Piston Versus Gas Tube Uppers For The AR-15

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littlered75

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Does anyone know anything about the POF or Leitner-Wise piston gas system for the ar-15? Which is more reliable, accurate, and easier to clean, a gas piston system or the standard gas tube system? I just don't know much about them, and don't know which one to get for my lower.
 
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I've been looking at both (sorting through posts on ARF is so much fun).
I'm still on the fence.

I'm considering just doing another DI-op AR (I'm yearning for a LaRue upper) then going with a 223 that was actually built from the get-go as piston-op: the RA XCR.

Both LW and POF definitely have their followers, and some nice looking products.



B.
 
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The whole piston or gas tube thing pretty much leaves me cold. I think the piston guys are just too lazy to properly maintain their rifles.:neener:

I don't think one is that much better than the other, in real world use. If you're shooting subsonic loads through a suppressed weapon the piston upper may have something to offer, otherwise spend the extra loot on ammo.
 
I think the main advantage of a piston system comes when you run a very short barrel, use a suppressor, use full-auto or combine all three. If you are not in one of those categories, then I think it is questionable whether they offer much over direct impingement.

Just for comparison, the 2006 Swedish AK-5 which is a 5.56mm NATO gas-piston rifle based on the much-vaunted for its reliability AK had a Mean Rounds Between Stoppage of 3,500 rounds. 1968-vintage M16s managed an MRBS of 3,030 in a 30,000 endurance test during the early development of the rifle (This is documented in the 422 page file linked in the Reading Library at the top of the forum).
 
re: Daewoos, nice little rifles. The one I've always coveted was the K1, which was DI-op.

My whole reason for looking into piston-op rifles was because of my one experience shooting a suppressed AR15. I don't have any trouble cleaning my guns, in fact my wife feels I'm a little obsessive about it.


B.
 
cracked butt said:
Why put more moving parts where moving parts aren't needed?
Click to expand...

Could argue why put carbon, gasses, and other fouling in the bolt/receiver where it's not needed
 
I just purchase a keltec plr 16. I have put about 400 rounds through it, testing out various magazines, zeroing it, etc. i took it apart to clean it. At this point , normally an ar will have enough carbon caked in the receiver, that you can eye gauge a depth measurement! I opened up the kel tec, and the receiver/ bolt carrier are shiny and clean. I mean , i rubbed my finger on the inside of the receiver, and got very little black smudge. i was impressed to say the least.
 
In 2005 and 2006, Tactical Response has run a Fighting Rifle class at the Pueblo range in CO. Each year one POF upper rifle has shown up, and each year the POF upper'd rifle has failed either consistently, catastrophically, or both.

A correctly-built impingement AR-15 will run fine for many thousands of rounds without cleaning, and foreign objects such as sand will cause both impingement and piston AR-15 uppers to fail equally (e.g. the lugs will get stuck).

-z
 
Could argue why put carbon, gasses, and other fouling in the bolt/receiver where it's not needed
Click to expand...

Huh? How else is a gas-impingement supposed to operate if the gas isn't needed in the bolt?

Oh, you mean the whole idea is flawed...I get it. I guess that's why none of my AR's work, or quit working after a couple of shots.

Wait a sec....that never happens.....they run like scalded apes.

Hmmm, I guess I don't understand your point, if there was one. Perhaps you think that gas piston guns run cleaner? That tells me you've never shot an HK-91/93.
 
My experience with the AR-15 rifle is that powder combustion products build up to a certain point, and then excess waste is simply blown out through the ejection port. My ARs are no "dirtier" at 2000 rounds than they are at 800, and I've never had a malfunction in any of my properly built ARs (stock Colts). The AR-15 action is simple and inherently reliable, its weaknesses IMO are its magazine and the proliferation of many commercial manufacturers/assemblers that fail to build rifles of appreciable quality. I don't see the benefit to complicating a simple design with more parts, with dubious claims of enhanced reliability. That said, I will prolly buy Colt's gas-piston upper when it becomes available simply because I'm an avowed gadget freak:) , but I don't think I'll have any illusions of it being inherently "better".

vanfunk
 
I've

Daewoo parts are little tricky, but for the price of one GP AR upper, I think you could buy a K2 and a couple of DR200s, that will actually work. I'll wager that most/all of the GP AR uppers well be dead in a few years, and you'll be back to where you were with the Daewoo anyways.
 
Gee, they've only been running the straight gas tube model about 50 years. Do you think they'll ever get the bugs worked out? :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for all the help guys. The only other question I have is about the XCR gas piston rifle someone mentioned earlier. Has anyone shot one or know anything about the XCR? Their website makes it sound good, but all of them do.
 
Thanks for all the help guys. The only other question I have is about the XCR gas piston rifle someone mentioned earlier. Has anyone shot one or know anything about the XCR? Their website makes it sound good, but all of them do.
Click to expand...

They're pretty damn scarce where I live, as far as I can tell. I saw my first one in person at a gun show recently, otherwise no one stocks them, etc. The one at the gun show looked nice, but I don't know if it looked $1400 nice, whic is what the seller wanted for it. For $1400 I can get a quality AR-15 and an EOTech or AimPoint and probably still have enough to buy my girlfriend a nice dinner somewhere to distract her from the grand+ I just spent on guns. ;)
 
swingset said:
Huh? How else is a gas-impingement supposed to operate if the gas isn't needed in the bolt?

Oh, you mean the whole idea is flawed...I get it. I guess that's why none of my AR's work, or quit working after a couple of shots.

Wait a sec....that never happens.....they run like scalded apes.

Hmmm, I guess I don't understand your point, if there was one. Perhaps you think that gas piston guns run cleaner? That tells me you've never shot an HK-91/93.
Click to expand...


I dont really like your tone there, bubbah.


First, my point, which I can make now, is AKs, FALs, M1/M14s, etc all are highly praised battle rifles, that never really get nitpicked for their reliability issues like the M16/M4 does.

And sure, my PTR-91 which you assumed I'd never had or shot, ran dirty as hell, but that design doesn't have the rotating bolt assembly to get fouled up as part of the main cyclic works.
 
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CN,

The point is that self-fouling does not cause properly-built AR-15's to fail. That people do not like the fouling is more a mental issue than a real reliability problem of the rifle.

-z
 
Piston ARs have come and gone over the last three decades--direct gas impingement remains the operating system of choice.
 
I just read up on the piston operation in the PLR-16 and it is a great design for that short barrel that doesnt burn all the powder. Keeps weight down too if I remember right. If I was building an AR, I'd look into it myself.
 
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