Are we screwed?

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It seems to me that our country is on its way down the toilet. The general morals of our society are practically non existent...

That's just not the case. For example Church attendence in the US is at near record levels. You need to stop thinking of Hollywood as representative of the entire US and stop equating minor blips like NAMBLA websites or Janet Jackson's Super Bowl antics with the overall trend in the US. Teen pregnancy is down, crime is way down, etc.., there are far more positive indicators than negative ones.
 
People have said this same thing for the past 300 years. And they will probably keep saying it for the next hundred years. I suppose its POSSIBLE that our country has been circling the drain since day one. but, personally i think its more a matter of perspective. Old timers have longed for the good ole days for as long as old timers have been around. I bet if you go back far enough in time you could find some guy who'd tell you how much better things were before that "wheel thingy" made everyone so lazy.
 
So oldtimers have been pining for the good old days for forever? Doesn't make the observations in this thread any less justified.

The good old days didn't have rampant govt-subsidized fatherless bastard children.

The good old days didn't have NAMBLA protected as free speech.

The good old days didn't have a commerce clause in the COnstitution stretched wide enough to fit a fleet of trucks thru.

The good old days didn't have TV execs whining about the vagueness of the term "indecency."

The good old days didn't have packs of teenage thug wannabees at the mall, making decent folks feel nervous.

I could go on, but you get the point...
 
This decay has been occuring since the 30's (social welfare) and the 60's (no social boundaries).

Yep, and over time the leftist and other "progressives" have come to truly believe that that is what the "real" America is about.

The other side looks back to the Constitution and the Founding Fathers as what the "real" America is about.

Hence, the culture wars that have been going on since at least the 60s, in which the "Constitution" side has been getting soundly thrashed until recently, mainly given that once you give something to people, its hard to take it away.

One half of this country looks to Europe, Canada, and Australia as ideals; the other wants us to keep our own identity.
 
It's neither a total downward spiral nor a total upward climb. It depends on what you are talking about. Some things have gotten worse (plenty of valid examples here), but some things have gotten better. For example:

The good old days did have lynchings and kangaroo courts.

The good old days did have most people look the other way at, if not approve of, child and spouse beating.

The good old days did have most states less friendly to the idea of citizens' carrying weapons.

The good old days did have most people dead by age 40 or 50.

The good old days did have plenty of children molested by adults (we just didn't know about it like we do now ... don't confuse greater awareness with greater occurence).

The good old days did have a lower standard of living (yeah, it would be even higher now if there weren't so much government interference).

I could go on, but you get the picture.
 
A society based on rights also needs restraint. If everyone uses their rights to the theoretical limit, order and civilization are impossible. That's the idea needed to connect those concerned about moral lapse with those pointing out that freedom protects those moral lapses.

An activity or advocacy of an idea may be legal; it may be constitutionally protected. That doesn't mean that it is good for the long-term survival of the society. The obsession with sex and violence of our society today is so much like ancient Rome just before the Germans overran the place that it's scary.
 
The world according to Heinlein

Who here has read Robert Heinlein? i remember in a whole slew of books, "Starship Troopers" "The Cat that Walks Through Walls" and others.

I remember one story he wrote where all men and women were armed, it was required. Arguments were settled on the spot with the permanent tort suit. You could opt out and wear a "brassard" but that meant you werent a real man.

Im a lil leery of that much personal freedom, but its a often seen quote on this board "an armed society is a polite society" and who said that--Bob Heinlein

Furthermore the merits of "Starship Troopers" come to mind. Forget the bloodsplashed movie, as cool as it was. Other than the occasional mention they completely left out the political message of the book. Military service to earn the Privilege of voting speaks to me. Im 21 and in the Navy as a Midshipman so yes i feel that i can speak on this. Public Whippings might be a good thing for crime too, hell watching that on tv would be better than fear factor and other prime time "schiesse"

I challenge all of y'all to go read Heinlein's books, esp. his short stories.


As for the good ole days

I dont care about the "good ole days" the main thing is i want to be left alone, i dont need big brother watching me, i learned firearms safety at 4 years of age. :cuss: I want us out the UN, those gun grabbing, no good, lying, worthless, and other non-profane insults, i hate em, my uncle was a weapons inspector for them, COVER-UP central, those rag head camel schtuppers are dirty as hell.

I was a Republican, im now a libertarian, Thanks to y'all :D

Now im almost a Bircher, but thats another thread totally
 
Dang so many shall issue states, and I ain't in one of em.:mad:

Thats a neat map, however don't confuse 'statute' with actual practice. Hopefully the other 49 actually use the law if they have it.

Though the outlook may be at times bleak, we soldier on while hope remains.
 
The good old days did have lynchings and kangaroo courts.

true

The good old days did have most people look the other way at, if not approve of, child and spouse beating.

They really didnt even need to look the other way cause it wasnt generally considered to be wrong in the first place. but, true.

The good old days did have most states less friendly to the idea of citizens' carrying weapons.

Partial truth. But, you should research exactly when people were allowed to carry concealed weapons. you might be suprised. (look at micro's handy graph.)

The good old days did have most people dead by age 40 or 50.

Depends on how far back you go. But, there is some truth to this.

The good old days did have plenty of children molested by adults (we just didn't know about it like we do now ... don't confuse greater awareness with greater occurence).

yep

The good old days did have a lower standard of living (yeah, it would be even higher now if there weren't so much government interference).

yep

In other words i agree with dischord, progress is generally just that, progress.
 
I read that story about the overpasses in Ft. Lewis and it reminded me of something...

For those that read my thread a while ago, I'm writing a book about my experiences in the military, namely the search and recovery ops at the pentagon.

We were out there doing the cleanup, and nightly we'd load up on the deuce and a halfs and go back to Ft. Myer for a few hours sleep.


Every single night, there was a HUGE amount of people on the grass next to the navy annex, cheering for us. It was the biggest feeling of appreciation I've ever felt.

Well, when we finally got a day off, my friend Boyer and I went down to the candlelight vigil to put up a flag on the fence.

While down there, we got interviewed by the BBC, who were total jerks to us, trying to get us to express "our" disgust for the presidents "dead or alive" attitude. I told him that, as commander in chief, the president had my complete and 100% support.

Anyways, as we were getting ready to leave, a kid tugged on my pantleg. I thought it was kinda odd that he was out here at 11:00 at night, but whatever. I bent down to see what he needed, and he handed me a little american flag.

His mom informed me that his dad was either injured or killed in the pentagon (I can't remember which, sorry... in fact, I can't remember a lot of things about my time out there.)

Apparently he'd been out there since 10AM waiting for a soldier to give a flag to. His mom told him that we were out there looking for people, and he forced his mom to take him by throwing a tantrum... :cool:

I lost my marbles at that point... Poor kid. I'm 6'6" and over 200 pounds, and I was squeezing this kid, cryin like a little schoolgirl.

What did I learn about that incident? That there's always hope for america. As long as a kid that young will stay out that late to simply make a soldier feel better, I'd say there's hope yet.

I hate what's happened to our country, but I find reasons to love America everyday. I think that loving america, while unpopular as of late, will see a resurgance.

I only have to talk to the babysitter that my mom occasionally hires to feel that way.

She emmigrated from the middle east some years back. She was a refugee, but she desired to work toward obtaining real citizenship. Her husband was some kind of political opponent of whatever radical Islam group ran that particular country. He unvieled her as they stepped off the plane, telling her "you will never have to hide your face again here."

I love america. Most of us here love america, and a good portion of the public loves america. Give it some time for our soldiers and citizens to gain more experience in life, and run for office.

I'd say we won't have to deal with the lesser of two evils too much longer.


James
 
joonya187, I live in a "may issue" state, and it might as well be a "no issue".

I haven't read the entire thread yet, haven't had my first cup of coffee to jump start my heart. It just seems to me that as long as we're comfortable, have nice houses, televisions to entertain us, lots of events at the stadium, plenty of food, lots of beer and chips, and decent or better cars, we'll put up with a lot.
 
Edward Gibbon said it best. The Parallels are truly disturbing. PM me and I'll be glad to send you a copy.
 
"Are we screwed?"

Yes, we are, unless ....

"For example Church attendence in the US is at near record levels"

So what? If not the message sent from the pulpet is true & complete. Times were thatthe pulpet was an invigorating force for positive change in this country. No longer. It's mostly a "let's all get along" theme which disgusts me. & apologies to yours if not so - &way inadvance so as to not offend.

Literally, we've a choice before us: do you wanna be a socialist, or a fascist? (Demos or Repubs)

Frankly, I reject both, 'cause neither expouses the ideals of the Declaration, nor the Consitution, nor the Bill of Rights.

I've always voted for the lesser of the two evils & never will again.

Wasted vote? maybe, but w/o voting for who actually stands for what these things stand for, we will never again have what this country was founded upon.
 
How bad is your life?
Any trouble with deathsquads lately?
Any relatives "disappeared?"
Been brought up on sedition charges recently?
Are your children starving because all your crops were seized for redistribution?
Had your house or business vandalized because of your religion?
Any family members lynched because of skin color?
Blue helmets kick in your door and confiscate your guns this AM?
The police beat or torture you lately?

No, we aren't screwed.
You may not like certain societal changes, but life is better in the US right now for more people than ever.
 
So what? If not the message sent from the pulpet is true & complete. Times were thatthe pulpet was an invigorating force for positive change in this country. No longer. It's mostly a "let's all get along" theme which disgusts me. & apologies to yours if not so - &way inadvance so as to not offend.

The Church I attend is not one that could be described as a "go along get along" type, however I do know a few that fit that description. They ordain openly gay ministers, approve same-sex marriages, etc.

Even in those churches however, it's still apparent that most who attend are looking for an ethical basis to life, and that's a good sign. And of course that search is not limited to the Christian churches.





edited for spelling CHL22:36
 
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Golgo-13,

"How bad is your life?"

Actually, my life sucks right now," but that's another issue due to current health problems & other than the below. You, or anyone, is welcome to PM me as far as what my life has become. Frankly, I''d welcome it, from some of y'all.

"Any trouble with deathsquads lately?"

Somehwhat. I was almost shot to death recently for merely appearing on-scene/having a firearm in my possession, & checking out what might have been a neighborhood "disturbance" - whilst being perfectly innococous. = firearm in presence & I was cuffed, arrested & charged.

"Been brought up on sedition charges recently?"

Nope. Only "illegal possesion of firearms" & "obstruction of a peace officer."[/I] Only cost me $2K to get toplea to a 2nd degree misdomeanor charge of "obstruction." & that for merely walking up the hill to my neighbors' house to see what aid I could render ....

"The police beat or torture you lately?"

Nope. I bent to their will so I would not be subjected to what they'd wished to do - slapping my legs with a nightstick for the inquirey of "what, if anything I'm being charged with."

Ergo. There's a point where resistance, at the time, will get you nowhere but beaten.

No, we aren't screwed - quite yet.

But, Golgo-13, perhaps you haven't seen it - either from the LEO perspective, or from those who have.

I wuz a cop & saw some things that would turn your blood cold, & I have been on the receiving end which would do both.

PM-me & we could talk, or you can sit in your tower, never to hear what actually goes on.
 
HBK,

I never knew my paternal Grandfather as he died in 1939. I remember my father telling me he used to think the same things way back when. If the US can stay true (even halfway) to what the founders envisioned we will not go down. Too many of us still believe in the ideals that set America apart to begin with. That will not change. No need to despair.
 
Which America do you want

What country's history do you want to return to? The America that so many romanticize as more moral, ideal and filled with "self-made" people legally abused far more people than the nation today. You complain about the choice of candidates -- but you can vote, unlike most of the population in the 1800s, simply by virtue of birth. You complain about morality when the hypocrisy of past generations is behind today's normlessness. You complain about minorities who don't want to integrate today without realizing you are repeating TO A WORD complaints about immigrants dating 100 to 150 years ago. You complain that NAMBLA's speech rights are a sign of moral decadence when back in the the "good old moral south" a century or so ago we had thousands of lynchings promoted by the KKK, whose activities (NOT JUST SPEECH) were protected by government in many areas.

I think that justice is more alive today than in most of the nation's history. I may not agree with some of the infringements on our rights, but I don't idealize a past where so many people weren't even considered human.
 
OMG

oh geez, I agree with Cool Hand Luke :)


The sky isn't falling. The country is not going down the toilet. Not everthing is perfect, nor has it ever been.
 
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