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AR 15's...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by GWARGHOUL, Nov 13, 2011.

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  1. GWARGHOUL

    GWARGHOUL Member

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    Hey,

    I know some of you hate these kinda questions.. but being straightforward and inquisitive helped me with my SAIGA purchase about a year ago...

    So.. here it is..


    Down the road a bit, I'm considering getting an AR. I love my AK, but have developed a real liking to having an American combat rifle around, too.

    I have a few questions..


    1.What are some good brands of sub-$1000 AR's.. Ideally I would spend $700-$900?

    2. I see some that have a carry handle, and some that do not..
    I would want to mount a scope or red dot type optics on it.. do the ones with handles come off.. or does it become a whole new changing upper kinda thing?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  2. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    For an AR in that price range, take a look at Smith & Wesson, Colt, Bushmaster, or Rock River Arms.

    If you plan to attach optics of any sort, get a flat top upper with the detachable carry handle. In order to go from irons to a dot scope, all you have to do is remove the carry handle and attach the scope with a picatinny rail mount. Takes less than a minute, and depending on the scope mounts, may not even require any tools.

    Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk
     
  3. *NOVA*

    *NOVA* Member

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    Not saying they are better or worse, but as long as you are in the research stage, check out Del-Ton.

    The more you look into it sooner or later you encounter the "build your own" philosophy, buying your uppers separate from the lowers.

    Good luck! AR's are awesome.
     
  4. ByAnyMeans

    ByAnyMeans Member

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    1: I would look at PSA. They have a great deal right now. It's a hundred more at an even thousand but is a very well built AR, staked where it needs to be with good parts. It also comes equipped with Magpul back up iron sights and an Aimpoint PRO red dot.

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/2557.php

    Or if your budget is non-negotiable try this

    http://palmettostatearmory.com/8923.php

    but honestly for the extra four hundred the first is really the way to go.

    The other option if you want to learn all about an AR and not just care and maintenance then wait for Black Friday and pick up everything you need to build an AR to exactly as you like. If anything grab a PSA lower for their usual Fifty dollar sale, this is the technical firearm part so it goes to a dealer but everything after that can get shipped right to your house.



    2: Their are different upper set ups. AR's are really like LEGO's and you can build anything. Usually a 16in barreled lower has a flat top. It may have a carry handle with an iron sight in the handle. It's on a rail and can be removed for an optic or BUIS set up.
    Their are other upper's with fixed carry handles. You can still mount an optic to the top of the handle and even find some that allow you to still use the handle iron sight. This however make a proper cheek weld hard for most to use them.
     
  5. Vermont

    Vermont Member

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    Nevermind
     
  6. kfgk14

    kfgk14 Member

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    Colt and Palmetto State Armory, for that price. I'd say go with a PSA Patrol carbine. It ships with an Aimpoint PRO (Patrol Rifle Optic) for a total of $1000. Their 14.7" hammer-forged mid-length is also a very good out-of-the box rifle, perhaps a better choice if you're a bigger guy (mid-length=longer gas system, softer shooting and easier on the parts, and longer handguard for a guy with longer arms). It's currently out there for $600, add the Aimpoint PRO which can be found online for $400 and you have a complete system again for about $1000.

    The Aimpoint is regarded by those in harm's way as the best of the best. I'm not making that up, I'm not saying that as an attempt to justify my ownership of Aimpoints, I'm saying it as a fact. Ask on a website like lightfighter.net about red dots, you'll see what I mean. With either of these packages, you're getting the Aimpoint quality right there. Any red dot sight I'd put on any of my rifles would cost at least $150 (Vortex), I'm assuming you aren't going to spend $900 on a rifle and put a $25 airsoft optic on it, so assuming you're going to spend at least $100 on an optic, and the best of the red dots out there right now are Aimpoint, then you're spending your money most efficiently buying a $600 rifle and a $400 optic as opposed to a equal or lesser $900 rifle and a lesser $100 optic.

    To make both of these combat-viable, in my mind complete weapons systems and not just range toys, just add a good sling (one- or two-point, pick your preference) and a flashlight. I'd suggest a VTAC padded two-point sling with a VTAC two-to-1 slider, and an Elzetta ZFL-M60 light in the Elzetta ZFH1500 mount. Magpul MOE furniture is another potential addition, if you don't like the stock handguard, pistol grip or stock.
    That totals out, if I'm not mistaken, to about $1300 total for either system.

    Now, assuming you've followed me on this (I ramble, so it's unlikely) you have a $1000 or $1100rifle/optic combo, $150 flashlight, a $30 flashlight mount, and $60 sling system. This totals out to approximately $1240 or $1340 before shipping and the FFL transfer fee you'll incur unless you're in good with your FFL (or you are an FFL). So call it $1300 or $1400 for a complete weapons system. If you add MOE furniture, you might be up another $50-$100, though used MOE furniture can be found on many firearms boards in decent shape for next to nothing.
    SO for the cost of a Daniel Defense complete rifle, sans optic/light/sling (albeit, equipped with a free-float rail system, but most shooters will never need the rail system's capabilities, they don't shoot far enough), you get a complete weapons system with a high-quality optic, a great light, and a sling.

    I'd suggest the PSA because you get near-Colt-level quality (far closer to mil-spec than RRA, Bushmaster, S&W or DPMS) for S&W Sport prices, and for the price of a Colt you can get that package with an optic. You're closer to a complete, reliable weapons system for a lot less money than any other offer out there, unless you build the rifle of course.

    Of course, I'm making this suggestion on the assumption that this rifle may become a defensive carbine for you, and that you want the best. If you just want a range toy, maybe you don't need all this. But, just in case.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2011
  7. GWARGHOUL

    GWARGHOUL Member

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    I'm not against building my own, if it gives me better product for less dough. Awesome links and info thus far, thanks for not knocking a curious AR-noob.

    How much more accurate is an AR over a nice AK?
     
  8. FWest

    FWest Member

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    I just picked up a spikes tactical, lower last week and got the upper Friday. Nice Mil spec ar. Worth a look. Seemed a good bang for the buck and an easy build.
     
  9. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

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  10. GWARGHOUL

    GWARGHOUL Member

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    That is a very nice setup. I'm considering it.
     
  11. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    With a nice AK you might be looking at 4-6 inch groups at 200 yds, while with a nice AR you are looking at 2-3" groups. Much more reliable hit potential. I just put together a 6.8 SPC and I really like it. Ammo is not cheap but that unit is powerful and accurate.
     
  12. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

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    Palmetto also has other rifles without optics for less. One is $599. Sweet deal.
     
  13. RatherNotSay

    RatherNotSay Member

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    I would really like to see a sub-$1000 ar put 2-3" groups at 200 yards.
     
  14. gotigers

    gotigers Member

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    to RatherNotSay: EDIT. Are you including the glass in that $1000 limit?

    back on topic: The PSA Patrol Carbine is a great deal. Others to consider; Colt 9620, S&W, build your own, etc.

    kfgk14 had great points. No reason to rehash what he said.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  15. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Colt 6720 or 6920 is as good as it gets for under a grand. Of course for your purposes you may be better served buying something cheaper to allow for an optics purchase.
     
  16. Sky

    Sky Member

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    The AK shines at 100/150 sometimes 200 yards with heavy rounds and knock down power IMO. The AR owns 250 to 400 even though the max "effective" range of the AK is supposedly 427 meters. Shots at 300 yards with the AR are no brainers; AK is hit or miss for the ones I have shot. Ranges of 100 to 150 yards who cares unless you only do ear canal shots??

    I have friends who hunt with their AKs and ARs and they own everything from Internet rumored junk to the best money can buy. Both seem to function and do the job just fine. CMMGs, Bushy's, Spikes, Del-Tons, Colts, Doublestars, you name it; anything mentioned already will out live you with minimal care and if something breaks or becomes worn out change the part and you are back in the game.. Guys throw around figures of 10,000 or 20,000 rounds etc etc.......that is a lot of shooting for most folks....what ever you get I think you will appreciate the platform and the ease of changing the looks and functionality. When you get settled in with the AR you will start looking at different caliber uppers and all the options that are available; welcome to the family if and when you make your purchase..
     
  17. RatherNotSay

    RatherNotSay Member

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    Do you have any example or own any of those builds? I'm interested in seeing the paper and build.
     
  18. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    I'm going to recommend the Colt 6920.

    Perfect rifle to start out with. You can upgrade it as nessasary as you grow. It is a flattop with a removable carry handle. Most are just over $1000 right now.


    Option 2 is to buy any complete lower from your local gun store, and then ordering an upper and bolt carrier group from BCM. Then just snap the pireces together in about 30 seconds and you're done. BCM has nearly every decent combination of modern upper.

    I'm partial to their 14.5", Larue 12" rail, PWS pinned flash comp.
    or thier 18" Mk12 SPR Mod 3x, DD 14" rail.
     
  19. RatherNotSay

    RatherNotSay Member

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    $1060 shipped via buds gun shop for the "sporter" with 20 round mag. I can't make up my mind on building or purchasing myself.

    http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_140/products_id/75197
     
  20. kfgk14

    kfgk14 Member

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    AR vs. AK accuracy, my take: I've got maybe 1200 rounds total behind an AK compared to approaching 10,000 behind an AR, my observations have been that the good ones (Saiga/Arsenal) can give 2"-3" bench groups at 100 yards. I've found that my AR's without free-float tubes are slightly more accurate, with groups in the 1.5"-2.5" range. The rifles with free-float tubes do better still, generally in the 1"-2" range. All this testing is done with good Winchester white-box ammo.
    So AR's offer slightly better accuracy, far better when a free-float system is incorporated. The other advantages of the AR are increased range (faster pill stays fast longer), better ergonomics (YMMV), increased parts availability/commonality and ease of maintenance, and lighter weight. The AK's looser tolerances require less lubrication/maintenance, allow easier cleaning, but the design makes maintenance harder (replacing barrels, proper headspace, etc.)
     
  21. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    Colt 6920. Grant has them for under a grand.
    http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920

    I see a lot of people mentioning PSA. At this point i would be cautious. Well unless you don't care about the weapon actually functioning. In that case go ahead. They have had a number of guns go out with the wrong gas tube installed. This means that there were at least three points of failure in the process. 1: Assembly. 2: QC. 3: Test Firing.
     
  22. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

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    PSA had a few go out with the wrong gas tubes. They corrected the issue, though. A representative of PSA posts regularly on ar15.com. Nearly every body who had purchased PSA has been satisfied, if the mentions on ar15.com are any indicator.

    I can't confirm they are as good as Colt, but they have all the right "AR-15 voodoo" (MPI and HP testing, FN barrels, F-marked sight base, etc.), and there isn't any mention that I can find of one of their rifles malfunctioning, save the few that went out with the wrong gas tube.
     
  23. JohnSkiS

    JohnSkiS Member

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    For what its worth, I have had a Stag model 2 for several years, I have used it for deer and treated it like the rifle I carried in the Marine Corps. It cost less than a grand, is reasonably accurate (I just took a coues deer at 200 with Iron sights point of aim point of impact, one shot one kill) and I can count the FTF/FTE's on one hand. Oh and I go out shooting maybe 100 rounds through it a month every month, except when I was still in the Corps, I was deployed too much to shoot my rifle.
     
  24. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    Right now for $900ish you can get a colt. I would being looking at colt or BCM upper put on whatever the best buy (not cheapest per se) I could get in lowers was. I'd add free float and rear BUIS. That should be 900ish or much less depending on the hand guard used.

    There are probably other viable choices but those two are proven performers. For slightly more $1kish you could get a Noveske Basic upper and a lower of your choosing. If you shop around you maybe could do it for 900ish. For example wait until midway has a $100 of $500+ orders sale or something similar. That makes it about a $685 plus $220 ish for a lower. Personally, I think that is better rifle than anything mentioned. You can upgrade hand guards and the like later as you gain a sense of what you'd like.
     
  25. Mr.Blue

    Mr.Blue Member

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    1. Colt. 2. Rock River Arms 3. Bushmaster 4. S&W
     
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