Are concealed permit holders more responsible and law abiding?

[GuyWithQuestions]

I was in a discussion with one of my roommates this evening and he was quite against firearms, especially concealed firearm permits, unless they're used for sport.

I said that I'm not just for LE and the military carrying firearms in public, but also responsible law abiding civilians. I told my roommate that whenever you hear about firearm murders or shootings on the news, it's interesting that the perpetrator never has a concealed firearms permit. The perpetrator usually has a criminal background record that led up to the shooting. In the Amish school shooting, the news said he had things in his past he got in trouble for. If not a background the perpetrator was in a situation he legally shouldn't have had the gun in the first place in that situation. In the Virginia Tech incident, Cho legally bought a firearm, but brought it onto a campus where firearms were illegal. Since those who commit the shootings don't have permits and are going to bring guns into areas where they can't legally anyway, why not let those who pass background checks and training at least protect themselves? Why not make "shall issue" the policy if someone is willing to have basic training and a background check? I also pointed out how those with permits are less likely to be convicted of a felony than the general public. They go through background checks and are the ones willing to do things legally in the first place.

My roommate's response to all this was "How do you know that Cho didn't have a concealed weapons permit?" You don't know that for sure! My roommate also said he doesn't agree that those with permits are less likely to be convicted of felonies than the average citizen. I used gunfacts.info as a source. He said "of course gunlovers.com will support that point" and that he wants real sources from me.

Does anyone have have any statistics on how many of those involved in illegal shootings have permits and how many don't? Anyone know how many of them have previous criminal background problems? Does anyone know of good solid research on whether those with concealed permits are less likely to be convicted of a felony in the future?

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

He also said that even if someone doesn't demonstrate a reason not to have a firearm, he doesn't trust those with concealed permits because anyone can change and do something stupid. He said that even if some don't demonstrate a reason not to have a handgun, people commit suicide. He said why create a problem by making non-hunting firearm's available to people.

 

[Oleg Volk]

1. Who made him god and arbiter of other people's lives?
2. Hunting guns tend to be more powerful than self-defense guns. Mark Penman had no trouble checking out with the aid of a 12-gauge shotgun.
3. Even if a hundred people go postal, it doesn't mean that you and I should be deprived of our liberties for the transgressions of others.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Some folks project their feelings and thought processes onto others.

When a fellow says, "People shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun around; they'll get angry and shoot someone with it," what he's really told you is what he fears he's do himself given that opportunity.


Rather than engage the argument and defend it, challenge the premise, and the irrational statements.


"So, if you carried a gun, you'd shoot someone with it in anger?"
"I sometimes carry a gun. Do you feel I'd shoot someone in anger?"
"Why is it you feel someone would act out of character and murder someone simply because they decided to carry a handgun?"


Explore the thought processes rather than become defensive and justify it. You'll never convince those who think irrational thoughts that way.

 

[CajunBass]

Are concealed permit holders more responsible and law abiding?

Uhhhh They got a permit didn't they?

 

[TimboKhan]

If he wants credibility out of you, demand it out of him. It's pretty clear to me that his argument is shaky at best, but it's only fair of him to have credible stats and sources if he demands them of you. By the way, as I said in your other thread, Cho conclusively did NOT have a CCW permit.

 

[TexKettering]

Conviction rates of CHL holders in the state of Texas. That right there shows that even in the wild west where people still ride horses CHL holders are more law abiding.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2005.pdf

 

[jeepmor]

CHL's are used for sport, the sport of staying alive.

Well put Bullfrog, Put the issue is in his lap, deconstruct his argument as issues with his own fears, not yours.

Permitted folks are easily more law abiding characters, the background check and willingness to subject oneself to such scrutiny is proof they have nothing to hide.

 

[McCall911]

Uhhhh They got a permit didn't they?

+1.

CajunBass, I've noticed that you think like me. You poor fella.



Sure! If you're not law-abiding, the sheriff doesn't issue you a permit! Next question?

 

[Titan6]

That said of course CHL holders commit crimes. If there was some magic way to prevent anyone from ever commiting a crime it would have been brought to light long ago. But certain crimes; such as armed robbery are very rare.

 

[McCall911]

From my experience:

Every time a pistol permit is applied for, a criminal history on that person is run by the issuing agency. (I did it as part of routine paperwork for years.) If any crimes are in the NCIC III and state LEDS (Law Enforcement Data System) they were attached to the copy of the pistol permit application and sent back to the sheriff/chief for his consideration. But, of course, I always attached negative responses also.

There may be instances where applicants have slipped through the cracks and committed recent crimes before the issuing of the permit, but I personally don't know of any. Generally, major and consequently permit-denying crimes are entered into the systems rather quickly.

 

[njb]

Tex,

Those are good stats for Texas CHL holders, but for it to prove anything, you have to know what percentage of Texas residents are CHL holders. If only 0.3708% of the residents are CHL holders, then CHL holders commit crimes as often as non-CHL holders. Any idea what the percentage of Texans with CHL is?

 

[Titan6]

Here this will help.

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html

So yes in Texas they are more law abiding.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I can't say much for other states but here in Virginia open carry is perfectly legal. (Might get you a hassle, but it's legal). So the people who tend to get a CCW permit are of a certain (law abiding) mindset because we certainly don't HAVE to spend the time/money/put up with invasion of privacy/do the training and so forth, we could just carry open and skip all the hoopla.

 

[axeman_g]

by the definition... CHLs are more law abiding.. before application most definetly and after receipt of license.

Your friend needs to understand the concept of "free choice".

 

[LAK]

I do not think that a permit is any measure of anyone's responsibility - nor self discipline, character, subject knowledge, nor subject abilities. It is merely permission granted by the state and a perpetual tax following some hoop jumping.

Certainy most permit holders are more so than many individual people. My own experience and observations indicate that it is a disciplined upbringing, culture and objectively effective judicial and penal system that are the foundation of responsible people.

Tex,

You also have to know how many of those CHL holders have commited crimes and simply never been caught.

--------------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[General Geoff]

You also have to know how many of those CHL holders have commited crimes and simply never been caught.

Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[TallPine]

I am always leery of these kind of arguments, because I don't think a citizen should have to have a permit to CCW (aka Vermont and Alaska).

BullfrogKen is right - this guy is thinking purely on emotions so no logical arguments will change what passes for his mind.

 

[Nickotym]

Those are good stats for Texas CHL holders, but for it to prove anything, you have to know what percentage of Texas residents are CHL holders. If only 0.3708% of the residents are CHL holders, then CHL holders commit crimes as often as non-CHL holders. Any idea what the percentage of Texans with CHL is?

From the Report:

"CHL Holder Percentage of Total Convictions" is a percentage derived from the ratio of CHL holder convictions to total
convictions for the offense.
End of Report

In other words, non CHL holders committed 99.7% of the crimes.

 

[fletcher]

Are concealed permit holders more responsible and law abiding?

Yes. NC released statistics a couple years ago that showed CCW permit holders overall are more law-abiding than police officers.

Only once in a blue moon will a permit holder get in big trouble.

 

[DavidVS]

Lane County, Oregon Data

I don't have all the right data. This is the best approximation I can do.

Lane County, Oregon, has roughly 10,400 CHL holders, of whom only 57 have ever been revoked.

A CHL is revoked for any misdemeanor or felony. So half a percent of CHL holders have committed a misdemeanor or worse since obtaining their CHL.

The FBI website reports 76,538 criminals they have profiled in Oregon for their National DNA Index System. The state has about 3,700,800 people. So my rough estimate for what percent of the general population has committed a misdemeanor or worse is about 2%.

This in my county it appears that CHL holders are roughly four times less likely to commit a crime than the average population.

This is probably less positive news than the pro-carry folk want to hear, but of course much more positive than the anti-gun folk depict.

 

[MD_Willington]

A lot of people, and I hate to admit this, but I've noticed a few of them with lower intelligence, do project themselves, a lot.

Recently a person we met admitted they would shoot their ex-husband if they had a firearm, I can say she wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack, but what she said was a pretty sad commentary.

Personally I could not fathom shooting someone simply because I didn't get along with them, to me that is rediculous.

Many people do not really "get IT"..

 

[RPCVYemen]

Yes. NC released statistics a couple years ago that showed CCW permit holders overall are more law-abiding than police officers.

Is that available anywhere on the web?


Mike

 

[arctictom]

I suspect that CCW holders commit a very low percentage of crimes.
Since Alaska started the CCW program I believe we have had 3 that were asked to surrender their CCW , and no crimes have been committed with a firearm.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

"How do you know that Cho didn't have a concealed weapons permit?"

Because a permit is a matter of public record. If he did have one, the anti-gun media would be trumpeting it to heaven.

But your friend is asking you to prove a negative -- that's a logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on the one advancing the positive argument (that Cho did have a permit.)