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Are we screwed?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by HBK, Feb 14, 2004.

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  1. HBK

    HBK member

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    It seems to me that our country is on its way down the toilet. The general morals of our society are practically non existent. It's not really even LEGAL to defend your property anymore. You can defend your life, but if you do a civil suit may bankrupt you. Our bill of rights is up for debate. Free speech means immoral groupl like NAMBLA can have a web site on the net that tells perverts how to pick up little boys. A big deal is made about the so called "separation of church and state," even though no such thing is mentioned in our constitution. People use the term "civil liberties" for whatever perversion takes their fancy and say it's protected by the constitution. Our founding fathers are denigrated for whatever character flaws can be found or made up about them. This then leads to the conclusion by liberals that they were flawed, so our country's law of the land should be changed. I'm starting to think that the only thing that can save our country is a 2nd American Revolution, but can't really see that happening. We are going to outsource our jobs and not help americans desperately in need of work. People will say, "Things aren't so bad that we need to have a second revolution. We still can have food clothing and shelter." I know that's true, but knowing what our country was and how it was founded and seeing what it has become and is becoming is just killing me inside. Sorry to be so negative. I still write my congress people, do all the things we do to keep what rights we have left, but I am losing hope.
     
  2. I'mSpartacus!

    I'mSpartacus! Member

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  3. Nick1911

    Nick1911 Member

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    I think a lot of that is because 97% of our society is ignorant and indifferent to politics or how our society is going. Most seem concerned that they have a job, new car, and house in the suberbs. Things will have to get pretty bad before people will care about the state of their rights, and by then it'll be too late, IMHO.
    Nick
     
  4. HBK

    HBK member

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    Both of you are right. A vote for Kerry would enable our slide to proceed at a much faster pace.
    Nick, you are right, most people, as long as they are comfortable, they aren't concerned about the state of their rights. I don't think they aren't concerned, but they just assume everything is good as far as their rights are concerned.
    I want the slide to stop and for the American people start to climb back up and make our country what it was. I really believe that the suspension of the right to defend your property with deadly force is one of the root causes of this slide.
     
  5. dischord

    dischord Member

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    Most of the things you are upset with -- from NAMBLA to denigrating the founders to exporting jobs -- involve activities you would like to see stopped.

    Thus, I conclude you are proposing a revolution to limit freedoms. How would you control your moral revolution so it wouldn't encroach your liberties while stopping those freedoms you don't want recognized?

    FWIW: as much as I find NAMBLA a disgusting organization, talking about how to do XYZ and actually doing it are two separate things. Where would you draw the line on discussions of illegal activity? Would you allow discussions of making nukes? ...of the "need" for genocide against ABC ethnic group? ... of how to game the tax code to make a gay "marriage" work?

    :) <-- by the way.
     
  6. HBK

    HBK member

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    Good point. I really don't know to tell you the truth. It seems like their is no remedy for this ill. A revolution wouldn't be like the first one where there was a clear outside enemy. It would be more like a civil war. The country right now is divided more than it was during the civil war, but it is not as clearly defined logistically. I guess any fighting will have to be philosophical. :( I suck at that.
     
  7. HunterGatherer

    HunterGatherer member

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    It's hard not to lose hope these days, but I try to keep in mind that America's best and brightest are afield right now defending our country. Some day soon they will return and the bell curve won't look quite so flat as it does right now.

    Also keep in mind that much of what we are witnessing is the last hurrah of the leftist scumbags of the Klinton generation. Bubba Klinton started the last hurrah, and during his tenure in office he managed to lose both houses of congress, and the Whitehouse. And now with the help of Weasly Clark, Terry McCauliffe, and other assorted dupes he is turning the Demonrats upon themselves to further his and Hitlery's lust for the Presidency.

    When I really need cheering up, I go to a pro-troop rally. I went to one at Ft. Lewis where some anti-war types were planning to hang their anti-American BS from the overpasses on I-5 in order to demoralize the troops as much as possible. The convoys taking the brigade out to their transports were going to have to travel right under those overpasses.

    With the help of a local talk-radio station a couple thousand of us were able to get there a little early. And even though the wind was whipping, and squall lines of 10 minute downpours were sweeping through, we held 5 of those overpasses. People had brought homemade signs, flags, snare drums, you name it. One guy had an absolutely gigantic American flag. It was only buy the grace of God that it didn't get torn loose from him by the wind.

    No anti-American rats found welcome on any of the overpasses those soldiers had to go under. None of those soldiers got to see anything other than their countrymen's love and respect for them that day. As a kid who grew up in the 70s, a time when anti-American scum were tolerated, I was absolutely ecstatic that day.

    I'd waited 30+ years for a day like that.
     
  8. Bruce H

    Bruce H Member

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    It's divided because every race and ethnic group wants their own little paradise. The United States of America should be about all for one and one for all. Instead its about what have you got for me. Untill we finally understand that we have to all work together for the betterment we will regress into the tribal nature of our ancestors.
     
  9. mrapathy2000

    mrapathy2000 member

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    if kerry is elected president we are very well screwed.

    I am voting for bush though I dont like what he has done on border security we have people terrorised with illegals crossing the border daily keeping Border patrol busy all day long. I am not a fan of his spending either. excellent job on war on terror and removing saddam and drawing out terrorist to iraq rather than focussing effort in america(hopefully).

    the patriot act I am not a fan of but after 911 the government needed to reassess every single threat to the country and go through every bit of intelligence it had. did it violate rights yes but it was not normal every day life the country was just attacked and thousands were dead. would president still be around if he let people go not being sure they were not terrorist or linked to anything and have the country attacked again with 100 if not 1,000's more dead. he would very well be branded a failure for not doing enough to keep things from happening again.

    I will be building a SHTF pack regardless who is president after november. better to have and not need then to need and not have specially during an emergency.

    terrorism is not the only threat. china,russia and a number of other countries could go on a rampage if something bad enough happened. nuclear war is not a impossibility specially with nuclear proliferation that took place in last number of years.
     
  10. 7.62FullMetalJacket

    7.62FullMetalJacket Member

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    Dischord,

    Yes, you are right to point out the issue of enforcing morals. HBK cited symptoms, not the cause. Never "treat" a symptom, treat instead the cause.

    The activities HBK has a problem with are caused by overt government implementation of rights at any price. If the government did only what is allowed to do by the rules, then no such harbors for deviance would be accepted.

    If we, as free people, practiced association (as guaranteed), deviance would be shunned, not glorified. Each of us in our daily life would make decsions which would shape our society rather than having the government step in at every turn and make those decisions for us. This includes social engineering via the tax code to 1.6 gal/flush toilets.

    The US Constitution directs the government to keep out of certain arenas of freedom. Slowly, over time, government has encroached on these prohibited arenas. NAMBLA would not exist openly unless its "rights" were protected by government. This turns the constitution on its head. The Holy Writ states that the government may not infringe on specific inalienable rights - citizens can do whatever they want. When you hear the Hollyweird people shouted down for all their stupidity, they cite the 1st amendment. However, it is not the government shouting them down, it is us. We have that right. That is our free speech right.

    HBK may not have been around long enough to understand that this is not a Klinton problem. He is a product of the decay. This decay has been occuring since the 30's (social welfare) and the 60's (no social boundaries).

    Even Reagan could not stop the slide. All we can do is hope to slow the slide. Short of revolution, we are doomed to continue the slide, either fast or slow, until the end, whatever that may entail

    We are already a nanny state, sucking the life blood from the productive to support the unproductive. Providing protections to the deviants at the expense of the moral. Sacrificing human life and comfort to save the snail darter or the weed du jour.

    All we really want is a level playing field so that the individual will still matter. So that the individual can pursue freedom and liberty with independence and self-reliance.
     
  11. romulus

    romulus Member

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    If xyz is a criminal offense, such as sexual contact with minors, then how is online detailed encouragement of such offense not incitement to commit a crime, a crime in itself?
     
  12. dischord

    dischord Member

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    I'm not sure about that, but in any event, if they did not exist openly, they'd exist in secret -- out of the sight of the parents who need to protect their children. I'd rather have an open NAMBLA than a secret NAMBLA. I'd rather they'd publish their "dating tips" so I can teach my child how to recognize and avoid them.
    I agree. However, the government (AFAIK) is not stopping us from shouting them down. Making false claims about us "violating" their free speech is, well, part of their free speech -- their mob-intimidation tactics are no more a violation of our free speech than our shouting them down. In fact, they are attempting to employ the same shunning tactics you mention.
    Yes we are. However, stopping the exportation of jobs -- one of HBK's complaints -- by any means other than the free market would further the nanny state. No offence to HBK, but that concern is lockstep with the big-government Democratic labor unions.

    :) to one and all.
     
  13. 7.62FullMetalJacket

    7.62FullMetalJacket Member

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    I guess I missed one other important point. The exportation of jobs is a symptom of massive government regulation driving up the costs of goods and services. While it is true that some of the regulations perform positively in improving the quality of life, we are beyond the point of diminishing returns where regulations are applied because bureaucrats have nothing to do but protect their jobs.

    In their minds, if a little is good, then more must be better. The safest workplace, according to OSHA, is one where no work occurs. The cleanest industry, according to the EPA, is one where no product, or by-product, is produced.

    A true free market would equalize the exportation of jobs. Even a loosening of the reins would have a significant effect.
     
  14. dischord

    dischord Member

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    Perhaps the NAMBLA stuff crosses the line from detailed discussion into incitement and ought to be a crime. I simply pointed out that the heinous act itself and the discussion of how to commit it are not the same things.

    In any event, I'd rather their information not be driven into the underground so that I can be more aware of the danger.
     
  15. dischord

    dischord Member

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    Yes it is, but HBK's complaint was voiced as a call for action against the exporters, not a call to end government regulation that creates the need for exportation -- "We are going to outsource our jobs and not help americans desperately in need of work." At least that's how I read it -- if I'm wrong, I apologize to HBK.

    In any event, we seem to be in a semantic discussion while agreeing on most of the philosophical elements.
     
  16. 7.62FullMetalJacket

    7.62FullMetalJacket Member

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    Agreed. As I stated, HBK was promoting a solution to the symptom, not the problem.
     
  17. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    HBK: I notice you list your location as "a liberal hellhole".

    FWIW:

    I too live in one, and what I guess I want to say is that being steeped in the toxic air of such a place warps your perspective after a while.

    Oddly enough, the antidote is to travel to the real America, and spend some time among like minded folks, just to remind yourself that there are still plenty of real Americans out there, and that decent folks aren't a dying breed.
     
  18. AnklePocket

    AnklePocket Guest

    Don't fall into the trap that I did/am still in thinking that a liberal hellhole is comprised only of liberals. There are real Americans everywhere in America, even in my town. A horrible email went out to hundreds in my community slamming the war on terror and supporting Kerry. I "Replied All" with a right wing feeding frenzy and got only positive responses.
    Spewing the truth might be the wake-up call that many need. I've got some specific things going on to speed up that process in my own little slice of liberal fire and brimstone.
    I guess that what I'm trying to say is to not be influenced by extremely dysfunctional politics and unAmerican thinking. Be part of the solution and not the problem.
    We spent the day looking at homes in Pennsylvania and we might just stay in New Jersey and spread the good word. There's a lot more good people than we get credit for because of the extraordinary dereliction of duty of our elected officials.
    And, of course, my knife training is out of this world since we can't exercise our 2nd Amendment Rights. Most bad guys would probably prefer that I had a gun, really.
     
  19. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Learning history is enlightening; it's not, however, very often encouraging.
     
  20. BHPshooter

    BHPshooter Member

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    HBK, I'm with ya, man. I feel pretty depressed about "things" in our country a lot.

    Are we screwed? Not yet, and the outlook doesn't look too bright, but there is still much to be done.

    Yeah, it's hard. It's depressing. It's aggravating.

    Stick in there, though. Keep taking people to the range. Keep writing your comb-overs on the hill. Keep helping other people to get involved.

    They say that the smallest minority is always the loudest. If we can get a little more of the gun-owning majority to speak up, we'll be alright.

    It's our job though, and no one's going to do it for us.

    Wes
     
  21. artherd

    artherd member

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    We may be screwed, or we may be just fine in the years to come.

    Either way, we're well armed as the ultimate insurance against tyrants.

    [​IMG]
     

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  22. Norton

    Norton Member

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    I agree with many of the opinions already stated here, I mean....hey, I'm a teacher...what's not to be depressed about when dealing with the lowest common denominator of today's yutes?

    OTOH....I am energized by a couple of things that make it bearable to keep at least trying to follow "the high road". For one, I see a lot more of by best and brightest rejecting the socialist doctrine endemic to many of the public schools. I am also seeing a few (very few admittedly) teachers like myself who are unabashed in their rejection of the socialist agenda.

    In addition, while I know that we MD'ers are a long way from freeing our state, I am excitied that our teamwork payed off in the last couple weeks in stalling the progress of the new AWB. We may not win the "war" this time around, but hopefully we will at least succeed with this battle.

    Spot77 and I had a discussion on the way to the gun show today concerning our friend Cliff here on THR who made an excellent post the other day regarding his being a black conservative in Prince George's County, MD and the problems that he deals with by not being in lock-step with the NAACP/Black Activist agenda. My comment was that if we start seeing this kind of encouraging transformation in PG County, we may start seeing a sea-change of sorts amongst well-off blacks in this state as they start feeling the unjustness of the nanny welfare state propagated by the Baltimore and DC suburbs.

    Remember everyone, if you can convert two people and they convert two people and so on, and so on.........
     
  23. HBK

    HBK member

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    I'm a teacher too, so that's probably part of it. The funny thing is that most of my students, even the laziest ones, are pretty conservative. The ones I come in contact with know where I stand anyway. I always tell them to not take my word for anything, but search for the truth. Although our politician leaders may not agree, there's only one truth on most issues, not the gray area they fight to cling to like it's there last breath. I just look at some of the battles we have to fight and think, "We are even having this conversation in the USA?" Thanks for lifting my spirits back up, folks. I'm ready to fight the good fight now. :)
     
  24. kbr80

    kbr80 member

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    Yes, we feel it more now because the Government cut backs forced them to use a cheaper brand of K Y.
     
  25. JitsuGuy

    JitsuGuy Member

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    Unless people wake up, yes.

    J
     
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