Ar-15, what is the soldier doing?

[HorseSoldier]

When we first got HK mags in my unit, everyone thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.

The first failures to feed occurred within about three days, and opinions of them went downhill from there. A lot of guys went back to the USGI aluminums after CONUS range time or time downrange with them.

 

[MechAg94]

I have never had much issue with 30 round mags. However, I can still go to one of the larger gun shops and hear guys telling new customers not to keep mags loaded, or change out loaded mags, or download them. I still think most of that is hearsay and BS. At least it is not something I am worried about here in the States.

 

[Prince Yamato]

If the 30 rnd. mags were only meant to be loaded to 28 rounds, wouldn't companies be making 32 rnd. mags? I suspect the soldier just had a mag that had sand in it or had a junky follower. Magazines aren't exactly works of science. They're a metal box with a spring- be it HK, Beretta, or Colt.

 

[MisterPX]

You download to 28 (or 27 or 29) to help facilitate a tac load. If you're not going to tac load, then use the full 30.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I fail to see why no one can apparently design an M16 magazine that'll function with the number of rounds that fit into it. This "download by two" mantra is nonsense. Surely the engineering challenge of making a magazine that will work when loaded to capacity can be overcome?

I'm not an engineer, but have always wondered if this has something to
do with the dimensions of the 5.56 cartridge itself. I just never have these
issues with AK47 mags unless they're just plain worn out/junked. In
that case you have a different shaped cartridge and a completely different
shaped mag as a result.

 

[Teufelhunden]

As far as banging mags on objects go, I found it useful for the aforementioned reason of jarring loose any grit that had set up, but I also found it useful for ensuring all of the rounds were all the way back in the mag. This was less important for the rounds IN the mag than for the top round. If the top round slid foward due to some ofther jarring motion such as dropping to the ground, it could stick just far enough foward to prevent you from reloading.

I always did it with my M16A2 reloads, and the habit has carried over into my pistol shooting now. When I load a mag with rounds, I'll tap the back of it on the heel of my hand to set them in...don't know if it's as relevant with a pistol mag.

-Teuf

 

['Card]

...but I also found it useful for ensuring all of the rounds were all the way back in the mag.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It wasn't because of sand or grit in there... seems like we all did it to make sure each cartridge was fully seated to the rear of the magazine.

I remember doing it. Seems like I remember everyone I served with doing it. I don't remember anyone training us to do it, or training us not to, for that matter. I also remember that when you weren't wearing a helmet (like in some of the... warmer, extraordinarily humid climates) you'd just tap it against your leg, or the heel of your hand, or whatever was handy.

Now that I think about it... it may have been something we started doing in training when we were using blanks. It seems like those were just crimped cartridges that were shorter than the standard 5.56 ball, so they wouldn't feed correctly if they weren't seated all the way back. Of course, all that was 20+ years ago, so it may not apply at all today.


You have to remember that soldiers (all soldiers) in a combat situation are extremely superstitious. Some things you do just because it's a ritual that worked last time.

 

[rangerruck]

force of habit, you tap and pull a couple of times, you get used to it, you take a quick glance and you know you got a round chambered. I'm sure all the hommies over there, wanna make sure they dont get a 'click' when they have a spit second to live or die.

 

[shep854]

When I was at Marine Corps OCS, back in the '70's, we were told that downloading was to reduce tension on the mag springs, preventing weakening of said spring. As mentioned above, tapping the back of the mag on bootheel or helmet was taught to settle rounds in the mag for proper feeding.

As far as the difficulty of loading a fully loaded mag with the bolt closed goes, I had never noticed a problem since I loaded with the bolt open. However, when I had a very hard time loading my M1A with full mag/bolt closed, I thought I had bad mags at first. Finally I figured out that it was the pressure from fully-loaded mags that was the problem.

 

[madmike]

2. He overloaded a magazine, putting 30 rounds instead of 28, and the weapon FTF the first round which he observed.

I've been putting 30 rounds in for 22 years. The manual I teach from says their capacity is 30. My instructors also said 30. This is all incorrect?

They are now taught to tap-rack-bang
Tap the magazine to ensure it is fully seated.
Rack the action to clear the offending cartridge.

My unit was not taught this in Afghanistan and it is not in the manual we teach from.

Actually, an AR will usually blow sand (ESPECIALLY Arabian sand) out on the first shot. Something about that horrible direct gas sytem filling the receiver with gases.

When I was at Marine Corps OCS, back in the '70's, we were told that downloading was to reduce tension on the mag springs, preventing weakening of said spring.

Which actually leads to more cycles of the spring, which is what wears the springs out in the first place--metal fatigue from repeated motion.

I've got a few of the Brit Sterling steel mags. Great bodies. Followers nosedive and the springs suck. I replaced the springs and followers and they work okay.

Rapping the mag sets the first round back to prevent it dragging, binding and hindering mag seating. It could also dislodge dust, or, in a DAMAGED mag, could loosen a stuck follower. You shouldn't be hitting it hard enough to damage the mag, just to get a clacking sound.

 

[madmike]

You download to 28 (or 27 or 29) to help facilitate a tac load. If you're not going to tac load, then use the full 30.

I'm assuming by "tactical" reload you mean replacing your partial mags with full ones during breaks in the action to keep the weapon topped off? You have trouble with that with a full mag?

I'm not being facetious. I've had that problem with a .45 with 8 round Chip mags. I've never had it with an AR. Stick it in and listen for the click. What mag and platform combo are you using?

 

[mistabud]

i got out of Marine boot about 7 months ago and we were taught tap, rack, bang as well. then, if the rifle did not fire after the tap, rack, bang method, SPORTS was implied.

 

[swampgator]

This was the standard way to clear malfunction when I was in. It was taught in basic training. It is called SPORTS:

Slap the magazine

Pull back the charging handle

Observe the round clearing the chamber

Release the charging handle

Tap the forward assist

Squeeze the trigger

Wondered how long it take for the GI answer to appear.

You download to 28 (or 27 or 29) to help facilitate a tac load. If you're not going to tac load, then use the full 30.

Is this 'tac load' something new? I carried a -16 for almost daily for 3 years (92-95) and this a term I've never heard. We pretty much just loaded the 30 round magazine with (surprise) 30 rounds. Shot one til it emptied then reloaded.

 

[madmike]

mistabud: well, it's not a bad idea, and if it's being taught, I stand corrected.

Lots of stuff starts one place and trickles through, or changes from time to time.

 

[mistabud]

never heard of using less than i full mag. i would call that a waste of space.

 

[jjohnson]

Packin', Rackin', and Stackin.'

Okay....

Yeah, likely the soldier didn't hear or more importantly FEEL the round chamber, and went through the sequence to eject and load (and properly chamber) the next round.

Packing, racking and stacking - first, you load your mags with all they're supposed to hold (usually minus two, because manufacturers believe in best case scenarios ) so figure 28 in a 30 round mag so it doesn't bind. If 30 rounds actually works in your mags 100 percent of the time, more power to you. Murphy's Laws of Combat always followed me, though.

Next, you rack your mags - smack each one smartly against a boot or something else solid (but not hard like a rock, so you don't damage the mag) in order to get all the rounds to rack solidly against the rear of the magazine. Having the nose of a bullet drag on the front of the mag can cause failure to feed malfunctions.

Finally, you stack your mags - put them all in place with bullets oriented in the same way, according to your own preference, but always the same way so you know which end goes into your mag well.

Anyway, if you ever hear somebody talk about "pack rack and stack" that's what it is, and the most important part is the racking procedure - getting all the rounds where they need to be oriented in the mag. This also knocks loose mags that have a "bind" in them and can knock crud loose.

I dunno about you guys, but I can always tell, even when excited, if my bolt (or slide) has slammed shut with a chamber empty, regardless WHY it's done it. My guess is the soldier in question didn't like the feel of what was happening, and let nature and training take its course. May have saved his life, never know.

 

[stillamarine]

Is this 'tac load' something new? I carried a -16 for almost daily for 3 years (92-95) and this a term I've never heard. We pretty much just loaded the 30 round magazine with (surprise) 30 rounds. Shot one til it emptied then reloaded.

nope nothing new, been around for a long time...A tactical reload is when you have a pause or break in active fighting, you want a full mag incase something pops up instead of having 2 or 3 or maybe no rounds in your mag

You know that you have a round in the chamber because your bolt is still forward, but do you know you have any in the mag?? pop it out throw a fresh one in and keep hoppin and poppin. when it's all over then you worry about the partial mag.

 

[madmike]

Yup, I figured that's what it was. We always called it "topping off." And I've never had a problem doing it with a full mag.

 

[Correia]

The reason behind 28 in a 30 is ease of loading on a closed bolt. For either topping off or a tactical load, or whatever you want to call it.

Try this. Close the bolt of your rifle. Insert a mag with 30 rounds. Insert a mag with 28. Notice how much effort either takes.

I've also noticed that this varies from gun to gun, and even with individual magazines.

Anybody who has ever SOed a 3gun match has watched an AR shooter slap a magazine in, take off running, and drop the magazine on thier foot.

 

[JShirley]

Yeah- there really IS a reason to jam that mag in there, unlike "rocker" style mags...

 

[madmike]

Just tried with some full mags. It seems to be a problem with new ones with stiff springs. My older mags and 20s don't do it. The Beta C-Mag definitely DOES have trouble going in.

 

[MisterPX]

Madmike, Correia pretty much explains what I mean with the 28-29.

Swampgator, after a lull, wouldn't you rather resume a firefight with a fresh mag instead of one that's nearly expended?

 

[swampgator]

Tac Load

Swampgator, after a lull, wouldn't you rather resume a firefight with a fresh mag instead of one that's nearly expended?

Who wouldn't?

However that being said: when did everything shooting related go "tactical"?

We always called it "topping off." And I've never had a problem doing it with a full mag.

So did we. I guess we weren't "tactical"?

All this talk about jamming when fully loaded is a bunch of crap. The only jam I ever had with an M-16A2 (want the serial #, still remember it) was using 30 round magazines loaded with 20 rounds. So I guessing we weren't stressing the spring too much, no?

 

[madmike]

I remember getting a tactical velcro and nylon strap (think seat belt) watch band...when I was 15...from US Cav...for $5...

Had a cover to protect the watch and eliminate glare. I soon cut it off because the velcro gunked up and ripped. And I sweated bad under it until it itched and stank.

I went back to a regular watchband.

EDIT: Sorry, was getting this mixed up with the hostility toward tacticool thread

 

[swampgator]

I just think the word should be retired.