IL Residents: CCW not likely....

[Autolycus]

Our Opinion




Published Thursday, November 16, 2006


Concealed carry not likely any time soon

We are not shocked that 70 percent of those readers who responded to our recent news poll question answered that, yes, Illinois should adopt a law that would allow citizens to conceal and carry guns.

In fact, we are actually a bit surprised the “yes” vote wasn’t even larger given recent happenings.

For the past several days, Springfield has watched anxiously as the Springfield Police Department beefed up patrols to find one of the more brazen robbers of recent memory. Fortunately, the police think they got the guy responsible for the crime wave.

Springfield police arrested Gregory Hullum, 37, Tuesday night on charges he is the man who committed 10 armed robberies in the city since last Thursday. One robbery victim last week was shot in the abdomen and seriously wounded.

Such a heinous crime spree had many Springfield residents nervous about even ducking into a convenience store for carton of milk. It also had many people wishing it were legal to arm themselves in public with a gun. Making important decisions in the heat of the moment is seldom a good idea. The recent armed robbery spree does not prove that everyone needs to walk around with a gun. Whether to allow for concealed carry is a complex debate.

But let us commend the local police for their work on this matter. Anyone listening to police scanners the last few days knows that it was a tense and hectic time for law enforcement. In a situation like this, police cannot act quickly enough to please people. There were plenty of critics asking why the robber had not been caught.

But the outcome was a good one. Thanks in large part to the fact that trained, law enforcement professionals were in charge, the alleged robber was apprehended, apparently without more gunfire or violence.

We supposeit’s a backhanded compliment, but it’s sort of nice that Springfield can still get this upset over a series of armed robberies. That’s police blotter news in a lot of larger cities. Here it’s still screaming headlines on Page One.

That’s a good thing. Fear was only one emotion created by these crimes. People were also offended. You don’t shoot guys in the stomach and rob old ladies in our town and get away with it - at least we hope you don’t.

So, it’s not a shock that the reaction of a lot of people was wanting to strap a .38 or .45 on and find the scum that was creating this mayhem.

The problem is that most of us are only as cool as Dirty Harry in the film clip that is playing in our heads. Even a seasoned cop will tell you that facing a criminal with a gun - even with all of the training police undergo - is not a pleasant or easy task.

Should we have a concealed-carry law? It might make some people feel better, but don’t rush to the conclusion that such a law would have made a difference - at least a positive one - in this case.

What did make a difference is good police work. For that we should all be thankful and appreciative. Aside from some of downsides of arming civilians on the street, the political reality in Illinois is that concealed carry is not likely to happen any time soon. There is a mayor named Daley, a governor named Blagojevich and a city named Chicago that probably will make sure Illinois remains one of the few states where concealed carry is not the law.

Here is a link to the Article

 

[bclark1]

Ouch. It's nice to see the public support for CCW, but it's amazing how much damage an ignorant half-witted recent school of communications grad can do. With all due respect to any present company, the community of journalists hardly draws many MENSA candidates - when are they going to realize it's not their job to tell smarter, more productive people how to live their lives? I especially love the editorial columns where people know they're being rear-ends and don't want to put their name on it. Shame, I thought there was more common sense south of I-80 then to let such silly, sweeping proclamations run wild.

 

[Autolycus]

I want to know what kind of firearms experience the author has. It seems that they are so positive it is a bad idea. I want to hear the authors credentials.

 

[Jeff White]

What part of the editorial do you have a problem with, this?

The problem is that most of us are only as cool as Dirty Harry in the film clip that is playing in our heads. Even a seasoned cop will tell you that facing a criminal with a gun - even with all of the training police undergo - is not a pleasant or easy task.

This statement is true. Many people don't want to believe it, because American men are often born with a disease that makes them believe they came from the womb knowing all there is to know about guns, gunfighting, martial arts, driving and making love....The truth is, most don't.

Or maybe this?

Should we have a concealed-carry law? It might make some people feel better, but don’t rush to the conclusion that such a law would have made a difference - at least a positive one - in this case.

Because it's also true. Now that shall issue laws have been around awhile, there has yet to be a study that found they had any impact on crime. Not positive and not negative. It might have an impact if more people who got their CCW permits actually carried their weapons, but there are are a lot of studies that have shown that despite an initial groundswell of applicants for permits once shall issue becomes law, most permit holders don't carry very often and there isn't near the same amount of renewals when the permits expire.

And unfortunately this is also true;

the political reality in Illinois is that concealed carry is not likely to happen any time soon. There is a mayor named Daley, a governor named Blagojevich and a city named Chicago that probably will make sure Illinois remains one of the few states where concealed carry is not the law.

We're not going to get anywhere on this issue saying it will lower crime. It doesn't. The only way we're going to win is to make it a personal protection issue.

Jeff

 

[razorburn]

I'm guessing it's this :

So, it’s not a shock that the reaction of a lot of people was wanting to strap a .38 or .45 on and find the scum that was creating this mayhem

Combined with what you quoted. They're assuming that people wanting to CCW are vigilante dirty harry hero wannabes trying to seek confrontation, rather than that they might just want to be able to look out for themselves in case that lethal confrontation is brought to them.

I do notice that occassionally there is some truth to that sentiment. You'll see CCW'ers talking about how they'd draw out if they saw any crime occuring, and then commending themselves on their bravery. And conversing with some of them leaves a kind of sense that they might be that sort of person... but I still believe most CCW'ers are just normal, ordinary people looking to be able to look out for themselves, and not wannabes with hero fantasies.

 

[Autolycus]

Unfortunately the author does not agree with you Razorburn.

 

[Jeff White]

razorburn said;

Combined with what you quoted. They're assuming that people wanting to CCW are vigilante dirty harry hero wannabes trying to seek confrontation, rather than that they might just want to be able to look out for themselves in case that lethal confrontation is brought to them.

I agree that most CCW holders are just ordinary people looking for an effective means of self defense. But all one has to do is spend a few hours surfing the gun forums online and you'll quickly come away with the other impression.

Even here at THR we have people advocating carrying handcuffs and badges. The number of times I've posted "A CCW permit is not a peace officer's commission" in threads in Strategies and Tactics just amazes me. We're our own worst enemy when it comes to this particular issue.

Jeff

 

[El Tejon]

I disagree, CCWs would have helped. The proliferation of CCW licenses creates a climate that is not hospitable to criminals. That being the class the robbery would not have transpired had CCWs been the law of the Land of Lincoln.

What percentage of those that hold CCWs carry handcuffs and badges? How old are they and how long have they been carrying. I would speculate that 9 out of 10 of those that post responses on THR do not have CCW licenses as they are 14.

Jeff is dead on. Arguing with the inane utilitarian rhetoric of Lott, et al will get you nowhere in light of the crushing tyranny of Chicago's politics and cultural control. You must get Kantian. The problem is that a large majority of Illinois citizens do not want freedom from the government, they want free stuff from the government.

 

[Jeff White]

El Tejon said;

I disagree, CCWs would have helped. The proliferation of CCW licenses creates a climate that is not hospitable to criminals. That being the class the robbery would not have transpired had CCWs been the law of the Land of Lincoln.

You're not really saying that CCW has eliminated armed robbery in shall issue states? I don't think that enough CCW holders actually carry to make a difference. I think a BG is more worried about running into an armed citizen in a residence then they are on the street. What do your clients say about this? Any of them ever pass on a potential victim because they thought he was carrying?

What percentage of those that hold CCWs carry handcuffs and badges? How old are they and how long have they been carrying. I would speculate that 9 out of 10 of those that post responses on THR do not have CCW licenses as they are 14.

Could be, but none the less that is the public image we're presenting. I don't know how to fix it. It's not as bad here as it is on some other forums, but I fear in Illinois and Wisconsin all those bold, chestbeating threads are going to hurt our cause.

Jeff

 

[romma]

Because it's also true. Now that shall issue laws have been around awhile, there has yet to be a study that found they had any impact on crime. Not positive and not negative.

I disagree with this statement. Everytime I read about a CCW holder successfully defending themself with a firearm, either killing or wounding a BG, I firmly believe that there has been an impact on crime. Perhaps incalcuable, but an impact nonetheless...

 

[CNYCacher]

How is it possible for 70% of a populace to want a specific law passed and not have it happen?

 

[ilbob]

How is it possible for 70% of a populace to want a specific law passed and not have it happen?

Could be any number of things. Just to mention a few.

1. Could be the 70% figure is not accurate.

2. Could be that while 70% want the law, they don't want it enough to make it a priority with their elected representatives.

3. Could be that they are willing to live without one thing they want to get something else (like some freebee from government).

I am betting it is some combination of factors like everything else political.

 

[razorburn]

I agree that most CCW holders are just ordinary people looking for an effective means of self defense. But all one has to do is spend a few hours surfing the gun forums online and you'll quickly come away with the other impression.

Even here at THR we have people advocating carrying handcuffs and badges. The number of times I've posted "A CCW permit is not a peace officer's commission" in threads in Strategies and Tactics just amazes me. We're our own worst enemy when it comes to this particular issue.

I know. And then they have the gall to further admonish the rest of us telling us we're cowards or have lost the pro-active american way or some rubbish like that. It's absolutely amazing. The self appointed cop ccwer who wants to play out a hero fantasy is one of the publics greatest fears about allowing CCW. Please don't encourage this stuff guys. Please use it only to look out for you and your when your livlihood is endangered.

 

[Old Fuff]

I forget the exact number, but something like 40 states have "shall issue" CCW laws, and the one in Florida goes back to 1989...

Where exactly have those laws, and the issuance of concealed weapons carry permits seriously (or even noticeably) impacted public safety in a negative manner.

Where is the "blood in the street" that the anti-gunners are always pointing to?

Is it not possible that the thug in Springfield was encouraged by the fact that he could do his thing in an environment where armed resistance from anyone but police officers was improbable?

Why is it expected that if Illinois or Wisconsin should adopt a CCW law their experience will be any different then the states that now have them?

And does anyone think that news media in Illinois - Springfield in particular - is going to address any of these questions?

Illinois will get a CCW law only after Chicago drops into Lake Michigan... :banghead:

 

[Jeff White]

It was 70% of the people who responded to a news poll. It doesn't say how many people responded. If it's like most news polls it is for entertainment purporses only and you can't really draw any conclusions from it.

Could be the poll was posted on a gun forum or two and that skewed the numbers.

I'd be shocked if the number of Illinois citizens who were for CCW was even 30%. Let's face it, it's a non issue for most of the population. It's not something people outside the gun culture even think about. I'd bet you'd find a higher percent of the Illinois population who actually believed we had CCW. Remember most of the public gets all it's firearm knowledge from the entertainment media. Fictional private investigators have CCW permits, fictional doctors on TV dramas get CCW permits. I have run into a lot of people who think they can get a CCW permit if they want one. I even had one guy insist that a circuit judge could issue one in domestic violence cases and he even claimed to know someone who had one.

The general public in Illinois is ignorant of the law and apathetic towards changing it.

Jeff

 

[foghornl]

How is it possible for 70% of a populace to want a specific law passed and not have it happen?

I can answer that in 6 words ....

Emperor "DICK" Daley II of Chikago

 

[ilbob]

I even had one guy insist that a circuit judge could issue one in domestic violence cases and he even claimed to know someone who had one.

Many years ago there was a Chicago municipal court judge who actually used to issue such permits. I was acquainted with a women he had issued such a permit to and she showed it to me. Looked like a basic judicial order, but among other things it authorized her to carry. I doubt it had any legal validity.

But back then in Chicago, many people regularly carried, and usually the cops did not care as long as you had a FOID. My neighbor's daugter was a nurse and she was attacked one night in the hospital parking lot. Ending up shooting the guy. Cops gave her gun back before releasing her a couple hours after the shooting. I don't recall they ever found the perp. I was real surprised they gave her the gun back. Would have thought it was evidence.

 

[El Tejon]

Jeff, eliminated? By no means. What does happen is a substitution effect or keeping the crime localized to lower SES areas.

Among the people I have represented, the consensus is to avoid white males who are more likely to be armed unless it can be ascertained that the target is unarmed (there was a popular hip hop song in Indianapolis that mentions this by the "Naptown Rollers"). However, I acknowledge that my antedotal evidence is meaningless overall.

 

[Phetro]

The problem is that most of us are only as cool as Dirty Harry in the film clip that is playing in our heads. Even a seasoned cop will tell you that facing a criminal with a gun - even with all of the training police undergo - is not a pleasant or easy task.

This statement is true. Many people don't want to believe it, because American men are often born with a disease that makes them believe they came from the womb knowing all there is to know about guns, gunfighting, martial arts, driving and making love....The truth is, most don't.

It is true--facing death or great bodily harm is not a walk in the park. And yet, many people do it everyday without panicking. You don't need to "know everything there is to know" to function well under stress, including in combat. Training certainly helps a lot in this area, which is why the average police officer is better than the average non-officer.

I really don't think CCW lowers crime either. I used to, but not anymore. What I do know is that it never increases crime, and that alone is enough to have shall-issue nationwide without worrying about it.

 

[Don Gwinn]

I don't really follow that one--if facing an armed robber is not easy or pleasant for an armed and trained individual, does that lead the Editors to believe that it's safer, easier, or more pleasant when one is unarmed?

Well, whatever. I'll send them a letter. Personally I think we're seeing the beginnings of an upsurge in interest in CCW, at least downstate. I don't have an answer for Chicago, though.

 

[Deanimator]

But back then in Chicago, many people regularly carried, and usually the cops did not care as long as you had a FOID. My neighbor's daugter was a nurse and she was attacked one night in the hospital parking lot. Ending up shooting the guy. Cops gave her gun back before releasing her a couple hours after the shooting. I don't recall they ever found the perp. I was real surprised they gave her the gun back. Would have thought it was evidence.

It depends a lot upon who you are too.

I've got an anti-gun friend who's a criminal defense attorney. He said the ONLY White people he EVER saw in "gun court" were judges, bailiffs and testifying officers. By his observation, when stopped by the Chicago PD, Whites were released with their guns. Blacks were arrested, tried and got jail time. Even a guy who thought all handguns should be banned had a problem with THAT.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't really follow that one--if facing an armed robber is not easy or pleasant for an armed and trained individual, does that lead the Editors to believe that it's safer, easier, or more pleasant when one is unarmed?

It's simple. When faced with lethal force, SUBMIT. Every anti-gun person knows that you can trust in the forebearance and judgement of somebody who uses lethal force or the threat of same to impose his selfish will on others. Just ask; they'll explain to you how armed robbery is a "tax". Strangely, when I ask them what rape is, they don't have an answer.

 

[Jeff White]

The problem is that most of us are only as cool as Dirty Harry in the film clip that is playing in our heads. Even a seasoned cop will tell you that facing a criminal with a gun - even with all of the training police undergo - is not a pleasant or easy task.

Maybe I'm not politically oriented enough to see this the way some of the rest of you are. I read this to be a lesson to the person who thinks a CCW permit and gun is a magic talisman that would ward off evil. I didn't read it as the hand wringing statement to mean it's futile to attempt to defend yourself.

Personally I think it's a pretty smart thing to tell anyone who is contemplating carrying a firearm for personal protection. We talk all the time about how CCW should be a personal choice and that one shouldn't go into it blindly. I think this statement fits in with that position.

Jeff

 

[Phetro]

Maybe I'm not politically oriented enough to see this the way some of the rest of you are. I read this to be a lesson to the person who thinks a CCW permit and gun is a magic talisman that would ward off evil. I didn't read it as the hand wringing statement to mean it's futile to attempt to defend yourself.

Personally I think it's a pretty smart thing to tell anyone who is contemplating carrying a firearm for personal protection. We talk all the time about how CCW should be a personal choice and that one shouldn't go into it blindly. I think this statement fits in with that position.

Jeff

Ooo, I hadn't thought of that either. I guess it can be seen as a not-so-subtle hit to the idea of defending oneself.

Still, facts are facts, and combat--in particular urban combat--is not pleasant. It's fast, furious, and unpredictable. I'm not afraid to admit it's very frightening (often after the fact). Back when I was 21, I actually wanted that sort of thing in my life. Nowadays I'm glad I live in rural Indiana where the most vicious "enemy" I have is my own cat struggling to open the food cabinet and clawing anyone who gets in her way.

 

[ilbob]

I've got an anti-gun friend who's a criminal defense attorney. He said the ONLY White people he EVER saw in "gun court" were judges, bailiffs and testifying officers. By his observation, when stopped by the Chicago PD, Whites were released with their guns. Blacks were arrested, tried and got jail time. Even a guy who thought all handguns should be banned had a problem with THAT.

I don't know. My neighbour was black as they get, and so was his daughter. Of course what was so in my little piece of Chicago in 1980, is probably no longer the case.