Are Modern Flintlocks produced
- Thread starter tacxted
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tacxted
Member
So, after some research via the links provided by everyone, I have gained a preference more towards the "trapper" 1820's style flintlocks over the 1700's era civil war muskets. At the time of my OP I don't think I could have known the difference, but now I do.
MEHavey put it this way,
and the light turned on in my head. So I did some searching and I think I found a good rifle/pistol combo that meets my value, fun, style and function requirements.
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Hawken-Woodsman-.50-cal-Flintlock-Select-Hardwood-Blued
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Trapper-Pistol-.50-cal-flintlock-select-hardwood-blued
I'm sure they are not 100% true to original form, but the price is right and workmanship, that I can tell through the computer, is quality. I emailed the company to ask if they sell the two in a kit build. I'd much like to say I've build a rifle.
Has anybody had hands on with these two? Ever hear bad stuff or positive about the company or their firearms. I'm not in a position to buy right now, I may change my mind later, but as of right now these look good.
MEHavey put it this way,
and the light turned on in my head. So I did some searching and I think I found a good rifle/pistol combo that meets my value, fun, style and function requirements.
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Hawken-Woodsman-.50-cal-Flintlock-Select-Hardwood-Blued
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Trapper-Pistol-.50-cal-flintlock-select-hardwood-blued
I'm sure they are not 100% true to original form, but the price is right and workmanship, that I can tell through the computer, is quality. I emailed the company to ask if they sell the two in a kit build. I'd much like to say I've build a rifle.
Has anybody had hands on with these two? Ever hear bad stuff or positive about the company or their firearms. I'm not in a position to buy right now, I may change my mind later, but as of right now these look good.
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JN01
Member
The biggest drawback to a cheap flintlock is the lock itself. The hammer needs to be properly positioned so that the flint hits the frizzen at the proper spot/angle on the frizzen. The frizzen must be properly hardened. The springs have to have the proper tension so that they don't chew up the flints too quickly, or not have enough oomph to give reliable ignition.
These qualities are often lacking in the imported guns. You would be better off saving your money for a semi-custom gun with a good lock (Chambers, Davis, L&R, etc), or go with a caplock (which wouldn't be historically correct to the earlier eras).
These qualities are often lacking in the imported guns. You would be better off saving your money for a semi-custom gun with a good lock (Chambers, Davis, L&R, etc), or go with a caplock (which wouldn't be historically correct to the earlier eras).
Jim Watson
Member
I would want an expert opinion on an inexpensive (relatively) flintlock.
You might be better off with percussion.
You might be better off with percussion.
I cannot speak for the Traditions, but I can speak for the Lyman Great Plains
(I have two, one percussion, one flint). They are each very competent rifles,
and equally competent locks (including the flint)
(50Yd)
You need to get good flints. None better than at
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/179/1/FLINTS
For a shade over $600 (+ship), it's a superb way to get into the game.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/536/1/LYMAN-GPR-50-F
(I have two, one percussion, one flint). They are each very competent rifles,
and equally competent locks (including the flint)
(50Yd)
You need to get good flints. None better than at
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/179/1/FLINTS
For a shade over $600 (+ship), it's a superb way to get into the game.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/536/1/LYMAN-GPR-50-F
D. Buck Stopshere
Member
Remember what I said about "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Both guns attracted your eye and wallet.
If you want to build a couple of kits, avoid the Spanish guns, and buy Italian guns. Specifically, those made by InvestArms in Italy.
In particular, since you want to build, "Invest" (excuse the pun) in a Lyman Great Plains Flint Rifle Kit, .50 caliber (or .54), Lyman catalog#6031114 & the Lyman Percussion (Not available in flint) Plains Pistol Kit, .50 caliber, Lyman catalog #6010610.
If you buy these kits (or finished), you will be "miles ahead" of the Traditions guns picked out. I have sold dozens and dozens of Lyman Great Plains rifles in flint and percussion in both calibers over the decades. I will not hesitate to buy mint condition used Lyman flint or percussion rifles if the price is right.
A Lyman GP rifle will shoot "cloverleaf" groups at 50-75 yards if you do your part.
IMHO, THE BEST INEXPENSIVE flintlock rifle, finished or kit, is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 or .54.
You should buy what appeals to you instead of me. Experiences teaches us lessons in life. Sometimes, the only way we learn is by buying according to our eyes and brain, and then educating ourselves by seeing more examples of better quality firearms, that in turn, captures our eye (& wallet). Time permits us to continue to "mature" to the point where we find ourselves finally satisfied with what we've got.
Folks don't just stand in awe looking at a longrifle or double barrel flint smoothbore, made by Jack Haugh, Judson Brennan, Mike Ehinger, or the late John Bivins. They have to go through the "maturing process" that starts with the Traditions or CVA or T/C firearms.
Along the way, they begin to get excited at Lyman or Pedersoli, or Uberti. Over time, they are captivated by work by the Caywood Brothers, Matt & Lori at TVM, & the Cabin Creek Shop.
Then, they reach the point where the works of the master gunmakers of the 20th & 21st century, some of whom I mentioned earlier, are within reach of the wallet.
Its hard to see quality on the screen, its easier to see it "in the flesh", but the eye & brain must be "educated" to tell the difference.
ZZZZZZZZZZZ. Everybody still awake????
If you want to build a couple of kits, avoid the Spanish guns, and buy Italian guns. Specifically, those made by InvestArms in Italy.
In particular, since you want to build, "Invest" (excuse the pun) in a Lyman Great Plains Flint Rifle Kit, .50 caliber (or .54), Lyman catalog#6031114 & the Lyman Percussion (Not available in flint) Plains Pistol Kit, .50 caliber, Lyman catalog #6010610.
If you buy these kits (or finished), you will be "miles ahead" of the Traditions guns picked out. I have sold dozens and dozens of Lyman Great Plains rifles in flint and percussion in both calibers over the decades. I will not hesitate to buy mint condition used Lyman flint or percussion rifles if the price is right.
A Lyman GP rifle will shoot "cloverleaf" groups at 50-75 yards if you do your part.
IMHO, THE BEST INEXPENSIVE flintlock rifle, finished or kit, is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 or .54.
You should buy what appeals to you instead of me. Experiences teaches us lessons in life. Sometimes, the only way we learn is by buying according to our eyes and brain, and then educating ourselves by seeing more examples of better quality firearms, that in turn, captures our eye (& wallet). Time permits us to continue to "mature" to the point where we find ourselves finally satisfied with what we've got.
Folks don't just stand in awe looking at a longrifle or double barrel flint smoothbore, made by Jack Haugh, Judson Brennan, Mike Ehinger, or the late John Bivins. They have to go through the "maturing process" that starts with the Traditions or CVA or T/C firearms.
Along the way, they begin to get excited at Lyman or Pedersoli, or Uberti. Over time, they are captivated by work by the Caywood Brothers, Matt & Lori at TVM, & the Cabin Creek Shop.
Then, they reach the point where the works of the master gunmakers of the 20th & 21st century, some of whom I mentioned earlier, are within reach of the wallet.
Its hard to see quality on the screen, its easier to see it "in the flesh", but the eye & brain must be "educated" to tell the difference.
ZZZZZZZZZZZ. Everybody still awake????
zimmerstutzen
Member
Militias existed as long as there were colonies. One rather well known Militia action was when the Sheriff of Baltimore and three hundred militia men invaded the lands contested between Maryland and Pennsylvania in the 1730's. Half of them went on to pillage and steal from those settlers having Pennsylvania Land warrants, under the guise of collecting unpaid ground rents owed to the Calverts. The remaining half systematically assisted Judge Cresap (appointed a Maryland Justice of the Peace) to throw the pennsylvanians off the west shore of the Susquehanna. Cresap had already killed a Pa Sheriff deputy and the council in Philadelphia was trying to raise a militia to force the invaders out, when the King in England put his foot down and "encouraged" a settlement. The guns used were a miscellaneous collection of privately owned arms and state supplied rusted old muskets. There is an inventory of the arms mentioned in state records at the Maryland Archives.
zimmerstutzen
Member
Another militia skirmish was the Battle of the Severn (1655)when the Governor of Maryland raised a militia to march on the Puritans at Providence near Annapolis to force them by arms to pay taxes to the proprietors (the Calverts) The Puritans got wind of their coming and marched out to meet them. The had a pitched three days battle along the Severn River with a couple of people killed and the Colonial Governor captured and then hung.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Severn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Severn
Buzzltronic
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2010
- Messages
- 7
It's interesting how the muskets were originally about .80 to even 1.00 and slowly shrunk to the .75 mark by the 1700s.
Getting hit by one of them must have packed an almighty wallop!
Getting hit by one of them must have packed an almighty wallop!
JDBoardman
Member
"Stand your ground. Do not fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, then let it begin here." These are the words of Capt. John Parker, Commander of the Militia at Lexington Green. When you shoot a flintlock musket or rifle, you are the heir to these words and the sentiment behind them. Choose well.
Hi, Driftwood,
I am sure you know more than I about the arming of the American rebels in Massachusetts, but I do find it hard to believe that local gunsmiths produced enough arms of any kind to supply the Colonial Army or even the early revolutionaries, or that there were enough arms in Boston at that time to supply the revolutionary movement with arms.
While undoubtedly many of those men had private weapons (which the Army also intended to seize if they were owned by rebels), everything I have read and learned indicates that arms for the militia were provided by the [British] government, and that those were standard muskets, not squirrel rifles or fowling pieces. If they were civilian rifles or shotguns, why would Mr. Davis provide bayonets, since there would have been no means of attaching them to fowlers. (And bayonets should have been included with muskets as part of militia stores.)
Further west (Western PA, Western MD, Western NY), where there was rarely an organized militia, the common civilian arms would have been rifles or fowlers, which were less effective in a military context because of the lack of bayonets and a means of attaching them. In addition, rifles were much slower to load than muskets, making them of little use in a face-to-face firefight. They were the "sniper rifles" of the day, useful in picking off individual targets, but not as good as the musket in closeup fighting.
Edited to add and correct. After further checking, it appears that MA did in fact require its militia members to provide their own muskets, unlike some other colonies which procured them from England or by colonial government purchase. But the arms were to be muskets of a standard bore, not rifles or shotguns.
Jim
I am sure you know more than I about the arming of the American rebels in Massachusetts, but I do find it hard to believe that local gunsmiths produced enough arms of any kind to supply the Colonial Army or even the early revolutionaries, or that there were enough arms in Boston at that time to supply the revolutionary movement with arms.
While undoubtedly many of those men had private weapons (which the Army also intended to seize if they were owned by rebels), everything I have read and learned indicates that arms for the militia were provided by the [British] government, and that those were standard muskets, not squirrel rifles or fowling pieces. If they were civilian rifles or shotguns, why would Mr. Davis provide bayonets, since there would have been no means of attaching them to fowlers. (And bayonets should have been included with muskets as part of militia stores.)
Further west (Western PA, Western MD, Western NY), where there was rarely an organized militia, the common civilian arms would have been rifles or fowlers, which were less effective in a military context because of the lack of bayonets and a means of attaching them. In addition, rifles were much slower to load than muskets, making them of little use in a face-to-face firefight. They were the "sniper rifles" of the day, useful in picking off individual targets, but not as good as the musket in closeup fighting.
Edited to add and correct. After further checking, it appears that MA did in fact require its militia members to provide their own muskets, unlike some other colonies which procured them from England or by colonial government purchase. But the arms were to be muskets of a standard bore, not rifles or shotguns.
Jim
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EljaySL
Member
I basically want to second post #31. I wouldn't go any cheaper than Lyman/Investarms but people are generally happy with those. I've made one of the great plains pistols in percussion and it was a lot of work but I'm very happy with it.
You should also poke around the Pedersoli catalog. They make some good stuff and some of it's available in kit form. The Kentucky Pistol in flint's even on sale at Dixie http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3528
I have one that's factory built (not the kit) and if you like the "pirate pistol" look that's pretty much it.
You should also poke around the Pedersoli catalog. They make some good stuff and some of it's available in kit form. The Kentucky Pistol in flint's even on sale at Dixie http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3528
I have one that's factory built (not the kit) and if you like the "pirate pistol" look that's pretty much it.
zimmerstutzen
Member
Jim K the fact that it was a non-government militia gathering stores and arms would tend to point to non standard non government issue.
A few months earlier, February 27, 1775 when the Brits tried to raid the stores at Salem, the Brits found themselves facing armed men and women across a small channel. Overwhelming odds and the brits backed down.
In Mass, the militia was required to provide their own firearm, except that a few who could not, were provided arms owned by the public.
One of the Brit officers after April 19, 1775, wrote that the colonials used long guns meant for ducking with better and more deadly effect than the British muskets.
A few months earlier, February 27, 1775 when the Brits tried to raid the stores at Salem, the Brits found themselves facing armed men and women across a small channel. Overwhelming odds and the brits backed down.
In Mass, the militia was required to provide their own firearm, except that a few who could not, were provided arms owned by the public.
One of the Brit officers after April 19, 1775, wrote that the colonials used long guns meant for ducking with better and more deadly effect than the British muskets.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I am currently reading a fascinating book about the eighteen months between the Boston Tea Party and the battle of Bunker Hill called 'Bunker Hill' by Nathaniel Philbrick. It is an in depth retelling of critical events that happened during that time.
Boston was an occupied city, with a garrison of British troops quartered in the city. The geography of Boston was very different than today, it was almost an island, only connected to the mainland by a narrow neck that connected to Roxbury. The entrance to the neck was guarded by troops. The harbor was full of British warships. So it was difficult for patriots to get in or out of the city.
Several days after the skirmishes at Lexington and Concord General Gage made an offer to the patriots who were trapped in Boston. If they wanted to leave, they could take everything they could carry with them, but they must surrender their weapons. An astonishing 1,778 muskets, 634 pistols, 973 bayonets, and 38 blunderbusses were collected. An interesting comment on the number of weapons in the hands of private individuals in Boston in 1775.
It has been estimated that within a few days of April 19, 1775 as many as 2000 militia men arrived in Roxbury and Cambridge from Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Maine. Certainly not enough to win a war, but they probably outnumbered the British troops quartered in the city at the time.
By the way, I highly recommend Bunker Hill to anyone who is interested in the subject, or Philbrick's earlier book about the time between the Pilgrims landing and King Phillip's War, called Mayflower.
P.S. We have many 'Minute Man' reenactor groups in this neck of the woods. They mostly march in parades and give demonstrations at historical sites. Patriots Day in Massachusetts is held every year on the third Monday in April to commemorate the battles of Lexington and Concord. There is also a group who represent the British side of things, they show up every year at Lexington and Concord to fire at the assembled Minute Man reenactors. A couple of years ago on Patriots day I noticed there was a musket and a British uniform in a car parked across the street. It belonged to one of the 'British' guys. He was really from a town a few miles away. We chatted a bit and of course I was very interested in his Brown Bess reproduction musket. Like most of these guys, they are very proficient at loading the weapon according to the way it was done historically, but all they ever fire is blanks. I asked him if he had ever taken it to a range and fired a ball. He was embarrassed to admit that he had only taken it to a range once and he did fire a few rounds at a target, but just a few. He was surprised how accurate his musket was.
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D. Buck Stopshere
Member
I'm probably too new to be saying this, since "I'm the new kid on the block."
I'm confused.
Is this thread discussing a choice of firearms for "tacxted" or equipping the 18th century Militia?
Maybe a new thread should be started. It is educational, but.......
Just curious.
I'm confused.
Is this thread discussing a choice of firearms for "tacxted" or equipping the 18th century Militia?
Maybe a new thread should be started. It is educational, but.......
Just curious.
EljaySL
Member
"He was surprised how accurate his musket was."
People at the range are always astonished that the things actually work pretty well. Like people would have bothered with fighting wars with them if they weren't pretty effective. That big hole tends to impress too, especially if you point out the lack of antibiotics.
To drag this back to the OP - just want to reiterate that if you get something of decent quality - these designs all existed for a reason and they were all effective at some given task be it war or providing meat to the table. Especially if you take the time to play with the load and get things dialed in I think you'll be really pleased that muzzleloaders really can get the job done. Just helps if you're not in a rush. ;-)
People at the range are always astonished that the things actually work pretty well. Like people would have bothered with fighting wars with them if they weren't pretty effective. That big hole tends to impress too, especially if you point out the lack of antibiotics.
To drag this back to the OP - just want to reiterate that if you get something of decent quality - these designs all existed for a reason and they were all effective at some given task be it war or providing meat to the table. Especially if you take the time to play with the load and get things dialed in I think you'll be really pleased that muzzleloaders really can get the job done. Just helps if you're not in a rush. ;-)
tacxted
Member
I'm still looking around at other possibilities and I found this one.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1073552270/thompson-center-fire-storm-flintlock-muzzleloading-rifle
From what I understand these are not made anymore. Anyone have input on these.
I like that it is polymer. I tend to be rough on my guns and I feel if I were to buy a nicely finished flintlock I would scratch it up too much.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1073552270/thompson-center-fire-storm-flintlock-muzzleloading-rifle
From what I understand these are not made anymore. Anyone have input on these.
I like that it is polymer. I tend to be rough on my guns and I feel if I were to buy a nicely finished flintlock I would scratch it up too much.
Crawdad1
Member
Now I'm confused. What are you looking for? Something historical that can be used for hunting and such or just a flinter that's made from modern materials, easy to take care of and used just for hunting?
tacxted
Member
I started this thread because I realized I could use a muzzle loader to round out my collection. I decided on flintlock because with modern muzzle loaders I would be required to keep a stash of primers around, also the newer muzzle loaders just seem to much like a cartridge gun in my eyes.
As we have started discussing the different flintlocks available I have started really liking the "old world" flints that have the nice wood and such, but some are at a price point where my brain starts to say things like, "that is to nice to beat around with while hunting" or "for the same amount of money i can get a bolt gun/semi pistol/pump shotgun".
As I have a good amount of time before I can purchase, I trying to gather as much information as I can. I do like the flintlocks that the Minutemen carried but they used mostly smooth bore muskets and I am decided that I want a rifled flintlock.
The Layman GPR kit is on my list as recommended by most everyone who as posted, its earned a spot on the list. The Spanish gun look nice but most people suggest others. This Firestorm fits the bill too. It looks like I have to make up my mind.
As we have started discussing the different flintlocks available I have started really liking the "old world" flints that have the nice wood and such, but some are at a price point where my brain starts to say things like, "that is to nice to beat around with while hunting" or "for the same amount of money i can get a bolt gun/semi pistol/pump shotgun".
As I have a good amount of time before I can purchase, I trying to gather as much information as I can. I do like the flintlocks that the Minutemen carried but they used mostly smooth bore muskets and I am decided that I want a rifled flintlock.
The Layman GPR kit is on my list as recommended by most everyone who as posted, its earned a spot on the list. The Spanish gun look nice but most people suggest others. This Firestorm fits the bill too. It looks like I have to make up my mind.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Messages
- 22,497
If you want to be a Minute Man....
I'd go with Jim Chambers' Fowler. You can get a Brown Bess or Charleville (earlier patter from F&I War).
Most New England MinuteMen carried smoothbore guns. Rifles were known, but not as popular in New England as they were in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia and further south.
BTW, say no to halfstocks like Hawkens. Halfstocks weren't popular until after the 1800s. You'd be really out of place with a Hawkens.
I'd go with Jim Chambers' Fowler. You can get a Brown Bess or Charleville (earlier patter from F&I War).
Most New England MinuteMen carried smoothbore guns. Rifles were known, but not as popular in New England as they were in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia and further south.
BTW, say no to halfstocks like Hawkens. Halfstocks weren't popular until after the 1800s. You'd be really out of place with a Hawkens.
EljaySL
Member
Again, with flintlocks if the lock isn't high quality they're no fun and there's not always much you can do about it. Polymer issues aside, other than the Lyman option you're not going to find much that actually works under a thousand dollars.
Jim Watson
Member
Yeah but there is the mystique of the Kentucky rifle.
I agree that the Lyman is the best factory muzzleloading rifle around.
I agree that the Lyman is the best factory muzzleloading rifle around.
D. Buck Stopshere
Member
I'm probably beating a dead horse, here.
The T/C Firestorm is a good choice if you're going to be rough with it. The T/C lock is a good design, but the Lyman is better IMHO. Set triggers vs a single trigger, too.
I'd prefer the Lyman flint GPR in kit form (you say you wanted to build) or buy a nice used one at a gun show for about $350 to $450, AND be Careful With It (instead of rough with it).
For the price of a T/C Firestorm, 5 Bills, you can buy from Track Of The Wolf at http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/542/2 a Lyman flint rifle kit, Cat#LYMAN-GPR-50-FK.
The irony of the Lyman GP Rifle vs the T/C Hawken is that the T/C looks nothing like a real 19th century Hawken, but its still called a "Hawken" (that name sold thousands of rifles for T/C).
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle IS the most authentic reproduction Hawken design, yet its not called a Hawken.
'nuff said. Going to bed.
The T/C Firestorm is a good choice if you're going to be rough with it. The T/C lock is a good design, but the Lyman is better IMHO. Set triggers vs a single trigger, too.
I'd prefer the Lyman flint GPR in kit form (you say you wanted to build) or buy a nice used one at a gun show for about $350 to $450, AND be Careful With It (instead of rough with it).
For the price of a T/C Firestorm, 5 Bills, you can buy from Track Of The Wolf at http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/542/2 a Lyman flint rifle kit, Cat#LYMAN-GPR-50-FK.
The irony of the Lyman GP Rifle vs the T/C Hawken is that the T/C looks nothing like a real 19th century Hawken, but its still called a "Hawken" (that name sold thousands of rifles for T/C).
And the Lyman Great Plains Rifle IS the most authentic reproduction Hawken design, yet its not called a Hawken.
'nuff said. Going to bed.
The GPR/Flint/50 is the OP's best option for intro balance in quality/cost, an excellent barrel, good lock,
reasonably authentic "Hawken" design -- and repair/replacement parts if/when req'd.
Looking at the T/C Firestorm, and thinking it over for awhile, I am reminded of Data's response to
Riker's newly cleanshaven face:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXPaZzUP5wk
reasonably authentic "Hawken" design -- and repair/replacement parts if/when req'd.
Looking at the T/C Firestorm, and thinking it over for awhile, I am reminded of Data's response to
Riker's newly cleanshaven face:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXPaZzUP5wk
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