Are malfunctions more or less likely in self-defense?

[JohnKSa]

I was reading an article in which the author made the comment that malfunctions occur more often in gunfights than when shooting at the range.

It's a simple statement and one that most people can easily recognize as true.

In a self-defense encounter a defender:

• May need to draw the gun in a hurry rather than taking the time to get a perfect grip--or may even need to draw with the weak-hand.
  
• May need to shoot one-handed instead of being able to take a good two-handed grip.
• May need to shoot weak-handed.
• Is likely to be focused on other things and not be paying close attention to perfect shooting form.
  
• May grasp the gun more firmly than normal. I've seen video showing a police officer inadvertently drop a magazine TWICE during the same shooting--likely due to grasping the gun with a death grip and inadvertently squeezing the mag release hard enough to drop the mag.
• May drop the gun and get it dirty or wet or muddy.
• May be injured and get blood or meat or bone onto the gun which could affect function, the ability to reload or the ability to grip and operate the gun. During the Miami FBI shootout, one agent had to reload a revolver with a bad hand injury but tissue, blood and bone from his injured hand jammed the mechanism preventing him from completing the reload. He was shot and left for dead.
• Guns can be damaged during gunfights, or malfunctions may be directly induced by physical contact with the attacker or with cover/concealment.
  
• Normal operation of the firearm may be complicated by having to perform functions such as reloads or malfunctions one-handed--that could induce additional malfunctions.

So what's the point?

• Even if your gun NEVER malfunctions--and I know we hear a lot about guns like that--it's still important to train to deal with malfunctions.
• It's important to try shooting weak-handed and one-handed so you have an idea how your gun will function under those conditions. Competition is a great way to test this kind of function where there are additional pressures and distractions that can mimic (to at least some very small extent) the pressures and distractions of a gunfight. At the very least, a shooter could try some one-handed/weak-handed drills at the end of a long shooting session to see what happens when there's a bit of fatigue involved.
  
• Even if you think you have enough ammo to get through a self-defense encounter, carrying an extra mag might be a smart idea to help deal with things like inadvertently dropped magazines, certain types of malfunctions or damage to the firearm/magazine.

I'm not going to claim that this is an exhaustive treatment of the topic--you may be able to come up with more things to add to both lists. Think about your specific situation and how the general principles may apply to you.

 

[Jeff White]

I think that this trend really started when people shifted to autos from revolvers. Autos are sensitive and will malfunction from bad grips resulting in "limp wristing". It all comes down to training. Train on your draw and grip enough and it won't be a problem. Train on reloads and it won't be a problem. I've seen a lot of malfunctions in training were the shooter was firing from a non-standard position to stay behind cover.

 

[FL-NC]

With the exception of shooting a gun until it was empty, and the MK19 automatic grenade launcher, I have never had one malfunction in a real gunfight. Also, our weapons were gone over with a fine tooth comb for any possible deficiencies and those parts were replaced prior to deployment, or even replacing the entire weapon. Also all of our weapons on deployment (and every other piece of equipment) were always kept in an immaculate state of readiness. Most all of my malfunctions with small arms have been on the range after copious amounts of training resulting in a very filthy gun, or with weapons that were just worn out from extensive training and hadn't been repaired. Guns in military schools (at least in the army) not earmarked for deployment are often used until they break/just don't work any more.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

With the exception of shooting a gun until it was empty, and the MK19 automatic grenade launcher, I have never had one malfunction in a real gunfight. Also, our weapons were gone over with a fine tooth comb for any possible deficiencies and those parts were replaced prior to deployment, or even replacing the entire weapon. Also all of our weapons on deployment (and every other piece of equipment) were always kept in an immaculate state of readiness. Most all of my malfunctions with small arms have been on the range after copious amounts of training resulting in a very filthy gun, or with weapons that were just worn out from extensive training and hadn't been repaired. Guns in military schools (at least in the army) not earmarked for deployment are often used until they break/just don't work any more.

Did any of your shootings involve shooting a handgun at a spontaneous threat? With multiple assailants? With hollowpoint ammunition? With an injury that caused weakness or compromised grip?

 

[JohnKSa]

I have never had one malfunction in a real gunfight.

Just for clarification, would you say it is more likely:

• To have a firearm or a hand shot at the range or during a gunfight?
• To have to shoot from unorthodox positions during a gunfight or at the range?
• To drop a firearm during a gunfight or at the range?

And, from a practical perspective, do you feel that based on your real-world experience:

• If a gun never malfunctions at the range, you would advise not training to deal with malfunctions?
• That you would advising not training to operate a handgun one-handed or weak-handed?
• It is not worthwhile to carry a spare mag to deal with mag-related malfunctions or potential damage?

 

[aaaaa]

One reason for a rough surface (knurled?) area on the grip is to make sure you can grip it if there is blood on your hand. What about the trigger? Should the trigger face be knurled too?

Speaking of accidentally ejecting the magazine, When my son and I got our first handguns (his first gun ever), our first time at the range, he kept ejecting the magazine at first. I have not had that problem, but it is definitely something to consider. As for reload, I understand that most SD events are over before the gun is empty, even with a revolver. Reloading may not be as important as it is said to be, but I like the New York reload and, if I were to carry, I think I would carry a revolver with a small semi-auto backup. Probably still carry extra ammo for the revolver, and maybe also a second magazine.

 

[Ethan Verity]

Makes sense to me, and I see that a lot of those malfunctions listed are limp wrist malfunctions from the unpredictable conditions... one of my requirements for a carry auto is that it be very resistant to limp wristing... I sometimes purposely try to limp wrist my carry autos, to the point of practically smacking myself in the forehead with every shot.... all my S&W M&P models pass this test flawlessly, so do some of the other autoloaders I carry, like the LCP.... enough to convince me that the limp wrist malfunction in a handgun should not be acceptable at all. Glocks have a hard time passing the limp wrist test, which is part of why I don't carry any.

 

[entropy]

Most of the malfunctions I see in footage of robberies/ self defense situations, criminals are much more likely to have malfunctions, mostly due to lack of knowledge of firearms basics, and of the one in their hand in particular.

 

[reloaded_in_pa]

With the stress, lack of time to process & react, and adrenaline.... I would think the most malfunctions would come from the shooter, not the firearm.

 

[lemaymiami]

I have a slightly different point of view - I'd call it operator screw-ups instead of malfunctions when someone under very high stress has a "malfunction". Under severe stress (like an armed confrontation when your heart has managed to get up into your throat...) any of us can screw up - that's why we train and practice, train and practice so that we're much more likely to do the right thing and not shoot off a toe or something more intimate when drawing and firing under severe stress....

Serious business having someone aiming a firearm in your direction and your response, fight or flight, has you down to tunnel vision and hearing impairment... among other more embarrassing problems. On more than one occasion after a real life shooting I've been able to pick out the shooter of any auto pistol by simply examining their hands on the scene... Very common (even among trained shooters) to find slide cuts inside the thumb of their shooting hand. Yep, that's exactly what happens when under high stress a shooter grips the sidearm with his (or her) hand too high allowing their thumb to get cut by action of the slide... One of those slide cuts was on one of our detectives who'd already survived two gunfights where he killed his opponent. On his third, and last encounter, he received a slide cut from his Walther PPK while taking care of business - his opponent did not survive so in spite of a "screw up" he did successfully respond... This was back in the eighties down here in paradise when the cocaine wars were in full swing and things could get interesting for anyone working narcotics...

 

[aaaaa]

This 1 minute video was posted on another thread, but is interesting because the cop has to tap and rack partway through firing 13 rounds to stop a knife wielding attacker. I don't know why the gun jammed or if it was a dud or what, but the cop really did this as second nature, which is something we all should practice by adding a snap cap in the magazine (preferably by a friend so we don't know when it is coming).

 

[FL-NC]

Did any of your shootings involve shooting a handgun at a spontaneous threat? With multiple assailants? With hollowpoint ammunition? With an injury that caused weakness or compromised grip?

I've had things like this happen but never all of them at the same time.

 

[FL-NC]

Answers in red.

Just for clarification, would you say it is more likely:

• To have a firearm or a hand shot at the range or during a gunfight? Obviously if people/things other than a target are shot at a range, it is (hopefully) due to some sort of accident/error, vs the infinite number of various things that just happen in any type of fight
• To have to shoot from unorthodox positions during a gunfight or at the range? If I'm at the range I train for a "core" group of scenarios that include things like unorthodox/compromised positions. Sports like multi-gun, IDPA, etc. feature such shooting problems.
• To drop a firearm during a gunfight or at the range? Dropping something is an accident. In the culture I grew up in, dropping a gun was/is considered a not good thing. Dropping a loaded firearm on a range is considered a safety violation, and will get you kicked out of any match I have competed in. I like to think that training good firearm habits every time you handle a firearm prevents this. I frequently drop objects in my daily life, yet I have rarely ever dropped a firearm and I handle them daily.

And, from a practical perspective, do you feel that based on your real-world experience:

• If a gun never malfunctions at the range, you would advise not training to deal with malfunctions? Training for various contingencies is never a bad thing. Most people (myself included) have plenty of room for improvement just hitting a target under artificial stress in a tactically efficient manner, esp. given limited access to crucial things like training ammo. I do include some type of reload drill into every handgun training session.
• That you would advising not training to operate a handgun one-handed or weak-handed? This is a worthwhile area to train in, IMO. But I don't think great priority and resources should be invested in it until a shooter is good at the basics, using 2 hands, with the gun in the dominant hand.
• It is not worthwhile to carry a spare mag to deal with mag-related malfunctions or potential damage? The pistols that I carry hold 8 rounds. I carry a spare mag. If I were carrying a Glock 19 with only the mag that is in it, I have the same amount of ammo (-1) as 2 8 round mags for the other guns. I also have a larger, heavier package to deal with. As boringly reliable as a Glock 19 using a factory mag is, I personally wouldn't stress too about mag related issues. I cite the Glock 19 as that is what I have, along with a shield 9 and a rarely-if ever carried 1911 compact lightweight pistol (my 8 round pistols).

 

[film495]

no idea, but this is why you go to the range and work the kinds out of the firearm and test it, and test yourself while you're at it. does leaving the safety on at the range count as a malfunction? I've done it, and seen quite a few others do it also. do things like that at the range and work through the manual of arms and less likely to happen live. also, I have some firearms that are not going to work at all, with some ammo. Maybe you'll get a few rounds off before it jams maybe you wont. Different ammo, those firearms run 100%. I don't view that as a firearm malfunction, per say, I was just testing different ammo brands to find ones my firearms really liked, and I carry those. So, the theory here is a bit mixed up IMHO, we all have "malfunctions" at the range of one type or another, but that is the whole point of function testing your gear, and practicing.

practice 'tap, wrack, bang' and clearing jams. it must have taken me 5 minutes to clear a nosedive jam once on a pistol that did not like a brand of ammo the first time I really got that kind of a jam. that same jam, now takes about 2 seconds to clear and be back in action. I still have some of that ammo, and shoot it out of that firearm, just cause I know it will jam, and I have to drop the mag, rack it clear - then 'tap, wrack, bang' ... in a live situation a lot of people will freeze if you've never seen something before. Your brain has no basis on what to do. This is why some people who's throttle in a car sticks will end up going 100 miles and hour and crashing, when they could just turn off the ignition, or shift into neutral. At least a couple people every year meet their maker on snowmobiles from a stuck throttle, but - there is a kill switch and an ignition switch that cuts the engine instantly. I've had this happen to me on a sled, and got lucky. I own the sled in question and practice what to do, but then it happens, and you can't help it if your brain is stuck cuase you're immediate reaction is just confusion from something so unexpected.

 

[CDW4ME]

My gen 3 Glock 19 and 32 (357 Sig) use the same recoil spring.
I've seen (no link) the hypothesis that the extra slide velocity of 357 Sig could help if "weak wrist" / not perfect grip / one handed.

Unrelated to 357 Sig, I always carry a spare mag in case of malfunction.

 

[JJFitch]

If there really is a correlation between stress and fine motor skills, then yes!

Get training from a qualified defensive tactics firearms instructor. Practice, practice, practice and practice some more! Then maybe fine motor skills will not be an issue under stress.

Shooting games like USPSA, Actin Pistol and IDPA even at the club level all count towards practice!

Smiles,

 

[.455_Hunter]

I absolutely concur that a defensive encounter definitely increased chances of malfunction- inadvertent mag release and limp writing come to mind. We lost a local Police Officer in 1994 when her 9mm high-capacity platform jammed after firing 1 or 2 shots at an armed suspect. She had no BUG, and was executed cowering under a car. She had recently transitioned from a Model 15, which probably would not have jammed.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I know folks are gonna hate it but, all the more reason to get involved with competition shooting.

One handed shooting, whether strong or weak side, is commonplace. Clearing malfunctions is also to be expected.

Really though you could just practice these drills dry at home, or live if you have the capability.

But engaging in comp shooting instills something in you that you can't get running dry or live drills.

 

[mljdeckard]

I deployed in 2010 with dreadful weapons that should have been scrapped. Cold War-era M16A2s and worn-out M-9s. I suspect the reasoning was; "You're a support unit in the National Guard, deploying at the end of a war that's more or less finished. We're not giving you the good toys." (The rationale was that if we had both weapons, we could ditch our rifles in our secure facilities, and just carry pistols. Which we pretty much did.) Not only were my soldiers not fully trained in running a pistol, they weren't trained at all. Some of them had literally never fired a handgun. I took some of them that were willing on the weekend leading up to it to get some basics. Everyone got ten rounds of familiarization, then forty to qualify. (I believe all of them did.) The armorer deliberately gave me the worst ones, because he know I knew how to keep it running and deal with malfunctions if they happened. Did I like it? No. Would I rather have insisted on trading my pistol to someone else who DIDN'T know how to run it as well? Also no. I carried weapons I fully planned would fail under bad conditions.

So, would I have preferred to have a week at the range to train my guys in malfunction drills, one-handed reloads, and stress fire? Of course. I knew I wasn't going to get it. I didn't get to train them fully on plan A. I never even got a chance on plan B or C. And I was far more worried about my female soldiers being assaulted in on FOBs than I was about actual battles. Their situation was far more similar to civilian females carrying concealed and fighting off attackers than actual combat. We had two criminal attacks by other soldiers, no fire was exchanged with the enemy.

So yes, I absolutely think these are things everyone who carries in any situation needs to know and train.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I was reading an article in which the author made the comment that malfunctions occur more often in gunfights than when shooting at the range.

I don't doubt this at all.

However, does the author of the article discuss what types of malfunctions occur, why they happened, and how to prevent them?

I can think of several ways malfunctions may occur in actual self-defense scenarios, each having a different cause and resolution.

The obvious "limp wristing" has already been mentioned.

How about switching over to a self-defense ammo which hasn't been thoroughly vetted in the gun? Many people are a bit adverse to spending truckloads of money on self-defense ammo to be used as range ammo, and with good reason. But they OUGHT to spend at least a small wheelbarrow's worth to shoot enough to ensure there aren't any problems with it before carrying it in their weapons.

Then there's dirt and general care. How long has that firearam been carried around holstered without being wiped down and maybe oiled? I've been known to go many months before I get a chance at some range time, and in that time a huge amount of dust bunnies can take up residence in a carry piece. Depending on the environment one routinely carries in, there may be issues with sweat (salt), water, dust, dirt, sand, etc. A firearm doesn't necessarily require a full breakdown for cleaning, but it ought to be checked, wiped down, and lubrication applied if needed once in a while under these circumstances.

What about shifting grips under duress? What about the holsters themselves? What's the experience level of the individuals having the malfunctions?

How common were the various malfunctions?

It would be cool to know the author's take on these.

 

[JohnKSa]

The comment was just made in passing in the article, I can't really remember the primary focus of the article, but the author didn't dig deeply into the topic of this thread.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Thanks.

This would really be a cool thing to know, if any of us should happen across an article that digs a bit deeper on this. It would give un an idea of actual common malfunction and how we could direct our efforts to minimize them.

 

[loneviking]

Go over to the Active Self Protection channel on YouTube. I’ve watched a lot of self defense videos and it’s very rare for a citizen (not police) to have a malfunction. The most common ‘malfunction’ that gets people hurt or killed is not having a round in the chamber. That and trying to draw from the drop.

 

[Odd Job]

I bought a Vektor CP1 brand new, many moons ago in Johannesburg. With most ammo it performed fine at the range.
Then I went on a series of pistol courses where there were variables that put quite a lot of stress on the shooter. Shooting out of a car, moving to cover and engaging targets on the move. A bunch of scenarios and variables that would raise the eyebrows of any observers, from a health and safety point of view.
It was during one of those courses that I found out I could eject my own magazine unexpectedly, because the release was close to my right thumb and in some circumstances I released it. What was worse was the fact that the mag did not drop free, so the condition was discovered only when there was a click instead of a bang.
I tried to solve this by adjusting my grip but I could not, for various reasons.
The solution was to buy a left hand magazine release and activate that with my right index finger.
After that, I had no issues. But I wouldn't have found the issue unless I was put under pressure.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

It was during one of those courses that I found out I could eject my own magazine unexpectedly, because the release was close to my right thumb and in some circumstances I released it. What was worse was the fact that the mag did not drop free, so the condition was discovered only when there was a click instead of a bang.

I just recently bought a Walther CCP-M2+. I did have a couple events on the range where the magazine dropped out after I chambered the first round.

The fault was mine. The pistol grip is shorter than I'm used to, so I need to deliberately train myself to pay attention to ensure I've fully inserted a magazine every time, at least until it becomes "second nature" to do it correctly.

The lesson to take away here is that just because you may be proficient with one platform, that doesn't mean that your proficiency will adequately transfer to another platform without problems. So you can't take that for granted.