Are revolver speedloaders legally considered magazines?

[Smoovbiscuit]

So I have a few questions here. I am 20, and can't get my CCW yet, but I would really like to have some protection, but I am not eager to risk my freedom or become a felon by illegally possessing a loaded firearm.

I used to live in Washington state, where I hope to return in the near future, where (to my understanding) someone between 18-21 could only have a handgun in their car if its out of sight from outside the vehicle and it can't be loaded or have magazine loaded, and the car had to be locked while not attended.

In the terms defined section of WA state law:

" "Loaded" means:

(a) There is a cartridge in the chamber of the firearm;

(b) Cartridges are in a clip that is locked in place in the firearm;

(c) There is a cartridge in the cylinder of the firearm, if the firearm is a revolver;

(d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action; or

(e) There is a ball in the barrel and the firearm is capped or primed if the firearm is a muzzle loader. "

So to my question. Does anyone know if HKS speed loaders for revolvers would count as a magazine? Also am I understanding the law correctly that I could legally have an unloaded handgun in my glove box?

Technically the "clip" wouldn't be locked into place, it simply holds the bullets in position and the "clip" its self would not still be in the firearm. Would I need OJ's lawyer to prove this or is this a reasonable loophole?

I am a firm believer that people need to be able to defend themselves. I used to carry on my person, but a friend got locked up a few months ago for similar charges and I really don't want to end up in jail with him.

Lately I have just been carrying a knife, but I would be much more comfortable also having my S&W model 60 in my cars glovebox, even though it would take me a few seconds to get to it and load it.

One more question. I currently live in Virginia, but I hope to move back to WA state within the next couple months. does anyone know if the laws are the same in VA?

 

[springfield30-06]

If you want real legal advice you need to consult a lawyer. However, it sounds like if the 'clip'/magazine laying next to the gun and no round is in the chamber it sounds legal so I don't see why a speed loader lying next to a revolver would be any different.

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

Lawyers cost money that I simply don't have. I was hoping someone with some legal background may have some advice.

Are there any WA state LEO's on here? would you arrest me if you pulled me over and asked me if I had any weapons in my car and I showed you my legal revolver, unloaded with speedloaders w/ bullets in them? (assuming I hadn't committed any other crimes)

Also curious to hear from any LEO on this matter really.

 

[hirundo82]

One more question. I currently live in Virginia, but I hope to move back to WA state within the next couple months. does anyone know if the laws are the same in VA?

Virginia law recently changed to allow unlicensed persons who may legally possess a handgun to carry it in their vehicle as long as it is in a container or compartment of the vehicle--eg in the glove compartment. There is no requirement the gun be unloaded or the compartment be locked.

ETA: It has always been OK to open carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle in Virginia; this change simply adds a way to legally conceal it without a permit.

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

Thats awesome hirundo! guess I should read up on it more. Looks like I'll be a safer man while I'm in VA

 

[mustang_steve]

I'm no lawyer, but isn't the cylinder of the revolver the magazine? Shouldn't that technically make a speedloader a clip, in that it's used to load a magazine?

 

[BlindJustice]

I'm a Wash Resident - the legal way to transport weapons if you don't have a CPL ( it's called a Concealed Pistol license here - and yes I have one.
is to have the weapon in one locked area of the car and the ammo in a separate area of the car or in a locked container ( case )

but I haven't paid attention to it since getting my CPL some years ago

you'll be 21 soon enough - oh, and any knife with a blade greater than 3"
and you'll get in trouble for carrying it - unless you're hunting/camping

Randall

 

[Manco]

So to my question. Does anyone know if HKS speed loaders for revolvers would count as a magazine?

I'm no lawyer or LEO, but just going by the letter of the law (which is no guarantee in court, mind you), regardless of whether that is the case, if it's not locked into the gun, then it doesn't matter.

Technically the "clip" wouldn't be locked into place, it simply holds the bullets in position and the "clip" its self would not still be in the firearm.

If you want to get technical, a speedloader is indeed a clip (no quotes needed), while the cylinder is the fixed magazine of the weapon itself. In this case, as long as the fixed magazine (cylinder) is not loaded, then you should be fine.

Would I need OJ's lawyer to prove this or is this a reasonable loophole?

It's not a loophole, it's allowed by the letter and hopefully the spirit of the law. That said, there is never a guarantee that a police officer wouldn't interpret the law differently (despite how clear it seems to be) or that an anti-gun prosecutor wouldn't try to find some actual loopholes in order to nail you and make an example of you for everybody who dares to own firearms.

That's my disclaimer for dispensing free layman legal advice. The case history of the jurisdiction in question should give you a better idea of how these laws have been interpreted and enforced in the past, and legal precedence carries a lot of weight.

I'm no lawyer, but isn't the cylinder of the revolver the magazine? Shouldn't that technically make a speedloader a clip, in that it's used to load a magazine?

You beat me to it, but yes you are correct, to the best of my knowledge. The cylinder of a revolver is a magazine because it encloses the rounds, and is a fixed magazine because it's an integral part of the gun that contains the ammunition (it can also contain clips, such as moon clips in the case of a revolver). A speedloader is a clip because it holds rounds together for loading, although there really is no need to get more specific than the basic English definition of the word clip, as it serves essentially the same function as a paperclip, for example. At least that's how I interpret these terms, and it appears to be consistent with the legal definitions.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Virginia law recently changed to allow unlicensed persons who may legally possess a handgun to carry it in their vehicle as long as it is in a container or compartment of the vehicle--eg in the glove compartment. There is no requirement the gun be unloaded or the compartment be locked.

To clarify; Virginia already allowed unlicensed, loaded open carry in a vehicle. The changes to the law allows the loaded handgun to be in a "secured container".

 

[BLB68]

you'll be 21 soon enough - oh, and any knife with a blade greater than 3"
and you'll get in trouble for carrying it - unless you're hunting/camping

Randall

Actually, there's no state-wide blade length limit in WA, only limits by municipality/county. Seattle has a limit of 3.5" on folders, for example.

 

[Remo223]

Your OP clearly states a revolver is loaded if there is a cartridge in the cylinder.

If you have a speed loader near a revolver is there a cartridge in the cylinder?

There's your answer.

There are 5 conditions which constitute "loaded". THey are labeled a through e. You must meet one of those conditions to be "loaded".

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

Manco and Mustang, I agree that the speedloader serves the purpose of a magazine, but what I am questioning is if it is legally considered one, as it does not meet any of the definitions listed above. Thats why I'm considering it a loophole.

Blindjustice where does it say the ammo has to be separate? from what I can tell it just says the gun and magazine has to be empty, bullets could be right next to the gun from what I understand.

If it were legal is WA for me to have my Ruger 9mm unloaded with a loaded magazine accessible than that would be my proffered SD gun, but it is not legal for me there because the mag is inserted into the gun, so I'm trying to find a way around that for me to be able to defend myself.

And Randall my birthday isn't until December, thats longer than I'm comfortable being unarmed for. And my knife is less than 3", right now I have an around 2.75" blade no name knife. I had a Gerber 2.99" assisted opening knife but it broke on me after a month. I'm going to get a Kershaw but first I'm trying to save up money to move back to WA asap. East coast is not for me.

Remo223 I agree but it just seems too good to be true

Though I'm glad to hear I can have defend myself to some degree in VA, frankly I'm more worried about my safety in WA. Lets just say I've made some enemies there over the years. Though defending myself is a high priority for me, I'm not very comfortable concealed carrying anymore until I get my CPL, because I don't want to go to jail, and I would be devastated if I became a felon and couldn't own guns anymore. I can however still conceal at my "home or place of business" which is good.

 

[Manco]

Manco and Mustang, I agree that the speedloader serves the purpose of a magazine,

To be more specific, a speedloader is a clip that essentially serves the same purpose as a detachable magazine in loading a firearm. Although this particular law distinguishes between the terms "clip" and "magazine" in order to disambiguate certain cases, in a legal sense it would be wise to consider them synonymous.

but what I am questioning is if it is legally considered one, as it does not meet any of the definitions listed above. Thats why I'm considering it a loophole.

I don't see a loophole here, but if it were one, I wouldn't advise trying to exploit it just because of semantics.

If it were legal is WA for me to have my Ruger 9mm unloaded with a loaded magazine accessible than that would be my proffered SD gun, but it is not legal for me there because the mag is inserted into the gun, so I'm trying to find a way around that for me to be able to defend myself.

So don't insert the magazine into the gun (until you need to shoot it, anyway).

Errr...wait a minute, I think we're interpreting the following section of the law in question differently:

(d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action;

I believe the law means that the magazine is actually inserted in the action--like, right now--not that it could be inserted at a future time or is meant to be inserted. Unless there is another law telling you that it is illegal to have a loaded magazine next to your currently unloaded gun (and some states do have laws like that), then you should be OK (once again, I can't guarantee that, so you need to research the relevant case history). In California, for example, supposedly you may open-carry an unloaded handgun with a loaded magazine in your pocket (I say "supposedly" because I'm sure you'd get hassled by cops regardless )--the gun itself just can't be loaded, that's all.

 

[Remo223]

Remo223 I agree but it just seems too good to be true

Too good to be true? Seems overly restrictive to me.

 

[RogueLeader]

In Nevada, a magazine is considered a part of the pistol. So, you cannot have a loaded magazine in the car, whether or not it is inserted into the pistol. However, a revolver is considered unloaded as long as there are no rounds in the chambers. The law doesn't say anything about speed loaders, but as far as I know, in this state, the speed loaders are not considered a part of the revolver, and may be carried with ammo in them, just as if you were carrying a box of ammo. However, in Nevada, it is legal to have a loaded handgun in the car and it can be concealed, except in a few towns and cities. In Las Vegas, for instance, a handgun can be legally hidden and loaded as long as the owner has their blue Metro PD registration card. However, in North Las Vegas, Henderson, and Boulder City, they want the guns unloaded and in plain sight.

 

[Manco]

Too good to be true? Seems overly restrictive to me.

Now you know the true power of low expectations!

I get my expectations straight from the Second Amendment, so I'm never really satisfied.

 

[BlindJustice]

Smoovbiscuit - hey, just saying what I learned in the '60s, heck it could have been an overzealous scout leader when I took my first firearms safety
course in '62? so who knows...

what part of Wash. you moving back to, just curious?

I'm in SE Washington - low crime rate in WHitman County.

Randall

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

Remo223 I totally agree it is over restrictive. IMHO gun control is a complete joke. I'm just trying to protect myself as much as possible while still abiding the law.

Manco I can't legally have a loaded magazine in the car is the whole point of this thread, read the legal definitions I posted at the top carefully. I am just questioning if anyone knew for sure that a speed loader isn't considered a magazine or clip, because the ones I have are not moon clips and they do NOT meet the definitions listed above because it is not "locked into place in the firearm" No offense but I really don't see what you don't understand about this.

I don't feel its "pushing the limits of the law" because it is clearly defined. Whoever wrote that law could have added a clause saying "or holds bullets in place but is not locked into place" or something to include speed loaders and stripper clips (I'm no lawyer). So your right, it is not a loophole. It is just a stupid law to begin with.

The reason I called it a loophole was because the speed loader basically serves the purpose of a magazine but it doesn't appear to meet the legal definitions of one. One also may consider it a loophole that I can own a handgun in the first place, because I can't buy one from a FFL, and I also can't buy ammunition for them. Both of those laws are incredibly stupid and I'm not defending them, I just have to abide by them. We don't need to go back and fourth about whats a loophole and what isn't because thats really not what this threads about.

BlindJustice I'm from NW Washington, near the border. I have met some VERY sketchy characters there and I have had guns pointed at me before on multiple occasions, along with verbal threats. Though crime may not be easily visible to the naked eye, trust me it is everywhere in WA. There are some serious "BG"s there, trust me on that one. Can't say that I've been to Whitman county though so consider yourself lucky

 

[Ruger GP100 fan]

If you want real legal advice you need to consult a lawyer.

Second that! My state has similar laws and I spoke with a county deputy who told me loaded clips are legal...loaded revolver speed loaders were not (???).

 

[mustang_steve]

Yep, consult a lawyer.

Clips/magazines do sometimes equal each other under the law. Don't talk to a police officer, they're just law enforcement, not a legal expert. They don't go into case law and all that...they just cite/charge where it's likely to stick and go with it.

 

[Manco]

Manco I can't legally have a loaded magazine in the car is the whole point of this thread, read the legal definitions I posted at the top carefully.

I don't see where the law says that you can't have a loaded magazine in a vehicle as long as it's not currently inserted in a gun. The only concern that I'm aware of is whether the gun itself is loaded. If the magazine is not in your gun at this very moment, then your gun is not loaded. Here are the other laws I've just read regarding the carrying of firearms in the state of Washington:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060

I am just questioning if anyone knew for sure that a speed loader isn't considered a magazine or clip, because the ones I have are not moon clips and they do NOT meet the definitions listed above because it is not "locked into place in the firearm"

There is no clear-cut definition in the penal code, so I think it would be wise to consider speedloaders and magazines equivalent. On that note, it would also be wise to consider revolvers as a type of "pistol" (some people don't, but the law in this case appears to).

No offense but I really don't see what you don't understand about this.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you understand what the law is saying. I stated very clearly and explicitly that we must be interpreting the legal definition of "loaded" differently:

"(d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action;"

The laws cited above only concern loaded pistols, not loaded magazines. The question is whether a pistol, by the letter of the law, is considered loaded if a loaded magazine is lying next to it as opposed to being inserted in it. My interpretation of the legal definition of "loaded" says no, the pistol is not loaded in this case, and it's alright to have a loaded magazine right next to it (as long as the pistol is hidden from plain view).

Your interpretation appears to be that if a loaded magazine is in the same vehicle as the pistol, then either the pistol is considered loaded and in violation of the law, or the loaded magazine itself is in violation of the law, which is why you're trying to work around the law with definitions. Well, I don't think that you'd be in violation to begin with, so there should be no need to work around anything.

Obviously it would be best to consult a lawyer in the area who has experience in these matters, and I would suggest starting from scratch rather than asking him/her whether a speedloader is legally considered a magazine--first ask whether you may legally carry your Ruger 9mm along with a loaded magazine as long as the latter is not currently inserted in the former.

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

I understand if I want 100% accurate legal advice I should consult a lawyer. I was just hoping someone may have already looked into this and would have an answer for me, as I doubt I am the first to ask this question. As I said a lawyer is simply not an option for me, I am just about as broke as it gets.

The reason I asked what any LEO's would know would just basically to get a rough idea of how a cop might react if seeing this. That is not my biggest concern, to me protecting myself would be worth the possibility of a trip to jail if I was confident that a public defender could get me off with little or no charges. I just don't want to risk getting actually charged with anything serious.

Thats why I referred to "OJs lawyer" in my original post, I could get someone to bail me out of jail, but I would probably have to use a public defender if I was going to get charged with something.

Manco I know for a fact you cannot have loaded handgun magazines in the car. And WA law considers a "pistol" being:

"(13) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand." which would include revolvers.

FYI even if it was considered a different type of firearm, I also cannot have a loaded long gun, or even a muzzle loader loaded so that is neither here nor there.

Keep in mind I grew up in WA, and trust me I dearly wish I could have the magazine loaded, and I would want to believe that but it is simply not the case. This has been an issue for me since the day I turned 18, trust me I know in WA you cannot have loaded mags in the car w/out CLP. On literary hundreds of occasions my friends and I have un loaded our HD guns, put them into the car and gone to where we go shooting and have to re load them again, magazine after magazine.

So I cannot have a "loaded" gun in the car because "loaded" in the legal definition means that the gun OR magazine can't be loaded, it says it very clearly there that it means its loaded if there is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted into the gun. This clearly is to prevent a loaded mag in the car.

IMHO this law is probably because it would be too easy if you got pulled over to just pop the magazine out and just say "it wasn't inserted in the gun" it would be as easy as pushing a single button, and putting the gun and mag out of plain view. It would be easier with some guns than others, but with a small handgun it would be pretty easy to accomplish. Out of plain view would be as easy as setting it under the seat or on the passenger side floor under a coat or something.

"d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action; "

You and I clearly interpret this differently, and honestly I am tired of going back and fourth with you about this. You are not answering my question at all and I feel like we are both just repeating ourselves over and over.

I do appreciate your advice, but how about we respectfully agree to disagree on this? I did not post the entire WA state firearm laws here because that is not what I'm trying to discuss.

Though it may not be wise to push the limits of the law, IMHO in my circumstances I think I would rather risk getting thrown in jail for a day by some arrogant cop that doesn't know the law than risk getting my brains on my windshield.

I can't think of many worse feelings I have ever had than being unarmed when a gun is pointed at you. Its not like I have a hit on me by a gang or anything but I have had some close calls with BG's.

But risking years in prison and my right to bear arms is a different story to me, because I wouldn't be able to protect myself at all when I got out. And I'm passionate about guns and would be very bummed if I couldn't own one anymore.

I'm just trying to find a healthy balance of being able to defend myself and staying out of serious trouble for the next 10 months or so until I can legally carry outside my home.

 

[Jim K]

I am not going to get into how an underage person can evade the intent of the law if not the letter thereof.

I will note one case where a speed loader on a car console was held to be reasonable cause for officers to search the car and find an illegally carried handgun. No one argued that the speed loader was itself illegal, only that its presence was reasonable cause to suspect the presence of a gun, for which none of the car's occupants had a license. The driver was convicted of illegally transporting/carrying a handgun.

The driver later said that he put the speed loader on the console just to see if the "stupid cops" would recognize it. They did. So who was really "stupid"?

Jim

 

[David E]

Understand that "They" can define anything AS anything. That said, let's look at the law as written:
In the terms defined section of WA state law:

" "Loaded" means:

(a) There is a cartridge in the chamber of the firearm;

If the revolver cylinder is empty, then there is no cartridge in a chamber.

(b) Cartridges are in a clip that is locked in place in the firearm;

This would seem to address a semi-auto with a load magazine inserted into the gun, chamber empty. So it would appear not to apply at all to a revolver.

(c) There is a cartridge in the cylinder of the firearm, if the firearm is a revolver;

Here it appears they specifically address revolvers for the first time. If the cylinder is NOT loaded with any ammo, then it would appear the revolver is considered to be unloaded.

(d) There is a cartridge in the tube or magazine that is inserted in the action; or

Here, it appears they address a rifle, like a lever action 30-30 with a tubular magazine, or a Remington 742 with detachable box magazine. Either way, if your revolver cylinder is empty, then there is no cartridge in a chamber.

(e) There is a ball in the barrel and the firearm is capped or primed if the firearm is a muzzle loader. "

Not applicable, unless your revolver is a Ruger Old Army, in which case, you can't put a cap on the nipple.

From the reading of the above, a loaded magazine NOT inserted into the gun would be permissable to have NEXT to the gun. (providing there isn't another law somewhere prohibiting that.) Same thing for a speedloader.

But I'm not a lawyer, so a common sense reading and interpretation of the law as written may not be sufficient.

 

[Smoovbiscuit]

Jim I never called cops stupid, and I have a healthy respect for law enforcement. But I honestly think whoever made these laws in the first place is stupid, yes. And I didn't mean to say all cops were arrogant, but if I was arrested but not breaking any law then by definition the cop would be arrogant am I right? And yes anyone who was illegally possessing a gun and had speed loaders in plain sight would be quite stupid I certainly agree with you there, but my circumstances are much different and I have nothing to hide being searched, my guns are all 100% legal. Also my gun and speed loaders would be out sight.

I don't consider myself underage because it is completely legal for me to own a handgun, or have one in my car provided its not in plain sight, is not loaded and that my car is locked when I'm not in it. I just can't buy one at a store or buy ammunition for one.

I do see how what I am asking may be considered evading the law, but I don't see it as evading any laws if I'm not breaking any. And IMHO not allowing a 20 year old or anyone over 18 to have a loaded firearm in their car is evading my constitutional rights. But that is entirely debatable.

David I see your point but I interpret those definitions as including a loaded magazine that isn't inserted. It is also what I have been taught and told growing up. You and Manco may be right on that one, and I hope you are but I need a little more verification before I start acting on that. Maybe it would be wise for me to try to save up for a lawyer, but until then I think I'll stick to my speed loaders.

And I understand that most of those definitions don't apply to my circumstances I just thought It would be wise post the whole page.

Though I don't entirely agree with what you guys said I respect your opinions and thank you for your food for thought