Are the differences between these 2 Amsec safes worth worrying about?

[CuZnPb11]

I recently got a “great” deal on an Amsec CSC 2517 safe that a distributor was trying to unload because it had been sitting in their warehouse for 3 years. Although I didn't have the opportunity to inspect it, I was told I would be buying a new safe.

Unfortunately, after it was delivered, I opened it to find mold spots, rust, and corrosion on the painted interior, the bolts, the locking assembly, and other various parts.

After sending pictures and speaking with a representative at Amsec, they were kind enough to offer me an updated replacement, the CSC 3018. However, my concern is that the specs between the two models don't match up. For example:

*The CSC 2517 weighs in at 896 lbs while the 3018 is 462 lbs.

*The CSC 2517's walls are an amalgamation of nuggets and steel fibers (“to withstand the most concentrated attacks with the most sophisticated equipment used by burglars today”) while it's my understanding that the 3018 uses a steel/gypsum composite.

*The CSC 2517 mentions a 1/4” hard plate in the door with a tungsten carbide drill-shattering insert while the 3018 makes no claim of having this.

*The CSC 2517 uses a spring loaded re-locker while the 3018 uses tempered glass.

*The CSC 2517 has a 1 hr fire rating while the 3018 has a 2 hour fire rating.

*While the CSC 2517 came with the ESL10XL lock, I have the option of “downgrading” to a dial combination lock (my preference) on the CSC 3018.

Prior to finding this deal, I had been looking at B rated steel plate safes, as I was more interested in burglary than fire protection.

My question for the safe experts out there is: Might anyone know if I'm getting a reasonably fair replacement? I believe there's a slight chance I could acquire one last (and hopefully in better condition) 2517 if I'm not.

Thank you.

 

[7.62 Nato]

One of the first things I compare in same size safes is weight. Unless it comes with a heavy interior, the heavier safe generally gives more protection. I haven't compared the rest spec per spec, just a quick assessment.

 

[a1abdj]

If you could get your hands on another older model, I would probably go that route.

I don't know if both models are imported, but the newer versions are. Both are going to be B rate by technical definition, but the older version is obviously built heavier than the newer version. All of the fire/burlgary safes are going to be composite safes that use a "cement" fill material. In addition to fire resistance, this also adds to the burglary protection of the unit. This fill material can range from light duty to very heavy duty.

One of the first things I compare in same size safes is weight. Unless it comes with a heavy interior, the heavier safe generally gives more protection.

This is certainly true in some cases, but you really have to know what you're comparing. For example, a composite safe will usually weigh less than a steel plate safe, but can offer the same/better protection and be manufactured for a lower cost.

Gun safes are usually stuffed with gypsum board, that in many cases, weighs more than the steel used to make the safe itself, and offers no burglary protection at all.

 

[CuZnPb11]

After doing a little more research, I completely concur with your posts. It turns out that the specs of the 2517 are actually much closer (albeit weaker) to the CE TL-15 model than to the current CSCs

However, based on my concerns about how the first transaction went with the distributor (not the retailer... he was great.), I feel more at peace going “factory direct” this time even though I'm going to end up with “only” a B-rated safe (although with better fire protection.)

Regardless, I'm still getting the safe for a fantastic price.

Thanks so much for the quick replies.

 

[beavis956]

Thin steel

FYI: The Amsec CSC "safes" have a 16 gauge outer wall and a 16 gauge inner wall in both the body and the door

 

[heeler]

Beavis that might be so but go back to post #3 and read the part where a1abdj states "This fill material can range from light duty to very heavy duty".
A good example of this can be seen on the youtube film version of UL testing the Meilink Gibralter TL-30 safe.
If you want to see a heavy duty composite fill material look at this.

 

[beavis956]

Beavis that might be so but go back to post #3 and read the part where a1abdj states "This fill material can range from light duty to very heavy duty".
A good example of this can be seen on the youtube film version of UL testing the Meilink Gibralter TL-30 safe.
If you want to see a heavy duty composite fill material look at this.

A TL listed safe should not be mentioned in the same conversation as the CSC. Between the CSC's incredibly thin steel, is a soft wet composite material for fire protection. TL listed safes use a dense concrete amalgamate fill that gives the walls an equivalent tensile strength to 1" solid 50000 P.S.I. steel walls. For the UL listed composite safes, the "concrete" provides the primary burglary protection, not the steel. In any UL or "Euro grade" test, you will see the technicians cut the outer steel very quickly and then spend the next __ (however long the test is) attacking the concrete amalgamate. The CSC "safes" have less steel than my filing cabinet and there is no burglary protection provided from the fill material. They should only be used and marketed as fire safes.

The non-gun Amsec BF safes use regular old fire clay as the fill material. These are UL listed for fire, the BF gunsafes are not and they are filled with a much lighter "DryLight" material.

Chubb was probably the first safe company in the modern era to make a really good composite with their Torch and Drill Resisting material, or TDR. They also had the best boltwork design of the last 60 years or so, with the "Isolator" mechanism.

The fill of the Meilink Gibraltar TL-30 safe is child's play compared to the stuff that ISM and some European safe manufacturers use. The EN 1143-1 standards go up to a resistance grade of 10 and include protection against core drilling (those giant drills they use for mining). Standard production safes are only made up to grade 6 , but there have been custom safes made and tested at a higher grade.

 

[heeler]

None the less the example I gave was an example of the differences of fill material.
I refrenced the Gibralter only as an example.

 

[a1abdj]

A TL listed safe should not be mentioned in the same conversation as the CSC.

I have not drilled into a new CSC, but the older versions did in fact have a fairly robust fill. Although it wasn't a TL rated safe, it was at least built in a similar fashion, with similar materials. As far as a safe with a RSC rating, it was a decent safe.

Many safe manufacturers are reducing the quality of their safes and/or importing them in order to get all of the consumers that "need" a safe, but don't have any money. AMSEC is certainly guilty of this. AMSEC is also trying to expand their dealer network anyway possible, including letting those not in the security business sell their products. I think it's bad news.

Companies like Gardall once built a number of safe lines here in the US. Now it's mostly Korean safes. Nobody wants to pay a premium for a safe just because it has a name brand painted on the door, when you can buy the exact same "no name" safe for less.

Another guy in the safe business said it the best. It really is the race to the bottom.

The good news is this. Some of these guys who buy these safes will experience losses through burglary or fire. Once they find out that the manufacturer or salesman lied to them, they will hopefully seek out the assistance of a professional who knows what they are selling. I also hope that they spread the word over the internet as much as they can.

 

[CuZnPb11]

FYI: The Amsec CSC "safes" have a 16 gauge outer wall and a 16 gauge inner wall in both the body and the door

This concerns me as my primary objective is for security. According to the technical support rep at AMSEC, the newer CSC is different than the old series but uses the same materials as the BF. She also reassured me that it would be more secure than a BWB steel plate. Also, the literature on what appeared to be a similar CSC model gun safe listed it as B rated. This information, plus a1abdj's endorsement of the BF series, gave me some comfort in swapping.

Of course, upon further reading, it looks like the CSC is a little lighter than the BF. Perhaps this is due to less steel?

Anyway, now I'm in a bind as AMSEC has shipped the new safe and it sounds like it won't meet my needs.

Right now I still have the original concrete CSC (the one with some rust and mildew that I cleaned up) sitting at my place. Would it be worth simply getting new shelves, cleaning it up, and replacing the combination lock on this one if I could tell AMSEC that I don't want the newer model?

 

[heeler]

Myself if the older CSC can be cleaned up I would much prefer it over the newer and possibly lighter duty CSC.
I actually know someone who owns a CSC 1717 and that thing is incredibly heavy for it's size.
He told me it weighs close to 700 pounds.
I have only seen the inside of it a couple of times but it appeared pretty strong in it's security features especially the door.
He bought this thing used from a neighbor who was moving out of state for $650.00.

 

[beavis956]

According to the technical support rep at AMSEC, the newer CSC is different than the old series but uses the same materials as the BF.

That means absolutely nothing:banghead: Yes, it has inner and outer steel walls and a fire resisting fill like the BF, but that's where the comparisons end:

The CSC is imported, the BF is made in the U.S.
The outer and inner walls of the BF are 10 gauge steel, compared to 16 gauge for the CSC.
The door of the BF is a 1/2" thick steel plate, the door of the CSC is made of 2 16 guage sheets !
The BF has a UL fire rating, the CSC is "factory tested".

She also reassured me that it would be more secure than a BWB steel plate...

The CSC is a fire safe and the BWB is not, so you can't compare them apples to apples. If fire is not a concern, I would rather have 1 thicker steel plate than 2 paper-thin ones. The door of the BWB is also 1/2" steel plate.

Of course, upon further reading, it looks like the CSC is a little lighter than the BF. Perhaps this is due to less steel?

Yes, and a different fill.

Right now I still have the original concrete CSC (the one with some rust and mildew that I cleaned up) sitting at my place. Would it be worth simply getting new shelves, cleaning it up, and replacing the combination lock on this one if I could tell AMSEC that I don't want the newer model?

I would sell the new CSC safe on craigslist or something. Then, either fix up the old one and use it, or sell it as well and buy a BF. The BF is decent safe and offers what I believe to be, the minimum level of theft protection for typical home use. It also offers the most burglary protection for a UL listed fire safe (compared to the Gardall, Fireking, etc., BF safes).

 

[CuZnPb11]

Thank you to all the experts who replied to my questions.

The information you shared was just enough to compel me to refuse the newer model and work with AMSEC to find a solution that would satisfy me.

Ultimately, not only did they locate a new CSC 2517, but also provided a “white glove” swap and upgraded the standard dial for my trouble. Talk about a company that backs their customers and name!

I should also mention that through this experience, my 2nd tech support representative, Meghann, was a true advocate who deserves a ton of credit for this exceptional outcome.

In hindsight, I've learned that if I were to ever give advice to anyone buying a safe, I'd say the following as a result of my ordeal:

1. Do your homework, including on this forum.
2. Inspect the safe you plan on buying if at all possible.
3. Establish a good contact on the inside.
4. Buy AMSEC.

Thanks again.

 

[a1abdj]

I'm glad you got it worked out.

The last few posts bring up something that I have always said. Do not take the word of anyone, when it comes to technical aspects of a safe, unless you can verify that they know what they're talking about. I hate to say it, but even the people that answer the phone at AMSEC are wrong sometimes.

Many people will tell you what you want to hear, make up information on the fly, or get incorrect information out of old sales literature, etc. Trust, but always verify.

 

[heeler]

The way Amsec handled this is very good to hear.
I am glad you have the older original CSC as I am sure you are as well.
I hope I never have to deal with Amsec because my safe is ever damaged in a burglary attempt or an actual breach or worse yet a fire but again it's good to know that they went the extra mile to make it right for you.