anyway.
One other area frequently misdirected is that no gas residue gets in the action. It most certainly does, in two specific areas. 1) The piston - located wherever - is part of the action. Since gas is directed against the piston face, it certainly does get residue on the action. 2) Gas blowback out of the chamber during unlocking: The timing of self loading actions is soon enough to have gas exhausted past the brass, out of the chamber, and around the bolt into the receiver.
Regardless of where the piston is.
In the AR, the pressure is high enough that a weapon with NO extractor will still function. That's been tested and is on video, official government release.
The simple fact is that if you discharge a cartridge in a self loading action, gas residue will be propelled from every orifice the barrel has, and then contaminate the adjoining surfaces. Anyone who's shot the HK91, or any auto pistol knows this for a fact.
It's the battle rifle crowd who somehow think they are exempt from physics, or can write their own laws. No, pistons aren't cleaner, they direct the same residue against the same parts regardless.
Up to you to decide how often you want to maintain it - soldiers in combat maintain them daily, regardless, DI or piston, not because of residue, as much as environmental conditions.
crossrhodes
Member
Solider Systems
I think you can find some good info on Solider Systems about what the Army has been throwing around for upgrades including possibly a gas piston kit to add on to their current rifles. I know that a few people on THR call BS on the source but the MC and Army Times has some direct quotes from the guys directly involved in the decision making on the rifle project. M4 Carbine.net also has some good links about this.
I think you can find some good info on Solider Systems about what the Army has been throwing around for upgrades including possibly a gas piston kit to add on to their current rifles. I know that a few people on THR call BS on the source but the MC and Army Times has some direct quotes from the guys directly involved in the decision making on the rifle project. M4 Carbine.net also has some good links about this.
GBExpat
Member
About 10 years ago I bought a complete AR (Bushmaster) and, shortly thereafter, built one up from a kit and another from assorted, separately-sourced parts. (I was into building several flavors of longguns at the time; neutered FALs, HK91s, AKs, etc)
After firing my ARs for a brief time (and liking them) I decided to build no more ARs since the receiver interiors became SO dirty due to the propellant gas.
When I first read about retrofit piston kits becoming available on the market I was very interested ... until I saw the prices.
Heck, for $400+ I will keep cleaning my filthy ARs ... periodically.
After firing my ARs for a brief time (and liking them) I decided to build no more ARs since the receiver interiors became SO dirty due to the propellant gas.
When I first read about retrofit piston kits becoming available on the market I was very interested ... until I saw the prices.
Heck, for $400+ I will keep cleaning my filthy ARs ... periodically.
XxBulletBendeRXx
Member
Face it guys. THe Piston is better from a recreational shooters standpoint, IMO. Ima DI owner and a Piston owner. As previously stated in my earlier comment. And well frankly I like to shoot the piston version a lot more cause I know when it comes time to clean, it will be much easier to clean because, without the gasses going into and around my bolt carrier it simply does not get that dirty and not to mention not hot at all or even warm for that matter. I repeat. I have done a side by side 90 round test, and with the piston I was able to take out the bolt carrier and it was just as cool as the outside air. And the same 90 round test with the DI carbine, the bolt was to hot to handle. 
Even though my DI carbine, which is a high quality carbine from a well know company that is in service, and in some soldiers hands as I type this, and much better looking due to the higher quality in overall finish.......BUT, From a hobbyist/recreational shooters standpoint, the piston carbine, (Ok ill disclose this uppers make), my Adams Arms upper, is much more user friendly.... More Shooting less time cleaning the action. Both barrels require the same ammount of attention to cleaning. But reguarding the barrel cleaning, that is Captain Obvious speaking again.. Go ahead..
Flame on!!
And the same 90 round test with the DI carbine, the bolt was to hot to handle. Even though my DI carbine, which is a high quality carbine from a well know company that is in service, and in some soldiers hands as I type this, and much better looking due to the higher quality in overall finish.......BUT, From a hobbyist/recreational shooters standpoint, the piston carbine, (Ok ill disclose this uppers make), my Adams Arms upper, is much more user friendly.... More Shooting less time cleaning the action. Both barrels require the same ammount of attention to cleaning. But reguarding the barrel cleaning, that is Captain Obvious speaking again.. Go ahead..
Flame on!! No, it doesn't get that dirty. But it DOES get dirty. Gas residue isn't a major cause of stoppages, but it seems it is a major issue with recreational shooters.
I won't confirm or deny the 40+ rounds in my AR have I shot last October have been swabbed out, either. But that's the entire point.
Why spend $400 for the "privilege" of ignoring what you could ignore anyway? It's not the actual reason people are buying piston. They buy piston because then they can say it is.
Piston dirties up all the action components wherever they are located. Piston does NOT have any documented superiority or durability of design, and the cost to test one and make it public is apparently so high the makers won't even do it. Piston doesn't cure a gas residue problem causing malfunctions, because gas residue ISN'T a problem. Piston only reduces the heat on the bolt face 40-80 degrees, which is functionally insignificant.
Since piston doesn't improve any action based criteria, it's precisely the reason SOCOM pointed out the SCAR didn't bring them anything. The M4 did the same job, and they wouldn't waste our tax dollars on it anymore. It was a noble experiment, it wasn't cheap, but we did find out something when combat weapons are used in the hands of professionals.
When you shoot other humans, it makes no difference whether it's piston or DI.
That just leaves ego, and if you don't have a clue about American marketing, it's ALL about selling ego enhancement. Especially to testosterone influenced young men with disposable cash.
Pistons are sold with weak reasoning and poor excuses for the technology "improvement," but the real focus of piston marketing really isn't function - it's self esteem enhancement. Precisely the same thing that goes on with "tactical" watches, knives, clothing, and accessories.
There's no technical justification for the expense. It's marketing smoke and mirrors with the goal to separate money from the easily influenced. What we read are pronoucements of happy piston owners who find the system allows them to do exactly what they could be doing with DI - ignore cleaning. Well, it's been shown you don't have to spend money to ignore cleaning.
What you do read are a lot of excuses, and they sound exactly like the same ones people justify buying a Rolex over a $25 quartz Timex. Sorry, certified chronometer or not, if you have to leave the house ten minutes early to avoid traffic, spending $$$ to do it is all about the watch, not telling the time.
I'm not sure that's accurate. http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/
There have been a lot of tests showing greater reliability for a piston versus DI system. What the US DoD has most frequently said is that the increase in reliability is not sufficient to justify spending the many millions of dollars needed to replace every M4. For someone buying just one gun - even a handful - the cost doesn't get out of control in the same way.
It depends on your definition of 'documented'. There is anecdotal evidence all over the Internet of people who own both DI and piston designs and they like the piston better. One doesn't necessarily need the credentials of a gun magazine editor or the military to have an informed opinion.
JustinJ
Member
I don't own a piston AR but do have several piston driven rifles. I agree, some amount of residue will of course get into the receiver and carrier but it is signficantly less. What a piston does is alter how much residue is deposited in certain areas. Piston chambers create a much smaller cavity for burnt gasses to enter than the inside of an AR receiver so once the pressure reaches a certain level it bleeds off into the atmosphere or more will remain in the barrel or go out the muzzle. My MSAR's piston gets plenty of carbon on the flat surface but the edges stay relatively clean as the tight channel scrapes the edges. I would venture that total sum of deposited carbon on a piston will be much lower than total amount deposited on the bolt/carrier of a DI AR. Wether or not this matters can of course be debated.
JustinJ
Member
It may not come back through the piston channel however some amount will bleed by the case of each round fired. The amount is of course much less than is introduced through the gas tube of the traditional AR system.
dprice3844444
member
extra weight
something else to break/wear out if not properly heat treated or junk design
another spring to go bad(if equipped)
you still have to clean it,but in a different area
and logistically speaking,parts wouldbe hard to find in a shtf situation
something else to break/wear out if not properly heat treated or junk design
another spring to go bad(if equipped)
you still have to clean it,but in a different area
and logistically speaking,parts wouldbe hard to find in a shtf situation
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Round and round and round and the poor old horse got dizzy...
- Status
