Are there loopholes to the California Certified Handgun List?

[El Rojo]

I am getting my FFL and a guy wants a Magnum Research .50AE Desert Eagle. I check for a price at Davidson's and it says they are restricted and I suddenly realize, "CRAP! They must not be on the list." So I check and sure enough no .50 AEs on the Certified List. I just looked at the DOJ website and it says,

Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice. Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.

I am pretty sure it means what it says and so if you have a gun not on the certified list, you can't sell it right? He couldn't do a private party transfer with someone else who already has a DE .50 AE in the state could he? Thanks for you help and if you just want to comment how I should move out of the state, save it please; we already know what we need to do.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Private party transfers are exempt from this requirement.

Seems pretty clear to me. He needs to buy one from someone that has one legally already.

I'm overly paranoid, so if it was me I'd probably only buy one from an individual that still had the bill of sale for the thing showing it was purchased before all that mess started.

 

[Mute]

Anything that isn't banned ("assault" weapons or .50bmg rifles) can be transferred through PPT. However, it does have to be done face to face if it is a handgun that's not on the certified list.

 

[El Rojo]

I read right through that "private party transfer" part. Duh. Thanks Texas!

Anything that isn't banned ("assault" weapons or .50bmg rifles) can be transferred through PPT. However, it does have to be done face to face if it is a handgun that's not on the certified list.

Be careful Mute, that private party transfer does not mean that two people can trade guns. That private party transfer means you take your gun to me the gun dealer and I do the paperwork for you to transfer it to someone you are selling the gun directly to. All gun transfers have to go through a federally licensed firearms dealer unless it was made before like 1898 or some date like that or it is family. At least that was my understanding of the law and I wouldn't mind being wrong in this case, but I don't think I am.

The nice thing is the State of California specified I can't charge more than $10 (plus your $25 DROS fees) to do all of your PPT paperwork, so it will be cheap for you!

 

[bountyhunter]

I am pretty sure it means what it says and so if you have a gun not on the certified list, you can't sell it right?

You also may not purchase it or otherwise receive it into your posession, unless you buy it using the PPT.

He couldn't do a private party transfer with someone else who already has a DE .50 AE in the state could he?

YES, he can as long as that gun was legally in the state prior to the enactment of the "list".

Thanks for you help and if you just want to comment how I should move out of the state, save it please; we already know what we need to do.

My comment is don't leave: we need more FFL's, most people can't afford the fee or have a business address from which to operate.

 

[Mute]

Be careful Mute, that private party transfer does not mean that two people can trade guns. That private party transfer means you take your gun to me the gun dealer and I do the paperwork for you to transfer it to someone you are selling the gun directly to. All gun transfers have to go through a federally licensed firearms dealer unless it was made before like 1898 or some date like that or it is family. At least that was my understanding of the law and I wouldn't mind being wrong in this case, but I don't think I am.

That is what I meant, but I should have been more specific and not assume everyone knows in Kali all gun deals go through an FFL.

In addition, any handguns not on the DOJ cert list can be purchased through PPT if someone from out of state moves here and registers the firearm with the DOJ, at which point it can be legally transferred. All ban rules apply (no regular...i.e. hi-cap mags can be sold with the gun). However, if you should find a normal capacity magazine laying out on the street it's ok to take it home with you.

 

[Ryder]

Are there loopholes to the California Certified Handgun List?

You mean like The Second Ammendment to the Consitution of the United States?

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

There are some limited loopholes. In this post I'll only discuss handguns; there are no loopholes for transfering California "assault weapons" or hi-cap mags. You can't even inherit these things. I think FFLs can possess them though.

• Not really a loophole: if it's on the list, you can deliver it to a CA customer
• Private party: if a private party owns the gun in CA, that gun can be transfered to anyone else in CA (transfer rules and AWB rules notwithstanding of course)
• Here's a big loophole: someone who is moving in to the state from another state (changing residence) can bring his guns with him! Let's say I want a nice new Kimber in 10mm. They're not on the list. If I have a friend who lives in NV and is planning to move here next month, I would have him buy one, own it, and move to CA, and then sell it to me. That would be fine. That is not a straw man transaction because he's buying it for himself and then I'm buying it from him and both transactions go through an FFL. Note to anyone considering moving here: you could pay for your move by buying diserable non-CA-approved guns and moving! For example, I might like a Steyr M40, but they're not on the list, and there were none in the state when the law went into effect, so it would be quite a rare gun here. Obviously, the AWB and magazine restrictions still apply.
• A narrow loophole: you're allowed to get them for use in motion pictures. Actually motion pictures also have an exemption for standard-cap mags, too, I believe.
• Open a CA DoJ testing service. Then you can receive guns for testing. yes it's a narrow loophole.
• Be an FFL or SOT. Yes it's a narrow loophole.
• LEOs are allowed to buy whatever they want. I believe that these guns end up being privately owned, and the private owner could then do a transfer. If you have a good friend who is a LEO, maybe he would do it. Some enterprising PD that needs to raise some extra money might even be able to make a business of this.
• Not really a loophole: get the gun tested. If you could find a dozen people who are willing to share the test fees, you could do it.
• Not a loophole: You can import guns privately using a BATF form. Alas, CA's bonehead safety law still applies, so that doesn't help.
• Sort of a loophole: Manufacturers should start selling a lot more guns under the same part number. For example, the Sig GSR has two part numbers, depending on the color. They should sell it on one number only. Also, manufacturers like Kimber that use one frame for a bunch of different models should make a "California Special" version that has the frame and junk parts. They get that approved. Customer buys it, ships it straight back to Kimber, and Kimber turns it into the gun the customer wanted, keeps the junk parts, and sends it back. Companies that have a bunch of variations would benefit from doing this.

Oh yeah, you could also vote for Prop 77, which is our best / only chance of getting these dumb laws tossed.

 

[bountyhunter]

You forgot one:

It is legal for a father or grandfather to give ANY gun to his kid, even if it is a non-list gun. He can even drive out of state and purchase a non-list gun and bring it in state for this purpose, as long as he fills out the specific forms.

That was told to me directly by the guys at the CA-DOJ office in Sacramento.

 

[bountyhunter]

# Be an FFL or SOT. Yes it's a narrow loophole.

I was told that even FFL's can not legally purchase unapproved guns for themselves?

Sure about that one?

The folks at CaDOJ explained to me in great detail that even a FFL may not take posession or into inventory an "unapproved" gun from an out of state purchase. They can only buy them in state through PPT like the rest of us.

I assume they could order and receive one for an FFL but in such cases, the FFL is not taking personal posession of the gun, just brokering a sale for the LEO.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

Sure about that one?

No, I'm not sure about that one. In fact I don't think that a FFL can purchase such guns for himself; they have to be in his inventory. What are the restrictions on what an FFL can do with his inventory? Can he take them to the range, etc? I assume yes but I don't know. FFLs operate under some fairly complicated rules, and I'm not an FFL.

I recently had an FFL tell me with certainty that he couldn't transfer a C&R handgun (not an AWB) to me from out of state. Wrong wrong wrong, just flat wrong. I forgot: that's another loophole: buy a C&R handgun. In fact even if the gun isn't on the C&R list you might be able to get a C&R letter from the BATF and then transfer it in. I'm not sure exactly how the BATF makes that determination.

It is legal for a father or grandfather to give ANY gun to his kid, even if it is a non-list gun. He can even drive out of state and purchase a non-list gun and bring it in state for this purpose, as long as he fills out the specific forms.

I'm pretty sure this is not the case, at least not in the absolute way you stated it. I'm pretty sure that no one (other than LEO and other privileged groups) may transfer a CA AW or hi-cap mag, even in inheretence or any other circumstance, probably with a narrow exception for the motion picture industry.

 

[El Rojo]

If I am a FFL I cannot import an unsafe handgun into this state unless I do so on behalf of some unrestricted entity like a LEO. However, LEOs don't have carte blanche on restricted handguns because they must get them for work related use and they technically belong to the department. Not many departments are willing to take that risk for your personal gun collection.

How can a relative illegally import a firearm into the state and then leave it to you? They are importing it into the state, which is illegal. Also, if that relative lives in California, they are not supposed to be able to purchase firearms in other states. That loophole just doesn't sound right to me.

So does anyone want to sell their .50 AE Desert Eagle to a guy I know?

 

[Standing Wolf]

LEOs are allowed to buy whatever they want.

Well, yeah, but the People's Republic of California isn't a police state: they still have to pay for their guns.

 

[artherd]

You forgot one:

It is legal for a father or grandfather to give ANY gun to his kid, even if it is a non-list gun. He can even drive out of state and purchase a non-list gun and bring it in state for this purpose, as long as he fills out the specific forms.

TRUE for handguns, but NOT TRUE for any AWs, so be careful here.

Also a plain FFL with no CA DOJ AW permits, may not even import AWs!!! You need a specific Permit from the DOJ.

 

[pcf]

Are there loopholes to the California Certified Handgun List?

Sure, join a gang.

Seems like the biggest loophole in Certified Handguns and CCW permits

 

[The_Antibubba]

Not really a loophole, but C&R purchases are subject to a bit less regulation.

I thought about a gun business some time ago: Find people moving to California, and have them make non-approved gun purchases before arriving. Upon settlement, a legal through-the-FFL sale is made, and the now-consignment gun is sold to a California subject.

If you're moving here, I'd really like to buy a Hi-point carbine and a Zastava pistol!

 

[EOD Guy]

You forgot one:

It is legal for a father or grandfather to give ANY gun to his kid, even if it is a non-list gun. He can even drive out of state and purchase a non-list gun and bring it in state for this purpose, as long as he fills out the specific forms.

That was told to me directly by the guys at the CA-DOJ office in Sacramento.

There are two things wrong with that statement. The exempt transfer is not only from father or grandfather. It is between grandparent and grandchild and between parent and child. Grandmothers and mothers count too. The transfer can also be either way, i.e., child to parent.

The statement that one can drive out of state, purchase a non-list handgun, import it to California, and present it to a family member is strictly illegal and a violation of Federal law, I don't care what the California DOJ told you. They might be ok with it, but the Feds definitely are not!

 

[Beethoven]

In this particular case, yes, there are two ways around the restriction:

1) Find a .50 AE that is already in the state and buy it.

2) Buy a brand new .44 mag DE and buy a .50 AE barrel and mags. It is perfectly legal to convert a .44 DE to .50, but not to buy a NIB .50 from out of state. :banghead:

 

[bountyhunter]

How can a relative illegally import a firearm into the state and then leave it to you? They are importing it into the state, which is illegal.

No, with the exception of specifically banned weapons (assault weapons or .50AE), your father can do exactly that. He can go to Nevada and buy any handgun you want, bring it in, and transfer it to you with the proper forms. Does not apply to HI-CAP mags, just the handgun.

At least, that's what the folks at CaDOJ told me when I asked them a couple of years back.

 

[bountyhunter]

The statement that one can drive out of state, purchase a non-list handgun, import it to California, and present it to a family member is strictly illegal and a violation of Federal law, I don't care what the California DOJ told you. They might be ok with it, but the Feds definitely are not!

Not sure about that, since it is a bona fide gift to a family member and thus is not a "straw man" purchase to circumvent the laws preventing people who may not buy guns from getting their hands on them.

As far as I know, it is not a violation of any federal law for a parent to give a child a gun as a gift since they have been doing it for hundreds of years. Whether the gun was purchased in state or not seems to me to be irrelevant.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have no idea how the FED would be able to bring charges if a law abiding citizen legally purchased a handgun and then gave it to his son or daughter who was also legally eligible to own guns under the law.

 

[Beethoven]

Not really a loophole, but C&R purchases are subject to a bit less regulation.

I thought about a gun business some time ago: Find people moving to California, and have them make non-approved gun purchases before arriving. Upon settlement, a legal through-the-FFL sale is made, and the now-consignment gun is sold to a California subject.

I'd bet a whole lot of money that such a business would get shut down VERY quickly and anyone involved in it would be brought up on a lot of different charges for conspiring to circumvent the law or some other such rubbish.

 

[madkiwi]

Bountyhunter-

It is illegal under Federal law for a resident of any state to purchase a firearm privately in any state other than his/her state of residence.

It is illegal for an FFL to sell a gun to a resident of another state without transferring it through an FFL in that person's state. As no California based FFL is allowed to import a handgun not on the approved list...

So your California resident father cannot just wander into Nevada and buy a handgun to give to you. Can't legally happen.

There is one other loophole. If you have a parent that lives in another state, they can buy anything they want (except for "assault weapons- as mentioned there are no loopholes) and gift it to you. The gifting should be done in person (you visiting them, or them visiting you) but it is possible to have your out of state parent gift it through a CA based FFL. They would send it with a letter describing it as a gift etc. The problem is finding an FFL here who will accept delivery of the handgun because most don't want to take a chance on it.

I was going to go this route to buy an FN Five-seveN, right up to the point that FN "voluntarily" halted imports of the ammunition. That screwed up that plan.

I am not an attorney, FFL or expert. Do your own research and make sure you understand the laws, don't take an anonymous internet posting as being legal advice.

 

[EOD Guy]

The statement that one can drive out of state, purchase a non-list handgun, import it to California, and present it to a family member is strictly illegal and a violation of Federal law, I don't care what the California DOJ told you. They might be ok with it, but the Feds definitely are not!

Not sure about that, since it is a bona fide gift to a family member and thus is not a "straw man" purchase to circumvent the laws preventing people who may not buy guns from getting their hands on them.

As far as I know, it is not a violation of any federal law for a parent to give a child a gun as a gift since they have been doing it for hundreds of years. Whether the gun was purchased in state or not seems to me to be irrelevant.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have no idea how the FED would be able to bring charges if a law abiding citizen legally purchased a handgun and then gave it to his son or daughter who was also legally eligible to own guns under the law.

It is not the gift that is illegal, it is the purchase in another state. It is a violation of Federal law for a person to purchase a handgun in a state other than his state of residence. The person was advocating just that action.

 

[El Rojo]

2) Buy a brand new .44 mag DE and buy a .50 AE barrel and mags. It is perfectly legal to convert a .44 DE to .50, but not to buy a NIB .50 from out of state.

I was wondering about the possibility of this. Can anyone else confirm that the DE is easy to change calibers like this?

 

[bountyhunter]

I am not an attorney, FFL or expert. Do your own research and make sure you understand the laws, don't take an anonymous internet posting as being legal advice.

It appears you can't take the legal advice of the people who work at CaDOJ either...... I never tried to buy a gun in another state, so I'll assume they would refuse to do it unless you had a valid ID from that state.