AR newbie

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Stimovsky

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After sustained negotiations, the High Authority for Family Money allowed me one more gun (the last, did I swore, again) and $750, at the expense of a drastic reduction of my weekly beer allowance.

I oughta make the best of those dollars : I plan to acquire a rifle.
I'm a pistol shooter. I'm not even sure I ever shot more than 100 rounds with rifles. I don't know what I'm talking about. But this is meant to change. Today.

I want to shoot a $.50 max cartridge from 50 to 300 yds, from a bench or standing, using a scope (for I already have it). Also please understand I can't reload because we live in a very small apartment patrolled by a nosy 2nd grader.

The inner child wants a lever action. I spoke about that on the range and was advised to reconsider and look for an AR.

I'm pretty sure I can make the best of my money if I buy a kit during the Labor Day sales. I'm the average guy with no experience in mechanics and little more than an Ikea toolbox, but I do know about Youtube.

Could you please help me write down a shopping list ? I don't want to end up bringing an humiliating disaster to a gunsmith who will take my beer money.

Also, this thread is the right place to tell me to stop daydreaming, and buy a complete rifle.

Cheers guys,
 
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I've been reading this thread for a while. There are so many parameters, building an AR15 from parts still looks very mysterious to me.
Regarding accuracy, my expectation is "everything in the 10 of a 25yds slow fire pistol target at 100yds when shooting from a bench".

What else can I say ? I'd like the trigger to feel like the Volquartsen one on my Ruger 22/45, I'd like a heavy rifle so it doesn't jerk a lot, I won't add anything to it beside a scope, so I don't need extra rails, I don't care about anything "tactical" as I'll use it for nothing but punch holes in paper.

I'm proof reading myself and I'm thinking maybe a bolt action is what I'm looking for...
 
You can't go wrong with PSA. Your act of "building" could very well amount to sliding the upper and lower together and pushing 2 pins. If they were around back when I started building AR's (1980s- before it was cool) I probably would have never needed to learn and make so many mistakes along the way.
 
If you think a bolt rifle would be your cup of tea then I'd say find a bolt action in .223. Bolt actions are generally very reliable, accurate and a simple manual of arms. I'm not sure it's ever going to be this cheap (again) to acquire an AR, so that would be something to consider if you thought you ever wanted one.
 
Stimovsky said:
I've been reading this thread for a while. There are so many parameters, building an AR15 from parts still looks very mysterious to me.
Click to expand...

If you are reasonably handy with hand tools, building an AR-15 is not very technical. It does require some specific tools not normally found in the home tool box or are specific to the AR-15. While the basic needed tools are not expensive, their cost may put you over budget. But, you'd have them for the next "last gun.:)

Midway and Brownell's videos can be found here.

Midway's video library - https://www.midwayusa.com/video

Brownell's (click on the Instructional Videos tab on the bottom of the page) - http://www.ar15builder.com
 
I think it would be easiest to get a pre-built gun. DPMS makes some off the shelf rifles with with a bull barrel for $600-$700.

If you'd like to build your own gun, rifle kits with a pre-built barreled upper shouldn't be too bad. It's mostly just pushing teeny springs (to actuate the mag release, trigger, etc) and parts into the lower from there, though as others have said, you will need a few new tools.
 
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palmetto state armory, you can get a good gun for around $500, pick up two magazines and mount the scope for around $600 total, and that is a good mount.
lower, ship to your FFL
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...wer-magpul-moe-edition-black-no-magazine.html

complete upper, ship to your house
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...om-upper-with-rear-mbus-bcg-ch-516445358.html

magazine: order one, or as many as you want
http://palmettostatearmory.com/magpul-pmag-30-5-56x45-magazine-mag571-blk.html

scope mount: if you need it and it fits your scope
http://palmettostatearmory.com/burris-ar-peppr-mount-1-410344.html

All the items above combined cost $582, that is only one magazine.

or just buy the rifle for $450 http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...t-freedom-rifle-with-rear-mbus-516446600.html

I love the AR15 for several reasons. they are everywhere, the magazines, ammunition, accessories, spare parts, upgrades etc. also, tons of people are knowledgeable of them. They shoot pretty well, function pretty well, are easy to learn to manipulate, have no real recoil to worry about, fit anybody. there are better guns, but the AR is the king of the early 21st century sporting rifle.
 
Thank you for your help, choices are easier to make now.
Even at this bargain price, the Larue kit will put the gun out of budget.

I'll buy an upper and a lower in 5.56 Nato. Any lower will match any upper, right ? If not, what should I look for ?
Also, as I will use a scope, I need to select an upper without iron sights, or can I remove them ?
 
Sub MOA kit:
http://www.larue.com/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit

I'm trying to convince myself not to order a 2nd one. It's not going well.

What state are you in? Plenty of AR builders will build you one for pizza and beer. (soda for me) Then again, you may want to build it your self.
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Or you can go the no build route. Get a carbine lower built complete from your local gun store. Order any upper you want online. Order a good bolta carrier group online. Snap them together (1 minute) and your done.

For example:

Complete lower
505511a.jpg
PSA: $130


Complete bolt carrier group $100ish:
p_078102001_2.jpg

BCM middy upper $600:
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM...eceiver-Group-w-p/bcm-urg-mid-16-kmr-a-15.htm

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You can save a few bucks with a cheaper upper:
Mas Defense
$300 with a chrome lined barrel 1x7 twist:
http://www.shop.masdefense.com/16-556-223-BARRELED-UPPER-GTLKM-15-KEYMOD-165GLKERBU.htm
 

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The laurue kits are a great option at a fantastic price compared to what they usually are.

I personally would recommend a Colt Trooper. They are right around $750 and better quality overall than anything in that price range. Nothing wrong with PSA if you want a range gun, but components will not be as good as the Colt and if you ever want to sell it the Colt will hold value much better
 
Stimovsky said:
I've been reading this thread for a while. There are so many parameters, building an AR15 from parts still looks very mysterious to me.
Regarding accuracy, my expectation is "everything in the 10 of a 25yds slow fire pistol target at 100yds when shooting from a bench".

What else can I say ? I'd like the trigger to feel like the Volquartsen one on my Ruger 22/45, I'd like a heavy rifle so it doesn't jerk a lot, I won't add anything to it beside a scope, so I don't need extra rails, I don't care about anything "tactical" as I'll use it for nothing but punch holes in paper.

I'm proof reading myself and I'm thinking maybe a bolt action is what I'm looking for...
Click to expand...
You can buy a completed upper and a completed lower, pop two pins in, and build an AR.
You can buy a Savage Axis that does everything you want except it won't be heavy, for under $300. That leaves a lot of $$$ for mounts and ammo. .223 would be the caliber to keep the ammo costs down.
 
Stimovski, with little mechanical experience and even less with rifles, I think it's a mistake to attempt to build your own AR. It's easy enough to bribe someone knowledgeable with a pizza to come over and help you assemble an AR but much more difficult to find someone who knows enough about ARs to ensure it will run right once it's together. Most shooters can't agree what parts to avoid and what parts are good. A shooter who has put a few thousand rounds through an AR and demands 100% reliability has a completely different idea of what hits and what fits than someone who only shoots a couple of magazines worth two or three times a year and tells you "it's not like you're taking it to war".

Your expectations of what you want for $750 are unreasonable. If you want a solid, durable, reliable right out of the box AR for that kind of money, you should get a Colt 6920r Trooper. Look it up for the details, availability and price. I'm not gonna do your homework for you:)

You can get a kit from PSA and make it work. There are parts you will need to upgrade if you plan to do much more shooting than an occasional mag. It will need to be upgraded to a Colt extractor spring (true for almost all brands of ARs) and an H or H2 buffer. Stay awat from the PTAC line. Premium PSA kits are better than the Freedom kits. Freedom kits are ok, but in general, are not as accurate. If you don't plan on shooting the more expensive, quality ammo, don't worry about accuracy.

If you don't mind a bit of tinkering, the PSA kit will be ok. Once you get all the kinks ironed out, it will run as reliably as an AR should. If you would rather your AR shoot right out of the box, get a Colt 6920 or 6720. If you don't know what they are, look them up.

But, if you would rather have a lever action, buy a lever action. Don't buy an AR just because someone said you should. Follow your heart and get what you really want
 
If your idea of buying a kit or putting it together with parts is to save money then reconsider your options. Complete, brand name ARs are out there for well under your budget. As others have mentioned, you can get a PSA lower and shop for an upper that fits your needs and wants and you will come in well under your budget as well. Right now is the right time to buy an AR. Don't mess around with assembling one unless you want to learn more about them than just operating one. You don't have to give up as much beer as you think if you keep it simple.
 
Eh, if you want accuracy on a budget an AR is not the best choice. Get a bolt .223 and call it a day. There are a bunch in your price range and many of them are quite accurate (1 MOA or better). ARs even now can get into money f you are chasing the accuracy dragon. If you are not mechanically inclined (I was happy to buy a complete upper, a complete lower, and slide the two pins in), stick with a bolt unless you worry about zombies or urban riots. As a plus, the slower rate of fire of a bolt gun will keep your ammo costs a lot lower than with a semi-auto.

As far as the beer budget goes, take up homebrewing. It is trivially easy to churn out very nice beer at a fraction of the cost of store bought.
 
I'm happy I asked, and happier you answered and cleared the way. You guys helped me avoid a very possible failure. Thanks a lot to all of you.

I'll visit a couple AR manufacturers and see if I can find good deals on an upper and a lower this week, but I'm slightly more inclined to get a bolt action rifle now. I need to think about it some more.

And regarding homebrewing, that won't definitely do it : I like to see a lot of variety in my fridge.
 
First, reconsider a lever gun.
Second, IF you are going with a budget of $750, your choices are
600$ kit, 100$ tools, 50$ tax, transfer-OR 700$ for the assembled
rifle, & 50$ T&T. IMO, 700 for the assembled rifle is a better bet.

Be sure to get the 5.56 barrel, that way you can shoot both .223 & 5.56.
 
I generally don't condone building your first AR, but I DO condone having one built, as the only time I recommend buying off of the shelf is when the buyer is wanting a cheap mil-spec carbine.

You're looking at 0-300yrds, and while a dozen guys are going to jump on and point out improved battlefield zero and shooting 600yrds in boot, the reality is in how large their targets were. I too have shot iron sight A2 AR's out to 600yrds, but I don't generally have a 5ft diameter target when I'm pleasure plinking. Mil-spec AR's - meaning the low cost kits - will generally run 2-4moa with cheap surplus ammo, and generally slip into the 1-2moa with premium ammo. Proper barrels will shoot as tightly as you can shoot them.

Personally, for what you're doing, I'd build an 18" with a custom barrel (shilen, krieger, black hole, criterion, Wilson) with a 1:7" or 1:8" twist, free float handguard, adjustable gas block, and an upgraded trigger - and on a really tight budget, a $12.38 trigger job might be a good option at least for short term, but for $750-900 before optics and enough patience to hit sales, you can build a very nice rifle.

A bolt gun in .223rem is definitely cheaper than an AR, and easier to get sub-Moa performance. But the form factor is very different, as are the capabilities. A guy can "America" with any AR from time to time, and if built right, they can still reach out 600+ yards, but a guy can't speed up a bolt gun if they want to blow some rounds for the sake of making noise.

A huge functional advantage with the AR-15 over a bolt gun is the ability to stay in the scope, keep your target within the field of view, and deliver follow up shots without breaking your position. A bolt gun forces the shooter to compromise their position, at least slightly, to operate the action, so a guy has to rebuild a part of their position for follow ups - For less experienced shooters, that might mean a complete rebuild of position if they paint themselves into a corner. I like to set up 3-5 targets at any given range and run strings back and forth in different orders, just to practice transitions, for example putting up a couple 66% IPSC's, 10" and 8" plates at 500-600yrds, and walk back and forth - it's much slower with a bolt gun, not because I can't run a bolt gun quickly, but simply because I don't have to rebuild any part of my position as I pan.

If you're still interested in building an AR, shoot me a PM with your email. I have an excel spreadsheet which includes all of the necessary parts to build an AR, and I can help you plan a budget, as well as discuss parts compatibility and building techniques. A guy can slap an AR together from parts (not complete upper and lower) in under an hour, but if a guy really wants it to run well and shoot straight, there's more elbow grease to go in. NONE of it is highly technical, none of it is even remotely difficult, it's just a matter of having the list of steps in hand.
 
Varmintterror wrote:
...don't generally have a 5ft diameter target when I'm pleasure plinking.
Click to expand...

Something to add to your Christmas list. :)

...parts compatibility and building techniques. A guy can slap an AR together from parts (not complete upper and lower) in under an hour, but if a guy really wants it to run well and shoot straight, there's more elbow grease to go in.
Click to expand...

I have not built an AR from a parts bag. I could see just from looking at assembled ARs more than simply turning screws and pounding in pins would probably be required, but I had no idea what was significant and what wasn't. That's why when we got rifles for our sons, we unknowingly followed your advice and got them each "a cheap mil-spec carbine".
 
hdwhit said:
I have not built an AR from a parts bag. I could see just from looking at assembled ARs more than simply turning screws and pounding in pins would probably be required, but I had no idea what was significant and what wasn't. That's why when we got rifles for our sons, we unknowingly followed your advice and got them each "a cheap mil-spec carbine".
Click to expand...

It's funny how it works out, but when I look at "ballisto-economics" that's where I land. In my years of instructing, I have come up with two truths which I believe help students get the most out of their dollar:

1) If you're buying your first handgun, it should be 2 handguns, a 22LR "target style" pistol (Ruger Mark series, Buckmark, Victory, 41) and the handgun you're actually wanting.

2) If you're wanting anything other than a blasting AR-15, it's money well spent to buy a used mil-spec carbine and give it a test drive, then resell it and BUILD the rifle you actually wanted. (And I only say buy used here to get around that sunk cost of immediate depreciation).

Both of these rules above help their respective purchasers make the most of their dollar to get to a certain degree of capability with their "primary" or "objective" firearm. It costs more up front, but after a year or two, these rules pay back in spades - the shooter will have saved money and found themselves at a heightened plane for performance. There are exceptions, as I've met people who have built the AR they want right out of the gate, and I've met people who picked up a 1911 and became incredibly proficient seemingly overnight - but I've NEVER met anyone who went one of these two routes for their respective objectives and regretted the purchases. Most people I know have ended up keeping their mil-spec carbine, just because it didn't cost much and it's nice to have, but it does give you the option to resell it and basically break even.
 
I would get a kit from Midway, Delton is good quality. That way you get quality parts backed by a reputable dealer with customer service. I have had lots of trouble with PSA parts and kits. But better yet, you can buy factory guns really cheap now.
 
I started this thread in a rush because I wanted to take advantage of Labor Day sales.
I changed my mind today and I decided to slow things down. My thoughts are getting clearer the more I read what's posted here. That is the purpose of my posts so once again, thank you all.

This rifle I need help to define will be for testing purposes : I'll shoot it for a couple months and see if I'm enjoying it as much as I enjoy shooting handguns, and if I feel the same desire for improvement and accuracy.
If I don't, I'll sell it and won't loose too much money. If I do, the advantage of an AR over lever or bolt action rifles is that I could stealthily upgrade it step by step.
I promised it would be "my last gun" so I need to plan carefully, in case I get addicted and decide to enter the race.

Plus, as Varminterror almost said, you can see AR shooters enjoying their rifles in several ways on all ranges, but bolt action rifles shooters all shoot the same quiet way.
I'm not saying this is no fun, I'm saying I'm looking for a recreational rifle right now and AR seem more like it.

I can be more specific about what I want to do of that rifle. I probably won't shoot a lot from a bench : I think what I'm really interested in is applying what I know of bullseye pistol to a longer range with another instrument.
I will shoot factory ammo, no cheap surplus (I spent an afternoon with a friend's AR at 100 yds last year and saw the eyes opening difference with quality ammo) but I can't afford high end rounds either. I'll stay around $.40 per round.

One thing for sure at last, I won't build it. As several of you pointed out, the cost for tools, an everlasting doubt about having it done unproperly, and unmistakable scratches and cracks caused by my lack of experience would surely ruin the enterprise.


I'm in contact with two renowned AR manufacturers near me. I wanted to visit one tonight but the traffic demon forced me into his hell and I couldn't make it. I'll email him what you suggested Varminterror, and see what options he may have for me.
 
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