Glock 19 Limp Wrist/Problem Update

[Tirod]

I think that someone is making a mountain out of a molehill. Of the millions of incidents reported, it's still less than 2% of the public having an incident. Of those, the majority were solved by the presentation of the pistol before contact could happen. The average person was aware and uninjured.

Of the number who had to fire, most of the time the perp immediately left the vicinity, and few injuries are reported.

The odds are extremely small anyone would be not only attacked, but injured first. At that point it makes no difference what kind of gun you have, it can't be 100% handicapped accessible and usable. None are. It would require being able to fit over the hand to prevent it being loose in the grasp, and have a trigger pull measured in fractions of a ounce and tenths of an inch.

Injured finger, hand whatever.

Worry about the other 99% of what might happen, and that is likely a once in a lifetime experience at the worst.

It is telling that the German Police came up with a new requirement years back, that the gun had to be ready to fire instantly - and that the HK P7 was approved, which had a squeeze cocking mechanism. Something more than the trigger which was required to be manipulated to get the gun ready to fire. The Police are known to deal with confrontations and physical encounters on a much higher rate of incidence - they do the dirty work we no longer attempt.

If anyone was going to get injured, it's them, and it appears it's not much of a consideration, even by their standards. Same for our LEO's, if the Glock had a major problem with limp wristing, it's obvious that millions in service are still preferred.

There's no problem when the big picture is seen.

 

[GLOOB]

Another way to think about it is this:

The weight of a Glock frame is a very scant couple of oz. This is not enough mass to allow the gun to cycle reliably. But you have the requisite mass on you already, and you carry it everywhere you go. That mass is in your hand, so long as you can grip the gun halfway normally. If you can even grip it hard enough to pull the trigger, you are 90% there.

Since you have two hands, you already carry a backup, too.

If Glock sold a backstap that weighed 6 oz without bulking the gun up too much, would you put it on and carry that extra weight around for a "just in case" scenario?

If you can barely hang onto your gun, and you are at SD distances in imminent danger, you are in trouble, yes. You will use what tools you have to the best of your ability. If you have only one guaranteed shot, you will do your best to make that shot count. That might mean not even firing it.

I have read of one story, here, of an LE with a cadet or a ride-along, I can't remember. A criminal emptied a revolver into the LE at close range. Then he went into the cruiser to get the officer's own shotgun to finish the job. The LE was so badly hurt, he couldn't take the safety off of his Beretta. He instructed the other person with him to take the safety off and put it in back in his hands. The LE was able to end the threat.

I can't remember if it was the safety, or maybe he asked the other guy to cock the gun for him, even. Either way, LE was in bad shape and couldn't have used the gun by himself. I'd just file that under "stuff happens."

 

[GLOOB]

Whoa. I just came up with the next must-have tacticool Glock accessory.

The Glock Sock! TM is a must have accessory for your Glock.

The Glock Sock! TM is a super tough, tactical grade nylon bag that is filled with tactical grade birdshot.

You simply insert he Glock Sock! TM into the empty space in the grip, behind the magazine well. This prevents those borderline limpwrist malfunctions that occur in the highly likely event that you are injured in such a way that you can draw, grip, aim, and effectively lay down suppressive fire with your Glock, yet you can't hold it hard enough to cycle the gun.

The Glock Sock! TM also prevents unwanted dirt and debris from entering into the the grip frame.

You know if you run out of ammo, your gun is little more than a paperweight. With Glock Sock! TM, your paperweight is 3 oz heavier. Pistol whipping has never been so easy or effective. Watch how this 100 lb housewife easily breaks the nose of this 200 pound attacker!

Buy now, and get not one Glock Sock! TM, but two Glock Sock! TM's for one low price of $19.99. Call now, and have your credit card ready!

On a more serious note, some of the Glock grip reductions are done by filling that empty space in the frame with epoxy before reshaping. I wonder if anyone has ever put lead shot in there for this reason.

 

[Warp]

Sorry, but there is already a "glock sock", if you will.

I hear they are popular for competition shooters and/or people using the weakest possible reloads.

http://www.brownells.com/handgun-pa...attle-slug-mag-guide-for-glock--prod1407.aspx

 

[GLOOB]

Between that and a tungsten guide rod, OP should be good to go.

 

[SwampWolf]

Some people seem to be minimizing the very real possibility of getting a less than optimum grasp on their pistols during a life or death shoot-out. Getting a stress-induced pistol from the pocket or a holster when bullets are headed your way and/or having the grip of your strong hand compromised with sweat or blood is not such an unlikely event. It also appears that proponents of the Glock pistol seem to be the ones more prone to trivialize the "less than ideal" grip potentiality. As I've conceded earlier, I don't have much experience with the Glock pistol, having fired one (a Model 19) less than a couple of hundred times, during which limited time it performed flawlessly. And I have never viewed the U-Tube or whatever video that I've seen referenced in this thread and others (maybe I should take a peek at it sometime to see what apparently gets Glock aficionados so riled up about) concerning which pistols are more prone to limp-wristing than others (if that, in fact, is what is depicted).

But I will reiterate: if it is proven that some pistols are more prone to "limp-wristing" failures than others, everything else being equal (and I'm not saying that there necessarily are-I don't know); I have to ask, why in the world would I rely on them for defending my life or others when there are other affordable pistols readily available to me, that won't fail under the same circumstances?

 

[GLOOB]

But I will reiterate: if it is proven that some pistols are more prone to "limp-wristing" failures than others, everything else being equal (and I'm not saying that there necessarily are-I don't know); I have to ask, why in the world would I rely on them for defending my life or others when there are other affordable pistols readily available to me, that won't fail under the same circumstances?

You can make the same argument for safeties and/or heavy DA triggers. Like the LE incident I referred to in post 27. But ok, let's forget that. And blood or sweat is pretty unlikely to make this happen. We're talking specific localized neurological, muscular, tendon, joint and/or ligament damage, in my opinion. The kind that will impair your grip just enough you can still effectively aim and pull the trigger and maintain control of the gun for a second shot, but too weak to reliably cycle the gun. But, again, let's forget that.

If the OP is worried, he will make his own judgment call. I was not making light of it. I was putting it into perspective. For reals. If you want to carry around the extra weight, you have that option. I asked the question, would you do it? That's not rhetorical. Setting aside the cost, if you had option to change out your guide rod to tungsten and get a free slug plugamabob, would you stick those in your CCW which you carry around all day, every day, if it added 4-6 more oz of weight, but it eliminated the very small but theoretically real chance of injured-hand-limpwrist phenomenon?

Surely someone could make a slug plug cheaper if it were more popular. Maybe LE departments all over the world will start buying and installing such devices? I'm not making light. I'm trying to picture if this could actually catch on and happen. It might take one specific case where an LE's gun fails, like the Miami incident that made the FBI drop the 9mm. My gut says no on this because there's the tradeoff of weight, and it's not worth it to most people.

 

[Warp]

Some people seem to be minimizing the very real possibility of getting a less than optimum grasp on their pistols during a life or death shoot-out. Getting a stress-induced pistol from the pocket or a holster when bullets are headed your way and/or having the grip of your strong hand compromised with sweat or blood is not such an unlikely event. It also appears that proponents of the Glock pistol seem to be the ones more prone to trivialize the "less than ideal" grip potentiality. As I've conceded earlier, I don't have much experience with the Glock pistol, having fired one (a Model 19) less than a couple of hundred times, during which limited time it performed flawlessly. And I have never viewed the U-Tube or whatever video that I've seen referenced in this thread and others (maybe I should take a peek at it sometime to see what apparently gets Glock aficionados so riled up about) concerning which pistols are more prone to limp-wristing than others (if that, in fact, is what is depicted).

But I will reiterate: if it is proven that some pistols are more prone to "limp-wristing" failures than others, everything else being equal (and I'm not saying that there necessarily are-I don't know); I have to ask, why in the world would I rely on them for defending my life or others when there are other affordable pistols readily available to me, that won't fail under the same circumstances?

Dude...having sweat on your hands isn't going to cause a malfunction. Seriously.

PS: Some of us, myself included, have gone out in very hot weather under the sun during the summer and sweat quite a bit while shooting. It's not like sweating while holding a pistol is some strange new thing introduced for the first time with your life on the line.

Having liquids of any kind on your hand really isn't a big deal. You don't need to be gripping tightly down on the pistol. It's more important to simply have the mass of your hand/harm behind the slide. I mean...did you even see the video I posted barely holding the pistol at all? You think a sweaty hand will mean a looser and weaker grip than that? What?

 

[Tirod]

Some people seem to be minimizing the very real possibility of getting a less than optimum grasp on their pistols during a life or death shoot-out.

It's not minimizing it. We just aren't blowing it completely out of proportion.

As I said, millions of Glocks are in service. Taking just one anecdote described to me, an officer was in pursuit of a known felon who was fleeing a scene. He began negotiating back yards by jumping fences as the officer pursued on a warm summer night. Yard after yard in full open run, with the officer carrying his full basic load and vest, too. As he was catching up, he saw the perp glance behind and knew he was about to be attacked as soon as he cleared the next fence, and he was. There was a struggle, the officer ended it by drawing his service Glock and discharging it, stopping the fight.

A hot sweaty run, crossing obstacles, and he still didn't have any problem with the gun.

Internet concerns about real life situations, "life and death," and being SUDDENLY ATTACKED! are frequent on the web. If the Glock seems to be a huge problem child, buy one, get a 1,000 rounds of ammo, and spend some hot summer afternoons shooting it after you hand press 130 pounds repeatedly until fatigue sets in. Which describes something so out of the ordinary that it's not likely going to happen.

That's not minimizing it, it's putting it in it's place as an extremely low priority issue.

If limpwristing a firearm is the concern, then, it's not the gun at fault, it's the shooter. Get some grip strengtheners and work up to 145 pounds of grip. I could do it after two years on a 100 ton Amada brake press working steel. If your hands have so much strength that even being injured you can't limp wrist, then it's not a shooter error issue, where most of the problems arise in the first place. Not the gun. And train. Those who do, can shoot anything. Those who don't, can't even shoot the Glock right.

They limp wrist it.

 

[Theohazard]

JJ Alabama: Your concerns are completely unfounded. First, you had to try really hard to intentionally limp-wrist your Glock, which is actually quite an achievement; many people can't do it no mater how hard they try. Second, I'll bet you were using typical weak 115 gr. target ammo, which helped a lot; most target ammo is a lot softer-shooting than most defensive ammo, even the defensive ammo that's not +P. Softer-shooting ammo is far more prone to limp-wristing stoppages.

So let's be realistic here: In order to have a real-life limp-wrist stoppage in your Glock, you'll need to be shooting with your support hand only. Then that arm will need to be injured in a very specific way: your injury will have to weaken your arm and also require it to be bent a specific way (but you can't be injured too much, because then you couldn't grip the gun and press the trigger). Then you're going to need to be using weaker target ammo that doesn't cycle the slide as hard as normal defensive ammo. So what are the chances that all of that will happen at once?

In my opinion, many of the hypothetical defensive scenarios people come up with are too far-fetched to be worth considering. And this is one of them.

 

[JR24]

I'm going to reiterate my point from the last thread on this.

If it was sufficiently enough of an issue to risk lives, we would have heard about it from our collective friends/family/selves in LE. Considering how many LEO carry Glocks for duty and off duty. Those that I know who work in LE choose to carry Glocks off duty (19's and 23's mostly) when they own plenty of other options.

Good enough for me. That said, I prefer to carry .45 ACP

 

[jaysouth]

If anyone is driving through middle TN, call me and we will go to the range. I want you to show me how to "limp wrist" a Glock. I am apparently not bright enough to figure how to limp wrist one of my three model 19s over the past 20 years and thousand and thousands of cast bullet reloads. 124 gr. TC cast over 4.2 grs HP-38, which is a very tame load that is kind to my arthritis.

Maybe someday, I can figure out how to do this dreaded 'limp wrist'.

 

[GLOOB]

Oh, there is definitely limpwrist potential for some shooters. Small hands and light bone structure are trouble. The gen4's and the subcompacts are definitely more prone.

If you have big mitts, you will have a hard time limpwristing any Glock.

 

[Theohazard]

Small hands and light bone structure are trouble.

That alone isn't enough. You also need to have absolutely no idea how to properly hold a handgun.

 

[GLOOB]

Well, we're talking about potential. I think it's fair to say that some people with small hands and wrists have more limpwrist potential.

I have tried to get my Gen 3 G19 and G21 to limpwrist. I have never seen the G21 jam, yet, to date, other than a couple ammo related failures. I have been able to limpwrist my G19, but only when holding it 90 degrees to my body and actively anticipating and moving with the recoil. OTOH, I've seen my GF have a jam or two with the same G19 using a regular two hand shooting grip, albeit this was when she was relatively new to shooting.

Just because she knows how to shoot, now, (even her Gen4 is no problem) that doesn't mean she won't have a limpwrist with an injured hand or otherwise unorthodox grip that may be caused by stress or necessity.

We also have to realize that part of the resistance in you or I is our muscle tone. Even at rest, and actively relaxing, it's there. If we were to suffer some kind of nerve damage, we might learn how to limpwrist, too! You know how your mother or wife or GF is always asking you to open a jar for her? It's probably not to stroke your ego. It's because she can't do it, and she can't learn to do it! Without opportunity for a perfect grip, a limpwrist might be on the table.

My grip strength is freakish. Off the charts. I recently underwent rehab for a really bad hand injury. And towards the end, I was still in quite a bit of pain. But my grip strength in that hand was still not only higher than average, but higher than the strongest 25 yr old male PA in the group. Recently, I was showing my guns to my father. I was shocked when he couldn't pull the trigger on my GP100. He set it down and pretended he wasn't interested, and then he took a shine to the Glock, instead. I hope I live long enough to be a limpwrister due to natural causes. But it just might happen due to acute injury in a situation.

I know limpwrist malfunctions are possible, but I'm just not that worried for myself. Everyone is different.

 

[Theohazard]

We also have to realize that part of the resistance in you or I is our muscle tone. Even at rest, and actively relaxing, it's there. If we were to suffer some kind of nerve damage, we might learn how to limpwrist, too!

Maybe you're right, I honestly don't know if relaxing your muscles can simulate nerve damage. All I know is it took the wackiest, most ridiculous one-handed hold with my hand as low on the grip as possible in order to finally get a limp-wrist stoppage in my Glock 19.

 

[wanderinwalker]

To the OP, I think you'd be more comfortable with a revolver. It sounds like you're finding ways to doubt your choice of semi-auto. Trust me when I say, with enough creativity and trying hard enough, you can make any semi-auto malfunction.

Back to the Glock and limp-wrist susceptibility. I do believe because of the light polymer frame, a Glock is more prone to limp-wristing failure than some with a heavy steel frame like a 1911. That said, the only way I can make my Glock 17 reliably fail to feed or extract is to hold it upside down in my weak hand by my index finger and thumb, while squeezing the trigger with my pinky. (Yes, it looks just as ridiculous as it sounds, but it was interesting to try.) Oh, and that was shooting lightly powered reloads. Or maybe it was my Glock 26. I did the same test with both pistols on the same day.

Now if you have a flinch and happen to jerk back in recoil with the pistol, this will induce a failure to extract or feed pretty reliably too. But this is not a mechanical defect of the firearm, this is a deficiency with the shooter.

 

[jaysouth]

The op, if really interested, should work on his google-fu and learn how to use the search button above. This topic has been coming up about once a month for decades on this site alone.

I will guarantee you that NYPD would not be carrying over 20,000 Glock 19s if 'limp wrist' existed.

 

[RussellC]

I think most of the "limp wrist" stuff concerning Glocks is just mall ninja, "I gotta add this to a thread but have no experience with what I am talking about" attitudes. Like others here, I have tried, without success to induce it.

Maybe some need to check their wrists, not the gun! For the last time there is no proclivity for a Glock to perform like this. Otherwise they would never, never be used by so many military and L.E. groups. If you are having a "limp wrist" reaction with whatever firearm you use, maybe you just need to learn to use it, whether injured or not.

I can find not a single incident of where someone lost their life in a gun battle because their Glock limp wristed. Hate them or not, Glocks are one of the most reliable guns in this situation EVA!

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

The op, if really interested, should work on his google-fu and learn how to use the search button above. This topic has been coming up about once a month for decades on this site alone.

I will guarantee you that NYPD would not be carrying over 20,000 Glock 19s if 'limp wrist' existed.

What he said. +1 This is an overstated and unsubstantiated topic.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

To the OP, I think you'd be more comfortable with a revolver. It sounds like you're finding ways to doubt your choice of semi-auto. Trust me when I say, with enough creativity and trying hard enough, you can make any semi-auto malfunction.

Back to the Glock and limp-wrist susceptibility. I do believe because of the light polymer frame, a Glock is more prone to limp-wristing failure than some with a heavy steel frame like a 1911. That said, the only way I can make my Glock 17 reliably fail to feed or extract is to hold it upside down in my weak hand by my index finger and thumb, while squeezing the trigger with my pinky. (Yes, it looks just as ridiculous as it sounds, but it was interesting to try.) Oh, and that was shooting lightly powered reloads. Or maybe it was my Glock 26. I did the same test with both pistols on the same day.

Now if you have a flinch and happen to jerk back in recoil with the pistol, this will induce a failure to extract or feed pretty reliably too. But this is not a mechanical defect of the firearm, this is a deficiency with the shooter.

You say "more prone to" but then your own testing proves otherwise? Please clarify? Again, they are not prone to this, period. Now flame suit on, I have seen various 1911 guns have all sorts of failures, there are training methodologies designed to get around them, but all the love....why in the wide world of sports dont the military and law enforcement use them even a fraction as often as Glocks? You know why. Apologize for the off topic mention of the 1911, but it was in reference to Glock performance in the OPs original question. Dont mean to bash, I love 1911s...

Russellc

 

[GLOOB]

Easy, RusselC. No one is bashing Glocks in this thread.

If you are having a "limp wrist" reaction with whatever firearm you use, maybe you just need to learn to use it, whether injured or not.

If you are injured, you may not have time to relearn this while whoever injured you patiently waits. Your hand and arm can do funny things when injured. They will no longer do what you have trained them to do. Even a brisk strike to the right pressure point can temporarily make your arm or hand into a numb noodle, let alone suffering, say, a gunshot wound to the spine, neck, or somewhere in the brachial plexus that pervades the entire arm and shoulder. Arm surgery is one of the most complicated of all surgeries due to the size and complexity of the brachial plexus. If you are shot in the upper arm, you do not wrap it up and continue to use it, like in the movies.

Now, I don't think it's likely, at all. If you can't grip the gun strongly enough to cycle it, you probably cannot effectively aim or maintain control of the gun, anyway. But I can at least see where there's a chance, particularly with smaller-framed individuals. You might not even have your gun drawn by the time you are lying on the ground, bleeding, trying to regain your senses, and your arm is not doing what it's supposed to.

An acquaintance of mine was involved in a bar fight. Someone struck him from behind with a pool cue on top of the right shoulder, near the base of the neck. He couldn't move his arm for about a minute, and his strength came back, gradually.

 

[LouisianaAviator]

JJ Alabama, I understand where you're coming from, and I understand your concerns. I do the similar thing when I buy a new gun. I start to second guess myself and find imperfections with the weapon.

Theoretically, yes. You could, in short proximity, jerk back or something in a struggle or from injury as you shoot, which could cause a jam (although you should be using high quality self defense ammo, which will mitigate this possibility even more). With a 1911 you could accidentally flip the safety up theoretically, or not apply enough pressure to the grip safety theoretically. Or maybe it's very close quarters (as self defense shootings tend to be) and the back of the slide is pressed against you when you fire, or the muzzle pressed against your attacker that brings the pistol just out of battery so it won't function, theoretically.

Or maybe you're using a wheel gun and the bad guy simply grabs the cylinder, keeping it from turning. Or maybe you accidentally short stroke the trigger. Again, theoretically.

Every gun. Every gun can and probably will malfunction at some point, in certain conditions. If you've never had a jam, you haven't been shooting enough. What's more important than obsessing over the incredibly small possibility of this limp wrist situation is knowing how to clear a malfunction quickly.

This weapon that you have bought is one of the finest tools for self defense available. Thousands of men and women who put themselves in harm's way every day trust this model of handgun with their lives, and it doesn't let them down. Don't worry about limp wrist malfunctions. There are other, more important and insidious factors that could render you dead in a self defense situation, such as not hitting in a vital area to stop your attacker. Instead of concerning yourself with the non-factor of reliability concerns, you should concentrate on being able to put rounds on target effectively and quickly. That's what's going to make the difference between you being a statistic or a survivor.

Now go shoot and train, and congratulate yourself on purchasing one of the finest tools for self defense available!

 

[Warp]

If you are injured, you may not have time to relearn this while whoever injured you patiently waits.

A hell of a lot of people have used Glocks in a hell of a lot of defensive shootings and OIS's.

How many examples of this do we know of? There has been more than ample opportunity.

 

[JR24]

Another thought in regards to being too wounded to hold your gun anywhere near properly.

It is pretty likely if you have too little hand/arm strength to hold a Glock you are going to have a lot of trouble getting through a long DA pull from a DA/SA gun, DAO gun or revolver. Sure you might be able to thumb back a hammer, but if you can't even hold a Glock, you've got issues with just about any other pistol as well.