AR-180 Round Up

[AmEngRifles]

WARNING! Things to watch

Here is the Bolt Hold Open Lever. When shopping to purchase, or when you are owning, cleaning, etc. BE SURE to have the safe ON when action is open and hammer is in cocked position. If the trigger is accidentally pulled, you will break the hold open lever (if it is in the forward position), and there are NO replacements on the market, short of buying another gun.

I am sure I will now hear about the fact I have my gun set on SEMI while the action is open...

Do as I SAY, not as I DO!

 

[Maverick223]

I think the increased recoil impulse you are feeling is the fact that the 180 has no polycarbonate type buffer in the action

You mean one of these? Yours didn't come with one?




I cheated it is from a M17...but I had you thinking didn't I? I think a AR180 receiver cover catch hole is larger but if it is 0.392in. in diameter then it should fit. Don't know how easy one can obtain M17 parts though, I have been trying to acquire a complete drop-in trigger group for mine and have not been able to find one (I need to contact Bushy to find out if they still stock parts).

 

[AmEngRifles]

Maverick, you definitely had me going. Thought I was looking at some form of AR-18! It appears that with very little modification, the M-17 bolt group could be made to work in an AR-180??

 

[Maverick223]

It appears that with very little modification, the M-17 bolt group could be made to work in an AR-180??

No while very similar the only parts that may be (and probably are) interchangeable is the action springs and bolt. The carrier has no charging handle, the M17 has no receiver cover catch (or cover for that matter). So unless the hole is the same diameter it won't work.

Do you have a AR-180 or the B model? I don't believe the B model has the hole in the cover catch, but if you have the 180 then you could get a chunk of delrin, poly, ABS, etc... and turn it on a lathe to fit the hole (get it very snug) for a recoil buffer. Either way, you have a good shooting gun, that has a blatant disregard for neglect (it just doesn't know when to stop), and has the tendency to embarrass the AR-15 snobs. That stamped sheet metal POS did what? I can best that...just as soon as I go home and clean mine...I'll be back in an hour...or two.

EDIT: I see you definitely have the AR-180.

 

[AmEngRifles]

Here is my AR-180 with a StormWerkz dovetail mount and a Suit sight. Nice combo, but adds a bit of weight to the rifle. Don't believe I have ever seen this combo before.

 

[Maverick223]

Nice AR, who made it?

 

[AmEngRifles]

Costa Mesa original. Belonged to the man who headed Miami Special Weapons and Tactics. Was his carry gun for a number of years. Purchased directly from Armalite back in the 60s. Came with a fitted case and compliment of 6 30 round mags. I tarted it up with the flashlight, Stromwerkz, SUIT and Tapco SUIT mount. Nothing permanent altered though, so I can get it right back to the condition he sold it to me in.

 

[Maverick223]

Costa Mesa original.

Good stuff, the finish is much better than that of the Sterlings IMO.

 

[AmEngRifles]

It's funny about the range of finishes with Sterlings. If you look closely at the images I posted with the warning about the bolt hold open lever, that is a Sterling made 180. It is an early serial number from them and I suspect that as production past from manufacturer to manufacturer, some surplus, not fully assembles rifles transfered as well.

That particular rifle has what is a very pristine, but very obviously painted black surface. Once you break the rifle open and look at the internals, they have a green parkerizing. This rifle could have been started by Howa, then transfered over to Sterling? If not that, then Sterling started with a specification of doing parkerizing, then black paint over that, but later decided to cut cost by going to a straight blue. After all, this was a "commercial" venture, not a true military contract. I believe L1A1s were finished in the same manner at the time. Paint over park. Just conjecture on my part. Nobody has written a definitive story about the 180 which is too bad. I understand there is some text about it in the "Black Rifle" book.

I have also noticed that even rifles from Howa and Costa Mesa will show different tones to the uppers and lowers. Never have been able to figure this out as they are both steel components. It isn't like the lower is aluminum and the upper steel. If you look at the image (earlier post) of the Costa Mesa (with SUIT) on the side opposite from the ejection port, you see it pretty obviously. Also, here is a very clean Howa image and you can see a noticeable difference in it as well. I will say that photographs seem to make those differences more noticeable.

 

[Maverick223]

I think you are right, they decided to cut costs and went to paint over parkerizing then to blue. I didn't notice the difference in finish on your Costa Mesa, I guess it is very dependent upon the camera angle.

 

[gunnie]

resurection

AmEngRifles,

..."Anybody else know of other accessories?"...

stumbled upon this posting whilst perusing in search of info for a relative with a 180B. he'll be glad to find out about the StormWerks rail offering.

dunno if it was OEM, but there was a 1" ring QD mount that used the stock dovetail, very similar looking parts in lock works to the factory scope/mount unit. (these were long available before the 180B came to market, so NOT that offering)

there were stainless steel aftermarket "anti-drift" action pins that were about 1/4" diameter shoulder on one end, and retained by "E" clips on the other.

methinx these rail forearms should be a non-permanent mod for them, also:

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=117

Maverick223,

who milled the slots in your 17S? how much did that cost? have a bud who owns one and he is more than just interested. runs kinda hot with OEM stock!! BTW, he put the smith enterprises vortex on his, and it is absolutely NO flash, in complete darkness.

i also agree that the 180 design was much more usable/reliable than the 15/16 predecessors.

gunnie

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick223,

who milled the slots in your 17S? how much did that cost? have a bud who owns one and he is more than just interested. runs kinda hot with OEM stock!! BTW, he put the smith enterprises vortex on his, and it is absolutely NO flash, in complete darkness.

I had a local smith perform the work (don't remember the price, but in the neighborhood of $100.00USD), PM me if you are local (or not) and would like his contact information. All the work was my design, and was loosely based off of the work of the late Kurt (of KKF). I performed a good bit of additional work to the rifle as well, all of which is detailed in this thread, some of which your friend would probably be interested in (Note: pic. heavy), Mav.

 

[Billy Shears]

I have a very nice original Costa Mesa one that is actually my second AR-180. My first, which I have since sold, was a Sterling, and the difference in quality between the two was notable, with the Costa Mesa being much nicer. The finish on the Sterling wasn't as good, and it had a few issues. The front sight post had to be cranked up to where it protruded above the ears of the front sight guard in order to zero the weapon; the dust cover sprang open on its own if you tapped the rifle with the heel of your hand (or if you clipped or unclipped the stock from its folded position), and the spring on the magazine catch was weak, and wouldn't engage the magazine catch when you changed the magazine -- you had to press on the front end of the catch to push it down far enough to hold the mag in. Also, the bolt hold open was missing on the Sterling, but that's probably because a careless previous owner tried forcing the upper and lower receiver back together with the hold open out of the correct position, causing it to bend, and he then simply removed it when he couldn't find a replacement.

My Costa Mesa has none of the above issues, still has its bolt hold open, and shoots a bit more accurately than the Sterling did as well. I'm very impressed with its accuracy for a rack grade assault-type rifle. IMHO this was a better basic design than the AR-15/M-16 series is, and had it benefited from the 40+ years of product improvement that the AR-15 has, it would be better still. Even the original, first generation rifle is a superb, lightweight, handy, accurate rifle. It's a real shame it never caught on.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

I'd love to own a Widowmaker someday. To bad even the AR-180b costs an arm and a leg. If they ever hit $650, I'd sell two Mosins, a Mauser, and I may even throw the SIG on the trading block to get one.

 

[Maverick223]

Hammerhead, the way I see it, they aren't too bad...but very difficult to find. They are comparable in price to a AR-15 with the additional advantages of being GP. They also just have a certain "cool factor" and originality that is unique to that design. That said, I don't own one either, I do have one on my list, but there is a lot of things ahead of it. Not because I dislike it in any way, I just own other firearms that fill the same role, and have been focusing on big-bore acquisitions lately.

 

[gunnie]

Maverick223,

thanx for the input, have turned info over to him.....

gunnie

 

[GunTech]

The AR18/180 were designed to be manufactured by countries that didn't have advanced aluminum forging capability and were meant to appeal to foreign buyers who wanted to make their own rifles. Unfortunately, the had to compete with US build M16s that the US was supplying to friendly government for very low prices, so that killed military sales of the AR-18. The rifle also had a problem with sustained fire detempering the recoil spring due to their location. The AR-180 typically doesn't have this problem.

It's an interesting rifle, but with the plethora of cheap surplus parts for the AR-15, it never had much of a chance in the US market.

A site you might find interesting:

http://www.ar-180.com/

 

[Maverick223]

No problem gunnie.

 

[gunnie]

..."I have also noticed that even rifles from Howa and Costa Mesa will show different tones to the uppers and lowers."...


i have looked ~and looked~ for an old magazine article about the 180 that specified the metals used in that model. NO CORNERS WERE CUT IN METAL SELECTION. strictly from memory- they used 4340, 4150, and even a 50 series, or 8620 for the bbl, all tool grade steels. the difference in alloys would explain the disimilar appearance of the parkerizing. look at the old "lead dipped" [annealed] ends of early parked garand rifles for comparison. these are even the same metal, but with a different hardness.

it also does the same to blueing, often considered a definite sign of a low quality job, but not absolutely true. in way of explaination, look at the purple hues of blueing on old 870 remington recievers...

below from:

http://www.harrisoncustom.com/TextDesc/Finishes.htm

"Parkerizing

Parkerizing has been around since before WW II and is still a process that delivers a useful finish today. The most common form of this finish is a deposit of manganese & phosphate, which are applied by soaking the parts in a heated bath. It must be done to parts that have been prepared by degreasing and sand or glass bead blasting. Parkerizing can only be done to carbon steel parts. The rule of thumb is if you can blue it, you should be able to Parkerize it. Parkerizing has a crystalline structure that will hold oils and waxes well. It varies in color between medium gray and charcoal black and has a sort of "soft" look to it. The old G.I. guns that had a greenish-gray color got that color from being coated with preservatives such as Cosmoline. The variation in color is due to differences in the base steel alloy and it's heat-treating and tempering. The color variation can occur on the same part, where a specific area was treated with induction hardening. A Parkerized gun is just a little more durable to abrasion than a blued gun, but is more rust resistant. Because it's been the finish on many of our military arms, it speaks to anyone that ever carried a U.S.G.I. M-1911."


any one who can find the article mentioned above, pls post it. i found it on the net about 4-5 years ago. {was a review from an old guns and ammo, i think} printed when the overall appearance of the rifle was very new and radical, so musta been a new product review.

gunnie

 

[Schutzen]

I just stumbled on to this thread. I have a Costa Mesa AR-180 that I purchased used in the mid-1970. While I have a selection of magazines, I primarily use Eagle 1534 mags. They are no longer made, but I have had luck finding them at gun shows. I save my Armalite mags in case I have a serious social engagement.

Now for My question: Does anyone know where to purchase the e-clip anti-walk pins for the trigger group? I have been looking for a new set for several years and have had no luck.

 

[carbine85]

I have a Sterling with the 40 rounder. Love the rifle. I bought it in the early 80's for around $275.00. The only thing I have done is install a rail on the top and trigger job. Mine originally had a god awful 12 lbs trigger pull and now it's around 5.5 lbs.

 

[Iggy]

I've got a Howa version I traded an old .30 carbine for back in the 70's.
I carried it under the head rests in my patrol car for years.
It came in kind of handy a few times.

Then it rode around in my pickup on the ranch for another 20 years.
It still looks and works as good as new.

What are they worth now?

I also have the detachable scope mount. Never did use it.

 

[gunnie]

BELOW FROM:

http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=501

Anti-Walk Pins for XM15, AR15, M16
Designed to prevent trigger or sear pin walkout under rapid fire conditions. Steel with black phosphated finish.
Price: $6.50
Part No: WE-002


I HAVE ~HEARD~ THESE 15/16 PINS WILL FIT THE 180. HEAR-SAY ONLY. MEASURE DIAMETER OF YOUR OEM PINS, AND LENGTH OUTSIDE-TO-OUTSIDE OF RECIEVER PIN BORES. CONTACT BUSHMASTER AND VERIFY BEFORE ORDERING!

gunnie

 

[gunnie]

..."and trigger job. Mine originally had a god awful 12 lbs trigger pull and now it's around 5.5 lbs."...

was it return spring tension modification? if not, how was this done?

gunnie

 

[gunnie]

..."What are they worth now?"...

in my mind, only a reflection of mfg numbers. sterling imported WAY more 180's into the US than howa and costa mesa, combined. have at one time or another shot the sterling and costa mesa, with sterling mags they were both reliable for at least a coupla hundred rounds we put through each of them that day. had a bud with a howa, never got to shoot it. he said it was accurate/reliable, but again with the OEM sterling steel mags. lotsa aftermarket mags offered for these after importation ceased were junk, and harmed the system's reputation undeservedly.

the fjestad blue book sez, in 98% condition:

sterling-$1550
howa-$1900
costa mesa-$1900

doubt you could get that on today's economy, though.

gunnie