But what if they want your wallet, and in the process find your gun. A gun is personal property, but no way am I going to let a criminal take my gun. This falls under the category that it is reasonable to assume that if they take your gun they are going to use it against you.
Are we Policemen?
- Thread starter art sr.
- Start date
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akodo said:
IMHO, that is kind of a strange way to think about it. You have stripped away all context and therefore all meaning. In a real self-defense scenario you don't have time to weigh the value of what a thief is taking compared to his life. Did he just take your Grandpa's Purple Heart or just the change on the coffee-table?
Maybe you could politely ask him.
If you have decided that a life is not worth the loss of property then why is your own life worth so little? Didn't you sell little bits of your life to get what you own?
As to the OP: No, I'm not a cop.
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The answer to your question is absolutely you are NOT a policeman. If you start acting like one, you'll end up in deep crap sooner or later.
There is no legal obligation to intervene. If by some sense of personal obligation you decide to do so, you are possibly risking your own life or the life of innocents if your action doesn't go as your wet dreams foresee. You'll also be at risk of criminal or civil legal action.
Even armed cops are not obligated to intervene if doing so causes an undo risk.
But, wannabes seldom listen to reason.
K
There is no legal obligation to intervene. If by some sense of personal obligation you decide to do so, you are possibly risking your own life or the life of innocents if your action doesn't go as your wet dreams foresee. You'll also be at risk of criminal or civil legal action.
Even armed cops are not obligated to intervene if doing so causes an undo risk.
But, wannabes seldom listen to reason.
K
art sr.
Member
We are not obligated art and are not expected to perform as police.
We can only hope to do the right and legal thing and come out on the plus side.Having been there, these dreadful situations are played out entirely by ear,instinct,self preservation and pure luck and circumstance.
May it never happen to you and yours.
We can only hope to do the right and legal thing and come out on the plus side.Having been there, these dreadful situations are played out entirely by ear,instinct,self preservation and pure luck and circumstance.
May it never happen to you and yours.
art sr.
Member
What is the right and legal thing to do? I appriciate your answer,but if the bg is waving a gun around threatening to shoot, do you wait until he shoot someone to do something or do you shoot when he is threatening to shoot? What is the right and legal thing to do? Could you be sued for wrongful death by the victims family if they found out you were carrying a gun and did nothing? These are things I think about because I know carrying a lethal weapon is a very LARGE responsibility. I only want to do what is right and legal, I have to live with myself. I want to thank everyone for their responce to this question.
Autolycus
Member
Nope.
FWIW - I was in an armed robbery of a convenience store many, many years ago. I wasn't armed, and had no permit then anyway.
In that situation, the two clerks were in a cashier island in the middle of the store, the BG was on one side, and I was on the other side, probably 20 feet from the island at the magazine rack.
He took the money and a six-pack of beer, and left. Even if he HAD started shooting, and I was legally armed, the two clerks were between us, so it would have been very risky to act....in THAT situation.
In that situation, the two clerks were in a cashier island in the middle of the store, the BG was on one side, and I was on the other side, probably 20 feet from the island at the magazine rack.
He took the money and a six-pack of beer, and left. Even if he HAD started shooting, and I was legally armed, the two clerks were between us, so it would have been very risky to act....in THAT situation.
divemedic
Member
My feeling is that anytime I see a weapon, or a person implies that he has a weapon, my life is in immediate danger. I am already at a distinct disadvantage.
The threat has the following advantages:
1 He obviously does not care about breaking the law.
2 He may not care about taking a life.
3 He entered my location in the frame of mind he is in, IOW he has had time to prepare himself mentally.
4 If he cares about jail, he may be willing to kill to escape or to eliminate witnesses.
5 He has probably already drawn his weapon.
I have a couple of distinct advantages at this point.
1 The threat does not know that I am armed
2 Chances are, I am faster and more accurate than the threat is.
3 Chances are, being greedy enough to commit robbery, he will be looking at his goal (the money, counter where the money is, the cash register, whatever) so he may have his back to you. This means you get anywhere from 1-2 shots before he knows you are there and armed, and 1-2 more before he knows your location. BIG advantage. We should all be able to draw and fire 2 shots COM each on two targets in less than 3.5 seconds.
Why wait for the threat to actually point a weapon at me? Why hesitate? If you see a weapon or one is implied, your life and the lives of the people around you are in imminent threat. He does not have to have his gun pressed against your temple in order to be a threat. Do not rely on the good will of the threat to protect your life. Me? I will maximize my advantages and engage the threat, shooting him in the back if I can. I have no duty or desire to arrest anyone. My only duty is to go home to my family.
The threat has the following advantages:
1 He obviously does not care about breaking the law.
2 He may not care about taking a life.
3 He entered my location in the frame of mind he is in, IOW he has had time to prepare himself mentally.
4 If he cares about jail, he may be willing to kill to escape or to eliminate witnesses.
5 He has probably already drawn his weapon.
I have a couple of distinct advantages at this point.
1 The threat does not know that I am armed
2 Chances are, I am faster and more accurate than the threat is.
3 Chances are, being greedy enough to commit robbery, he will be looking at his goal (the money, counter where the money is, the cash register, whatever) so he may have his back to you. This means you get anywhere from 1-2 shots before he knows you are there and armed, and 1-2 more before he knows your location. BIG advantage. We should all be able to draw and fire 2 shots COM each on two targets in less than 3.5 seconds.
Why wait for the threat to actually point a weapon at me? Why hesitate? If you see a weapon or one is implied, your life and the lives of the people around you are in imminent threat. He does not have to have his gun pressed against your temple in order to be a threat. Do not rely on the good will of the threat to protect your life. Me? I will maximize my advantages and engage the threat, shooting him in the back if I can. I have no duty or desire to arrest anyone. My only duty is to go home to my family.
LtShortcut
Member
Are we policemen? You say that as though a police officer would do something to defend you.
Police are not under any obligation to intervene and save your life or property. If you carry concealed and you feel someone is about to be murdered it's up to you to do what you will.
Me personally? I have an obligation to my family to stay alive and be there for them. I'm walking away.
Police are not under any obligation to intervene and save your life or property. If you carry concealed and you feel someone is about to be murdered it's up to you to do what you will.
Me personally? I have an obligation to my family to stay alive and be there for them. I'm walking away.
Before you decide to be a hero and help out, there are some things to consider.
I would suggest getting some training in force-on-force at a respected facility. It's an eye opener.
You know, the bad guys often don't just stand there to let you stop or shoot them.
We did this for the upcoming season of Personal Defense TV. Every time I tried to help out in a convenience store robbery, I got shot.
(Hint: Just because you see only one bad guy doesn't mean there is only one bad guy. Are there any customers there? How do you know one is not the lookout/backup for the robber. It sucks to get shot in the back when you are "saving" the day's receipts.)
Sure, if I see someone lining up children and shooting them, I'm going to act. A robbery? Probably not going to jump into it. I'll run to a safe place and make a phone call.
Try it real time with multiple players when you don't know who's who. It might change your ideas.
I would suggest getting some training in force-on-force at a respected facility. It's an eye opener.
You know, the bad guys often don't just stand there to let you stop or shoot them.
We did this for the upcoming season of Personal Defense TV. Every time I tried to help out in a convenience store robbery, I got shot.
(Hint: Just because you see only one bad guy doesn't mean there is only one bad guy. Are there any customers there? How do you know one is not the lookout/backup for the robber. It sucks to get shot in the back when you are "saving" the day's receipts.)
Sure, if I see someone lining up children and shooting them, I'm going to act. A robbery? Probably not going to jump into it. I'll run to a safe place and make a phone call.
Try it real time with multiple players when you don't know who's who. It might change your ideas.
sacp81170a
Member
Also consider that even as an off-duty LEO, you would be taking some mighty big risks in intervening. Responding uniformed officers will not be able to immediately tell the good guys from the bad guys, and anything you do may get you shot, including nothing.
In the case of a robbery in progress, I'd call for back up, take a position of advantage behind whatever cover was available, and either draw or prepare to draw discretely. Stay on the line with the dispatcher, give them your location, your description, the BG's description, etc. Above all be on the lookout for companions in crime. I would not intervene unless I thought there was going to be an immediate use of deadly force by the BG. You gotta understand, as the good guys, we have to care where every bullet fired goes, including the ones the BG might fire. If the situation can be resolved without shooting, that's my first choice, even as an LEO. It should be yours also.
In the case of a robbery in progress, I'd call for back up, take a position of advantage behind whatever cover was available, and either draw or prepare to draw discretely. Stay on the line with the dispatcher, give them your location, your description, the BG's description, etc. Above all be on the lookout for companions in crime. I would not intervene unless I thought there was going to be an immediate use of deadly force by the BG. You gotta understand, as the good guys, we have to care where every bullet fired goes, including the ones the BG might fire. If the situation can be resolved without shooting, that's my first choice, even as an LEO. It should be yours also.
K3
Member
Thing is, if he's in your house, do you REALLY know his intentions? If he tells you he's not going to do you harm, do you believe him? He's a criminal, thus more than likely a liar. I'd have a hard time trusting the word of a thief.
Every situation is different, so you really have to be in tune with what's going on before saying what you would or wouldn't do in a given situation. Too many variables.
It's pretty risky to try and decipher whether or not an assailant is just going to take your wallet and run, take your car, take some tools from your shed, whatever.
Somebody earlier said that '99.9%' of thieves are only wanting the money and to get a way. I wonder about that statistic.
As to the original question:
I don't have a badge, and I don't get a paycheck from the LPD. I'm pretty observant and have a knack for recalling details. I like to think I'd make a decent witness.
Orange_Magnum
member
Depends on the situation. If it's one robber, like at 7/11, and the robber is pointing a weapon to the head of the clerk, feel free to draw silently and take him out with a head shot. But a bank robbery, say 4 guys with machineguns, what can anyone do?
In a situation where you feel some one is harassing a person, you can always turn to the harssed person and ask, "Are you OK?" If the person needs help you can tell the harasser that he is not wanted. I tend to stay away from such situations though because most often the harasser and the harassed know each other and it's an old thing going on. You stepping in will not make a differance. Maybe they will both turn on you instead.
In a situation where you feel some one is harassing a person, you can always turn to the harssed person and ask, "Are you OK?" If the person needs help you can tell the harasser that he is not wanted. I tend to stay away from such situations though because most often the harasser and the harassed know each other and it's an old thing going on. You stepping in will not make a differance. Maybe they will both turn on you instead.
Frog48
Member
Agreed, I've gotta believe that its a bad idea. "Impersonation of a police officer/peace officer" will get the book thrown at you.
>>If it's one robber, like at 7/11, and the robber is pointing a weapon to the head of the clerk, feel free to draw silently and take him out with a head shot.<<
Right.
How do you know he's the only robber? Any customers there? Do you know they are all good guys and not his backup?
Sounds good when at the keyboard. Try it for real sometime.
It might surprise you.
Right.
How do you know he's the only robber? Any customers there? Do you know they are all good guys and not his backup?
Sounds good when at the keyboard. Try it for real sometime.
It might surprise you.
sacp81170a
Member
Exactly. Several good points have been made here, but there's another one to consider. As an LEO, if I make a mistake in good faith that gets someone hurt, any lawsuits filed will generally be against the city, i.e., I have some qualified immunity. No one will be coming after my house, my car, or my bank account unless I do something totally egregious. That won't apply to a non-sworn citizen. Even with that, my inclination is to be a good witness and prevent injury to others as much as possible. It may not be as "brave and bold" as some would advocate, but it's a good deal more intelligent.
Duke Junior
member
I engaged the BG,art,in a liguor store at 11.00 pm, on Dec.12,1998.For perhaps 30 seconds we fought over control of his .357 Magnum.
Fueled by meth or adranaline he finally got control and could have killed me.I am 6'2,210 and the BG was perhaps 5'6 ,150.
But his accomplice was dying from a shot inflicted by the store owner who was than already dead shot by the BG I was engaged with.
He than broke off contact with me and assisted his dying partner out of the store.
I am very ,very fortunate to be alive today.
Fueled by meth or adranaline he finally got control and could have killed me.I am 6'2,210 and the BG was perhaps 5'6 ,150.
But his accomplice was dying from a shot inflicted by the store owner who was than already dead shot by the BG I was engaged with.
He than broke off contact with me and assisted his dying partner out of the store.
I am very ,very fortunate to be alive today.
Maybe, maybe not. Specific circumstances will dictate whether the action is legally justified, and even if legally justified whether it's prudent to act. There is no blanket answer that would cover all robberies.
NO, NO, NO!!!!! You are NOT obligated to act, and more importantly you are NOT a law enforcement officer just because you have a gun. There is a hell of lot more to being a cop than simply carrying a weapon.
Few to no state/local governments accept that they have an obligation to protect you. If you call the police and they don't come, they aren't negligent and they aren't liable. You are responsible for protecting your life, safety, and property within the boundaries of the law.
No, we aren't police. Yes, we have rights and responsibilites that some people think only the police have.
No, we aren't police. Yes, we have rights and responsibilites that some people think only the police have.
I had a thread about a year back in which I revealed the mind set of my Advanced Tactical Shooting instructor versus how I, and others here at THR, feel about preparedness. The folks here at THR turned it into a really nice conversation. Link:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=321969&highlight=Prepared
Doc2005
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=321969&highlight=Prepared
Doc2005
lloydkristmas
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Absolutely not.
Once you strip away the context you see the heart of the issue.
setting aside 'sentimental value' what is the monitary amount at which lethal force is appropriate?
$10? $100? $5,000?
What if the item is one dollar below the threshold?
money is money, property is propery. You get your insurance payment and are made whole, or the perpitrator is caught, and you are made whole. Or possibly not.
Dead is dead, there is no going back
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