71Commander
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I've never seen a H&K blow up like Glocks.
Are HK's just as reliable as Glocks?
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surfinUSA
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Prior to our Department's approval of the glock 17 and 26, they approved most of the major maufacturers in full and compact size, in 9mm, 40 and 45.
In 2004, the Department standardized on the 9mm with the other calibers grandfathered in, the same guns were on the approval list.
At the time, the majority of Department members (3,500 sworn) were using 9mm. I was told by our armorer that the hk had the highest breakage rate of all aproved brands and the Beretta the least. The firearms section was attempting to have the Department standardize and issue the DAO Beretta 92.
Times and personnel have changed. As I said the glock was approved after the 2004 cut off so its only in 9mm.
HK is a nice expensive gun. But for me, I'll only carry a glock or a SIG in that order (and I'm grandfathered in on SIGs in 40 and 45), barring that a Beretta 92G model DAO.
As a side note, I haven't carried a defensive weapon with a manual safety in 20 years and don't plan to start.
In 2004, the Department standardized on the 9mm with the other calibers grandfathered in, the same guns were on the approval list.
At the time, the majority of Department members (3,500 sworn) were using 9mm. I was told by our armorer that the hk had the highest breakage rate of all aproved brands and the Beretta the least. The firearms section was attempting to have the Department standardize and issue the DAO Beretta 92.
Times and personnel have changed. As I said the glock was approved after the 2004 cut off so its only in 9mm.
HK is a nice expensive gun. But for me, I'll only carry a glock or a SIG in that order (and I'm grandfathered in on SIGs in 40 and 45), barring that a Beretta 92G model DAO.
As a side note, I haven't carried a defensive weapon with a manual safety in 20 years and don't plan to start.
MisterMike
Member
Here's a thread that discusses a couple: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=73629
Which brings me back to the single smartest post I've yet to read on THR, when Pizzagunner wrote:
Pizzagunner must be some sort of religious sage, or at least must talk occasionally with God, because his post accurately encapsulated the truth.
I would agree statistically they're all similar. The official testing seems to vary from each time it's done too. I'm not too familiar with their testing procedures but I'm sure that's more at fault than the guns.
That being said... I own an HK and glocks are like the base model white car that is at the lot to me. It goes just as well, but I do buy the options.
For me HKs had over Glocks:
1) Ambi controls for slide and mag.
2) All new ones like the 45, P2000 and P30 have at least changeable backstraps if not side straps too. I loved this because there tended to be a pocket in my palm that was solved my a large right sidestrap.
3) Trigger options of DA/SA and LEM for whatever tickles my pickle. I happen to like DA/SA.
Glocks have some over HK too:
1) Can take high capacity mags.
2) Parts are easy to change and get. Mostly because they haven't changed much in the years.
That being said... I own an HK and glocks are like the base model white car that is at the lot to me. It goes just as well, but I do buy the options.
For me HKs had over Glocks:
1) Ambi controls for slide and mag.
2) All new ones like the 45, P2000 and P30 have at least changeable backstraps if not side straps too. I loved this because there tended to be a pocket in my palm that was solved my a large right sidestrap.
3) Trigger options of DA/SA and LEM for whatever tickles my pickle. I happen to like DA/SA.
Glocks have some over HK too:
1) Can take high capacity mags.
2) Parts are easy to change and get. Mostly because they haven't changed much in the years.
ScareyH22A
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I never thought I'd look anywhere outside of HK, Sig, Beretta, and Glock but yesterday I held a Ruger SR9 ($499 NIB =O btw) and it was just begging to follow me home. The grip was so slender that my jaws dropped when I saw the double stack mag. That's when I realized, that now I've got my feet wet, I'm looking into comfort of all things. So as far as HK and Glocks... for comfort, I can't think of a single person that would prefer a Glock over an HK. Yes the USP fullsize isn't very ergonomic but compared to a Glock, it's like holding a baseball bat over a 2x4... ok not really but you get my point. =P
Also, I don't quite understand Glock owners that say, "I don't believe in a safety." or "DA isn't for me." Well, at least with my USP in Variant 1, I can leave it cocked and locked with the safety off, which is pretty much how Glocks are. But I can also leave it cocked and locked with a safety on, much like how the GI's have been carrying their beloved 1911 for so many years, AND I have the option of decocking it and carrying it with the safety off for a much stouter trigger pull, like a Sig DAK or HK LEM or even my Kahr PM9 (albeit it's a heavier, real DA pull and with this method after the first DA shot it reverts to a light SA follow up), which is pretty much the accepted, lawyered, carry method for so many agencies. Shoot, I can even carry decocked with the safety on if I was someone paranoid and learning to carry for the first time without a good holster.
And if you're another Glock owner that says, "I don't want to have all those levers and do dads and I just want to be able to draw my weapon and shoot without thinking." well... I don't want to blatantly call you a simpleton but if you practice your preferred carry method with an HK, there's nothing to think about. If I carry my V1 cocked and locked with safety off, I'm carrying it just like you're carrying your Glock. Just draw and fire.
Also, I don't quite understand Glock owners that say, "I don't believe in a safety." or "DA isn't for me." Well, at least with my USP in Variant 1, I can leave it cocked and locked with the safety off, which is pretty much how Glocks are. But I can also leave it cocked and locked with a safety on, much like how the GI's have been carrying their beloved 1911 for so many years, AND I have the option of decocking it and carrying it with the safety off for a much stouter trigger pull, like a Sig DAK or HK LEM or even my Kahr PM9 (albeit it's a heavier, real DA pull and with this method after the first DA shot it reverts to a light SA follow up), which is pretty much the accepted, lawyered, carry method for so many agencies. Shoot, I can even carry decocked with the safety on if I was someone paranoid and learning to carry for the first time without a good holster.
And if you're another Glock owner that says, "I don't want to have all those levers and do dads and I just want to be able to draw my weapon and shoot without thinking." well... I don't want to blatantly call you a simpleton but if you practice your preferred carry method with an HK, there's nothing to think about. If I carry my V1 cocked and locked with safety off, I'm carrying it just like you're carrying your Glock. Just draw and fire.
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Dan Crocker
Member
I don't like paying another $400 bucks for a gun that won't do anything that my XD 45 or my Glock 19 can't do.
I've shot several Heckler and Koch pistols and really, really enjoyed them. They are marvelous guns and I would trust my life to one in a heartbeat. I do like the variety that the safety/decocker adds. But I just can't justify the extra cash I'd have to shell out to own one. I don't see myself getting another $400 bucks of pistol out of it, then with how ungodly expensive the mags are on top of that.
I've shot several Heckler and Koch pistols and really, really enjoyed them. They are marvelous guns and I would trust my life to one in a heartbeat. I do like the variety that the safety/decocker adds. But I just can't justify the extra cash I'd have to shell out to own one. I don't see myself getting another $400 bucks of pistol out of it, then with how ungodly expensive the mags are on top of that.
ScareyH22A
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CDNN has some mags for $20.
X-Rap
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The cost is a primary point for me. If function and quality were different then the price difference would be relevant.
Factory mags for Glock are still under $25 and before the panic 1/2 that. I have never seen factory H&K for my USP that were hi cap for under $35.
The 10 rd are around $15 and given there is only 2 shots more I have stocked up on those.
Both guns have their strong pts. the cost if I were buying today would dictate my choice.
Factory mags for Glock are still under $25 and before the panic 1/2 that. I have never seen factory H&K for my USP that were hi cap for under $35.
The 10 rd are around $15 and given there is only 2 shots more I have stocked up on those.
Both guns have their strong pts. the cost if I were buying today would dictate my choice.
SwampWolf
Member
Not many GIs I knew of "legally" carried their 1911s "cocked and locked". I served four years in the military police and we were required to carry our issued 1911s with a loaded magazine and the chamber empty. Of course, that was a long time ago...
X-Rap
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My dad tells about how they would practice their draw and force the slide back by pushing down on their leg with the top of the slide. Lucky there weren't more ND's.
To this day he won't carry a 1911 in condition 1. They must have pounded that training good.
To this day he won't carry a 1911 in condition 1
. They must have pounded that training good.Price as a reason is foolish if you truely like the way it shoots.
Here's the math. I went and looked up prices for a Glock 19 and HK P30 that were reasonable if bought new.
Glock 19 = $500 and HK P30 = $850
Feel free to argue, but wait...
Take a use of 50,000 rounds where major parts will probably need to be replaced. At that point for $10/50 rounds of 9mm (keeps math simple) that is $10,000.
After 50,000 round the cost of the Glock is about .5% ($500 of $10,500) and .8% of the HK ($850 of $10,850).
So unless you don't put rounds through your gun and get use out of it price may be a factor. Otherwise for someone who uses their gun it's a silly point. For more expensive ammo it's magnified and unless your gun was thousands the purchase price is minimal.
Mag prices? Reread the above and think... if you need loads of mags I doubt you're someone not using your gun. It's still a small portion of the investment.
It's like the price of gas and a hybrid car argument... do the math yourself.
Here's the math. I went and looked up prices for a Glock 19 and HK P30 that were reasonable if bought new.
Glock 19 = $500 and HK P30 = $850
Feel free to argue, but wait...
Take a use of 50,000 rounds where major parts will probably need to be replaced. At that point for $10/50 rounds of 9mm (keeps math simple) that is $10,000.
After 50,000 round the cost of the Glock is about .5% ($500 of $10,500) and .8% of the HK ($850 of $10,850).
So unless you don't put rounds through your gun and get use out of it price may be a factor. Otherwise for someone who uses their gun it's a silly point. For more expensive ammo it's magnified and unless your gun was thousands the purchase price is minimal.
Mag prices? Reread the above and think... if you need loads of mags I doubt you're someone not using your gun. It's still a small portion of the investment.
It's like the price of gas and a hybrid car argument... do the math yourself.
Dan Crocker
Member
Oh wow great! You changed my mind, anyone want to buy my Glock? I do like the way it shoots and I think it's a great gun, but still, I don't think it performs $400 dollars better than a Glock or XD. I bought my XD for $450 and my Glock for $485. I'm sure someday I'll get an HK (because I suck and I hate myself,) but not right now.
You make a fine argument for someone who is going to shoot 50k of rounds through their guns. I'm having enough trouble finding ammo now so I've cut back big time on how much I shoot.
You make a fine argument for someone who is going to shoot 50k of rounds through their guns. I'm having enough trouble finding ammo now so I've cut back big time on how much I shoot.
X-Rap
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That is a fair argument but looses some traction as more guns are added to the mix. I doubt that I will hit that round count with a single gun in quite a few years but have some that will use the same mags, holsters, barrels, attachments and ammo so that all becomes a factor when considering the cost of a particular weapon.
If I were to be tasked with only choosing 1 as is brought up often in these threads then yes I agree price would really be of little matter.
If I were to be tasked with only choosing 1 as is brought up often in these threads then yes I agree price would really be of little matter.
I don't see it as an end all either... there are other factors. I was just trying to put it in perspective. Even if you never reach that high of a round count I bet you'll go through enough that the price difference is minimal. Most people see it as isolated where it's not.
"$400 dollars better than a Glock or XD" is opinion based. I respect that, but was trying to show the reasoning that a dollar argument is a little useless. That says I don't place value on the differing features and is really not a money issue IMO.
Now if another gun had the same features or more at a lower cost or similar, then the argument gets fun! Like I told a friend to try an XD or M&P in addition to the Glock. He isn't buying the Glock, lol.
But if we play the "is it worth" game...
For me the HK was worth the extra. Not even applied to an HK, how about the XDM? Is it worth the extra $100... maybe not to you but to me I would buy it in a heartbeat if the choice was Glock, XD and XDM. If I ever want to buy another fullsize it's next up for me.
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After reading all of my post it's funny how we diverge. They're all reliable and we just like to draw out the details.
"$400 dollars better than a Glock or XD" is opinion based. I respect that, but was trying to show the reasoning that a dollar argument is a little useless. That says I don't place value on the differing features and is really not a money issue IMO.
Now if another gun had the same features or more at a lower cost or similar, then the argument gets fun! Like I told a friend to try an XD or M&P in addition to the Glock. He isn't buying the Glock, lol.
But if we play the "is it worth" game...
For me the HK was worth the extra. Not even applied to an HK, how about the XDM? Is it worth the extra $100... maybe not to you but to me I would buy it in a heartbeat if the choice was Glock, XD and XDM. If I ever want to buy another fullsize it's next up for me.
---------
After reading all of my post it's funny how we diverge. They're all reliable and we just like to draw out the details.
Dan Crocker
Member
I don't think that the XDM is worth another hundred over the standard XD. I agree that it's more comfortable and that it's what the XD should be, but I really don't think that another hundred bucks of materials or craftsmanship goes into it. I'm wondering if they'll put more rounds into their .45 XDM when (if) it comes out...personally I think 13 is good enough.
To the OP:
You have the question backwards.
The correct question is, "is a glock as realiable as and HK".
The answer is no, by the way. Two different levels of handgun.
The HK is the toughest, best made production polymer framed handgun on earth, bar none. It is made to stand up to the absolute worst abuse, and the most overcharged rounds, and come through with flying colors. The torture testing the USP went through has never been duplicated by any other handgun. I have owned both brands. My glock 20 had its magazines fall apart after 600 rounds, and it started to jam. My HK USP is the most solid gun I have ever seen. The HK 45 is the only mass production / polymer frame 45 that is "OK" for 45 super loads.
As far as reliability only a classic GERMAN SIG Sauer pistol can match an HK, and I won't vouch for the new American made SIGs since I don't buy them, just the older German models.
You have the question backwards.
The correct question is, "is a glock as realiable as and HK".
The answer is no, by the way. Two different levels of handgun.
The HK is the toughest, best made production polymer framed handgun on earth, bar none. It is made to stand up to the absolute worst abuse, and the most overcharged rounds, and come through with flying colors. The torture testing the USP went through has never been duplicated by any other handgun. I have owned both brands. My glock 20 had its magazines fall apart after 600 rounds, and it started to jam. My HK USP is the most solid gun I have ever seen. The HK 45 is the only mass production / polymer frame 45 that is "OK" for 45 super loads.
As far as reliability only a classic GERMAN SIG Sauer pistol can match an HK, and I won't vouch for the new American made SIGs since I don't buy them, just the older German models.
Zerodefect
member
I'm Glad someone likes thier HK. Hopefully I'll get my hands on a good one eventually.
Forget about the Sig. They're reliable sometimes just like a most 1911's. Some Sigs are 1911's! Not in Glock, HK, FN land as far as reliability in my experience.
Whats up with the KB argument? Thats what happens when you use weak reloaded caseings, doulble charge, or rechamber the same round over and over again messing up the setback. I still haven't seen any Glocks KB. ( or malfuntion)
Forget about the Sig. They're reliable sometimes just like a most 1911's. Some Sigs are 1911's! Not in Glock, HK, FN land as far as reliability in my experience.
Whats up with the KB argument? Thats what happens when you use weak reloaded caseings, doulble charge, or rechamber the same round over and over again messing up the setback. I still haven't seen any Glocks KB. ( or malfuntion)
the only torture test that concerns me is round count/drop test.cost(+/- couple of hundred dollars) doesn't really matter because i burn alot of ammo.no external safetys as well as anything that can snag clothing.also i like being able to modify/replace any part of my pistol with one tool.decades of proven track record doesn't hurt either.as well as shooting them personaly for 17 years, several different models and about a dozen different types of sd ammo.only problem i ever encountered was a first gen 17 with corbon.accuracy...what quality modern combat pistol isn't accurate enough?backstraps,etc. are cool but i prefer being able to shoot three different calibers with one gun(and 2 extra barrels,one extra mag)catastophic failures aside,being able to clear jams should be second nature to anyone owning a pistol for self defense.
punkndisorderly
Member
I had a USP .45 several years ago. I ended up selling it to a buddy after about a thousand rounds through it. I was super anal about cleaning it (those things aren't cheap). The buddy took possession of it at the range and we (along with the help of his very large family) ran about 500 rounds through it in short order. He decided to see how long he could go without cleaining it before problems started occuring. The guilt got to him before he had any problems and cleaned it after 1500 rounds or so.
ScareyH22A
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As for cost, I guess if you put it that way with ammo, I purchased my HK USP NIB about 1.5 months ago and put around 1600-1800rds through it. That's around $350 in ammo alone. I've shot only FMJ WWB, Blazer Brass, and UMC's with no FTE's or FTF's btw. But really, price is a moot point at best if you shoot a lot.
SIGs are reliable sometimes? I've been shooting them for 20 years, and so have my friends. We have our own little love affair with them I guess. I have yet to see any of our 220's or 225's jam after tens of thousands of rounds, four calibers.
Now that SIGs are being made by a bunch of lazy (probably unionized) Americans, who knows though. I have heard of problems with the newer ones, and I don't care for American made guns, too many problems. I have yet to see a German made SIG with folded metal slide jam though. They are actually pretty well known for reliability, and it's sad to see them being made here now. The heavy stainless slides are too heavy as well and throw the balance off. No substitute for old ones. Ever heard of a SIG 210? What glock exactly is of that level? None. It is considered one of the finest if not the finest handgun ever made. There are some awesome SIG's, you just have to know which ones to buy.
I have never understood the HK bashing. HK is simply an outstanding weapon, and if you have one that is jamming, you need to learn how to grip a handgun properly, or take a close at the ammo you are using, it isn't the gun. Take a close look at the testing they have been put through and the results, outstanding is probably an understatement. Now if you don't like the way they point or feel, or like the weird mag button, join the club. I don't either. They are blocky, strange looking guns, with a few odd features to be sure. And tough or not I don't care for four little tiny pieces of metal being all that the slide rides on. Perfect? No. But they are tough, reliable, top notch weapons, whether they happen to be your cup of tea or not.
Glocks are cheap, but for the money, you are getting a pretty damn solid pistol, so long as you stay away from 10mm, where they fall apart into pieces. Proven on the street by countless cops, they do work very well, but there is no way any gun expert would put them on the same level as a HK. Sorry. Street rookies use glocks, special forces use HK. There are reasons for this.
Now that SIGs are being made by a bunch of lazy (probably unionized) Americans, who knows though. I have heard of problems with the newer ones, and I don't care for American made guns, too many problems. I have yet to see a German made SIG with folded metal slide jam though. They are actually pretty well known for reliability, and it's sad to see them being made here now. The heavy stainless slides are too heavy as well and throw the balance off. No substitute for old ones. Ever heard of a SIG 210? What glock exactly is of that level? None. It is considered one of the finest if not the finest handgun ever made. There are some awesome SIG's, you just have to know which ones to buy.
I have never understood the HK bashing. HK is simply an outstanding weapon, and if you have one that is jamming, you need to learn how to grip a handgun properly, or take a close at the ammo you are using, it isn't the gun. Take a close look at the testing they have been put through and the results, outstanding is probably an understatement. Now if you don't like the way they point or feel, or like the weird mag button, join the club. I don't either. They are blocky, strange looking guns, with a few odd features to be sure. And tough or not I don't care for four little tiny pieces of metal being all that the slide rides on. Perfect? No. But they are tough, reliable, top notch weapons, whether they happen to be your cup of tea or not.
Glocks are cheap, but for the money, you are getting a pretty damn solid pistol, so long as you stay away from 10mm, where they fall apart into pieces. Proven on the street by countless cops, they do work very well, but there is no way any gun expert would put them on the same level as a HK. Sorry. Street rookies use glocks, special forces use HK. There are reasons for this.
street rookies use glocks?what about seasoned ones,do they switch once their experienced?btw, you might want to research a little about what sf actually carries.there are numerous threads on this responded to by those very same individuals.(there are alot of vets on thr)the only sf soldier i ever shot with was using a glock 22,i don't know what he carried in the field though.
btw, you might want to research a little about what sf actually carries.there are numerous threads on this responded to by those very same individuals.(there are alot of vets on thr)the only sf soldier i ever shot with was using a glock 22,i don't know what he carried in the field though.The only torture test that has ever impressed me was the one used to prove the HK Mark 23 SOCOM.
BTW Glocks ARE Volkswagons. That's why there are so many of them. Ever see the VW lemon Beetle AD? Sounds like the 1950's version of Glock Perfection to me!
BTW Glocks ARE Volkswagons. That's why there are so many of them. Ever see the VW lemon Beetle AD? Sounds like the 1950's version of Glock Perfection to me!
ScareyH22A
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Glocks seem to be the no frills, no nonsense, pistol. But if you want niceties, you need to look elsewhere.
The market for Glocks seem to be dwindling. A lot of people including law enforcement are switching to guns with a longer DA trigger or safety. It makes perfect sense due to less chance of accidental discharge. It may suck for the guys that have good trigger and carry discipline but it's not a risk that a lot of departments will take. And for the average Joe, we're usually not as proficient in firearms as a law enforcement agent, that I learned after finding out how much and how seriously my bud trains, so a lot of us tend to sway towards a "safer" firearm.
Take the newish Springfield XD's for example. It is a lot like a Glock but with loaded chamber and firing pin indicator AS WELL AS a grip safety. IMHO, it's the new and improved Glock.
As for me, I carry a firearm with no safety but it does come with a DA trigger so I feel relatively safe with it.
The market for Glocks seem to be dwindling. A lot of people including law enforcement are switching to guns with a longer DA trigger or safety. It makes perfect sense due to less chance of accidental discharge. It may suck for the guys that have good trigger and carry discipline but it's not a risk that a lot of departments will take. And for the average Joe, we're usually not as proficient in firearms as a law enforcement agent, that I learned after finding out how much and how seriously my bud trains, so a lot of us tend to sway towards a "safer" firearm.
Take the newish Springfield XD's for example. It is a lot like a Glock but with loaded chamber and firing pin indicator AS WELL AS a grip safety. IMHO, it's the new and improved Glock.
As for me, I carry a firearm with no safety but it does come with a DA trigger so I feel relatively safe with it.
Dan Crocker
Member
The Glock has both a loaded chamber indicator and a firing pin (cocked) indicator. The external extractor is flush when no round is in the tube, and protrudes when a round is chambered. When the trigger is forward it's cocked, when it's back, it's not. I like those features on my XD, but they are also present on my Glock. Just in a more traditional way.
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