are you a traditionalist or do you like technology?

[Mr. 16 gauge]

the counterpoint is that "primitive" seasons came about on the premise that hunting season can be opened earlier for a select group of folks using less capable weapons -- which ostensibly results in a smaller "harvest". Human nature being what it is, inlines came about as an "end run" around the rules. So there are folks who are a bit bugged that the inline crowd gamed the rules.

I sense a bit of superiority from the inline crowd -- not on this thread, but in the field -- based upon the idea that their guns are "better". My personal experience has been that few of these folks have ever owned a traditional gun, and few of those that have knew how to manage them. I am sure I am not the only flintlock shooter who has ever been annoyed by the "That there flintlock goes off what, half the time? And even when it does, it's not like those old guns could hit anything!" inline ignorance at the local range. Combined with the "300 yards" type silliness, it's enough to turn a fellow into a retro grouch.

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!......somebody finally freakin' gets it! A modern "muzzleloader using smokeless powder and a jacketed bullet IS NOT PRIMATIVE!!!!! It's just a modern rifle without a brass case, and has NO business in a primative season, even if it loads from the muzzle! It's like the morons that I have to deal with duck hunting who buy hevishot and shoot at ducks at 100+ yards away, because they don't want "the other guy" to get any.:banghead:

 

[Harve Curry]

The High Road all the way right?.

 

[arcticap]

Everyone has a different definition of what's modern and traditional.
For me, the crossover line is marked by a rifled barrel since the effective range of a smoothbore is about 75 yards. So rifled gun barrels are all pretty much equal.
A cheap inline usually shoots worse than an expensive traditional gun because so many traditional guns have double target triggers and very long, expensive barrels. It's hard to argue that a precision rifled & air gauged long gun barrel somehow resembles primitive or traditional technology.
Civil War sniper rifles like the Whitworth represented cutting edge barrel and projectile technology that is still superior to modern inlines.
If that Civil War level of technology isn't accepted as being traditional, then that brings us back to the rifled barrel verses the smoothbore.
In my sincere opinion, once the rifled barrel is accepted as being traditional, then every rifled barrel needs to be considered as being relatively equal & traditional.
That measurement of "practical equality" is part of what America is premised upon. One person might drive a Volkswagon and another a Cadillac, but it's nearly universal that every American drives a car that takes them from point A to point B while sharing the same public road system. If the cars weren't considered to be equal then they wouldn't be allowed to share the same road because it would be unsafe to do so.
Since the universal ownership of relatively equal cars is one of those hallmarks of American society, then so is the use of various types of muzzleloaders since mostly everyone uses one of the relatively equal rifled barrels.
I really appreciate the opportunity to explain my personal perspective about the unnecessary rift between modern and traditional muzzle loader hunting.
Whether it's all defined as modern or traditional doesn't matter, they're all basically the same & equivalent.
IMO the use of modern rifled barrels makes the proverbial glass of water to be more than 1/2 full.

 

[mykeal]

Articap - I don't know if the purpose of this thread was to re-debate the inline rifle in muzzleloading season thing again or not, but even if it was I did not intend to join that discussion as I'm of the opinion it matters little what we say about it. However, I felt it worthwhile to comment on your metaphor.

First of all, the definition of what's traditional is entirely arbitrary; one could pick any change (not necessarily even advancement) in technology to represent the passage from 'traditional' to 'modern' and thus provoke debate. I won't quibble with your rifled barrel milestone, but it is perhaps a bit convenient to progression of your argument.

Second, the automobile metaphor just doesn't work. Yes, both a VW and a Cadillac are capable of performing the basic transportation mode on the highway. So are the BMW Isetta and a fully loaded triple bottom Peterbuilt diesel tractor-trailer rig, but any equality between them is clearly illusory. Both are allowed to share the same road, safety notwithstanding. True equality requires that you would choose either, without prejudice, to perform your basic transportation function, but that's not what would happen in any rational decision process.

So, is every rifled barrel truly, or even relatively, equal, using that metaphor? I think not.

Defining the 'traditional' firearm requires establishing a collection of physical characteristics, and perhaps even some performance specifications. I've not yet come up with what I feel is an adequate definition, and I feel that whatever I settle on will generate significant debate, not because it can't be done but because what the real debate is about is something entirely different: who gets to hunt with what during this special season.

 

[John Wayne]

While I do stand on the traditional side of the argument, I will say that not allowing rifled barrels would greatly increase the number of game animals needlessly wounded or lost due to poor accuracy.

 

[mykeal]

Picking a nit: I do not agree with the use of the adverb, "greatly'. That's an insult, unintended I'm sure, to bp hunters. It suggests that we would not take the time or trouble to determine the accuracy of our guns at various ranges and just keep banging away at any range regardless of how accurate they were. I do not believe that's how we, as a group, hunt. I believe that there are a much higher percentage of bp hunters who properly prepare for the hunt and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner than the general population of centerfire hunters, and if we were restricted to smoothbore long guns we (at least the vast majority of us) would learn how accurate they were and use them accordingly. There would certainly be a few bozos who would not, and thus a few needlessly wounded animals, but absolutely not a 'greatly increased' number. You owe us an apology.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I started shooting BP in the 60s. Pop was a Civil War Centennial re enactor and I caught the bug at first Manassas.

As for the new fangled stuff, I prefer sidehammer cap rifles for hunting, 1858 replicas for pistol fun, and will someday have a SxS ML shotgun.

Just because....

As for what the next shooter uses, I care not one whit as long as they're safe.....

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

"Primitive":

–adjective
1. being the first or earliest of the kind or in existence, esp. in an early age of the world: primitive forms of life.
2. early in the history of the world or of humankind.
3. characteristic of early ages or of an early state of human development: primitive toolmaking.
4. Anthropology. of or pertaining to a preliterate or tribal people having cultural or physical similarities with their early ancestors: no longer in technical use.
5. unaffected or little affected by civilizing influences; uncivilized; savage: primitive passions.
6. being in its earliest period; early: the primitive phase of the history of a town.
7. old-fashioned: primitive ideas and habits.
8. simple; unsophisticated: a primitive farm implement.
9. crude; unrefined: primitive living conditions.
10. Linguistics.
a. of or pertaining to a form from which a word or other linguistic form is derived; not derivative; original or radical.
b. of or pertaining to a protolanguage.
c. of or pertaining to a linguistic prime.
11. primary, as distinguished from secondary.
12. Biology.
a. rudimentary; primordial.
b. noting species, varieties, etc., only slightly evolved from early antecedent types.
c. of early formation and temporary, as a part that subsequently disappears.
–noun
13. someone or something primitive.
14. Fine Arts.
a. an artist of a preliterate culture.
b. a naive or unschooled artist.
c. an artist belonging to the early stage in the development of a style.
d. a work of art by a primitive artist.
15. Mathematics.
a. a geometric or algebraic form or expression from which another is derived.
b. a function of which the derivative is a given function.
16. Linguistics. the form from which a given word or other linguistic form has been derived, by either morphological or historical processes, as take in undertake.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME (n. and adj.) (< MF primitif) < L prīmitīvus first of its kind. See prime, -itive]



—Related forms
prim·i·tive·ly, adverb
prim·i·tive·ness, prim·i·tiv·i·ty, noun

—Synonyms 1, 2. prehistoric, primal, primary, primordial, original, aboriginal, antediluvian, pristine. See prime.

I'll accept Matt's thesis up to a point - but see definition #1 (presumably the preferred definition) -referencing "of it's kind". So when used in reference to a "gun", not a "weapon", then the earliest "gun" of it's kind would be a 14th century "gonne", not a 17th-18th century musket, let alone a 19th century Davy Crockett muzzleloading rifle. So it depends upon whether the season is a "primitive weapon" season or a "primitive gun" season, given the relative definition of "primitive".

But when using other acceptable definitions (more absolutist, in terms of the history of mankind's and civilization's evolution) of "primitive", then Matt is correct - should be spears, atlatl's, or perhaps very primitive self-bows.

So, bottom line, as is usually the case, the answer is, "it depends", but it would appear that even under the more restrictive, relative to the tool in questin, definition #1, a rifled gun is not "primitive".

Therefore, the solution is to (a) either call the season "traditional" instead of "primitive", or (b) limit everyone to 14th century technology "gonnes":


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Firearms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_warfare#China

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070530173724AAI84Gp

You must also present the wildlife department with a video of your home lab where you mixed up the sulphur, saltpeter, and charcoal.

And I certainly don't see why you cannot use a crossbow during this primitive season, as I believe crossbows predated guns.

 

[alsaqr]

Inline muzzleloaders have been around since percussion ignition was invented. They were just not popular.

 

[John Wayne]

Picking a nit: I do not agree with the use of the adverb, "greatly'. That's an insult, unintended I'm sure, to bp hunters. It suggests that we would not take the time or trouble to determine the accuracy of our guns at various ranges and just keep banging away at any range regardless of how accurate they were. I do not believe that's how we, as a group, hunt. I believe that there are a much higher percentage of bp hunters who properly prepare for the hunt and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner than the general population of centerfire hunters, and if we were restricted to smoothbore long guns we (at least the vast majority of us) would learn how accurate they were and use them accordingly. There would certainly be a few bozos who would not, and thus a few needlessly wounded animals, but absolutely not a 'greatly increased' number. You owe us an apology.

I am myself a blackpowder hunter. I shoot a sidelock percussion .50 rifle with conical bullets and iron sights.

I am not suggesting smoothbore hunters are less responsible, I am stating a fact that smoothbore rifles are less accurate than rifled ones. Those who willingly hunt with smoothbores are likely to know their limitations.

My point was that if you restrict hunting seasons to only smoothbores with traditional ignition systems, lots of people who formerly shot and were proficient with modern in-lines will be forced to use smoothbores and will do so with a lesser degree of accuracy and as a result, wound more animals or make less clean kills.

 

[mykeal]

My point was that if you restrict hunting seasons to only smoothbores with traditional ignition systems, lots of people who formerly shot and were proficient with modern in-lines will be forced to use smoothbores and will do so with a lesser degree of accuracy and as a result, wound more animals or make less clean kills.

We are apparently in violent agreement about one thing: 'greatly increased' is not appropriate.

I still have a problem with 'lots of people who formerly shot and were proficient with modern in-lines". I teach the muzzleloading section of the national hunter safety education course and work as a volunteer range safety officer and instructor during our club's deer hunt sight-in period. I do not find the vast majority of in-line users to be the kind of people who would simply go back out in the woods and shoot at the same ranges with smoothbores as they would with rifled guns. They're not stupid - they know smoothbores are not as accurate at long ranges, and they would learn the characteristics of their guns and use them appropriately. I stand by my previous statements:

I believe that there are a much higher percentage of bp hunters who properly prepare for the hunt and conduct themselves in an appropriate manner than the general population of centerfire hunters, and if we were restricted to smoothbore long guns we (at least the vast majority of us) would learn how accurate they were and use them accordingly. There would certainly be a few bozos who would not, and thus a few needlessly wounded animals, but absolutely not a 'greatly increased' number. You owe us an apology.

 

[kBob]

Excuse my ignorance, but I was under the impression that a well developed smooth bore load and patch was as accurate as the common Fostor type slugs in an actual smooth bore shot gun.

As this was the onlything allowed or available firing a single solid shot in some areas of the US for many years I got to wonder how many deer were wounded and lost to all those smoothbore shotguns.

Of course I bristle at calling a rifled arm that shoots plastic saboted jacketed hollow point bulles and like as not has a scope a "shotgun"

WHen primative seasons were started "traditional" BP guns were pretty much all there were.

I think the modern designs and modern scopes go against the spirit of the original idea of BP seasons.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Maybe we should reword "primitive" hunting season to "obsolete black powder firearm" season?

OK maybe not, as I probably just opened a whole new can of wording worms.



LD

 

[theotherwaldo]

I like 'em all. They're fun to shoot, fun to compare, and challenging to shoot well.

Components count, though. A matchlock with a precision-rifled barrel will outperform the newest inline, if that inline is burdened with a poorly-made barrel.

I may never hunt again with a muzzle-loader. Heck, I may never hunt again, period! It's a pain to hunt in Texas.

I'm still going to keep collecting and shooting the broadest selection of firearms that I possibly can. It's all good.

 

[mikecronin63]

I own guns of various types, but I've found that my favorite is a traditional .50 percussion, a T/C White Mountain Carbine. I like it for two reasons. The first is just because I like it and enjoy fiddling around with loads and so on. The second is because there is a separate muzzle loader season. I hunt on public land and the woods are pretty crowded during the regular firearms season.

Some of the new ideas used in inlines are pretty ingenious. My only problem with them is simply that if they make them too efficient and too easy to use, the woods will be just as crowded during the muzzle loading season as they are in the regular season.

My state allows anyone over 65 to use a crossbow. I may have to look into that if modern inlines become too popular.

 

[Harve Curry]

How about a rechargable battery operated ignition? Solar panel built into the stock to keep it charged up. A shaped charge chamber withe the charge fitting it with a glow plug at the rear center of it. Very efficient and no lock time.

 

[madcratebuilder]

As for what the next shooter uses, I care not one whit as long as they're safe.....

I can live with that.

With the outcome of the election, gun owners, shooters, hunters, collectors need to stand together and protect our 2nd amendment rights. Save the bickering for around the camp fire.

 

[SE-Okla.shooter]

I have too many (according to my wife) traditional flintlocks and percussion rifles and pistols. I do have and like a 50 cal. scout pistol and a 54 cal. scout rifle. Since they have a exposed hammer I consider them traditional.

 

[.38 Special]

As for what the next shooter uses, I care not one whit as long as they're safe.....

Agreed. I don't "get" it, but that's not terribly important.

 

[gotgcoalman]

#55
John Wayne
Senior Member



Join Date: 12-11-07
Posts: 104 While I do stand on the traditional side of the argument, I will say that not allowing rifled barrels would greatly increase the number of game animals needlessly wounded or lost due to poor accuracy.



My groups @ 100 yards on a paper target are as good (with open/iron sights) as a modern rifle.
Good enough group to fell a deer (1 shot 1 kill/no wounding)

Rifle Kentucky .45 smothebore

charge 80gr hogsons 777 fffg

projectile 150gr ball

 

[nw_hunter]

Thats funny right there

Guess I don't really understand inlines. When I want a modern gun I buy a modern gun. Inlines have always sort of struck me as buying an F150 but insisting it be equipped with a Model A engine.(Quote)


I'm with you 38special, and I really like the F150 thing Hope you don't mind if I steal it!

 

[txcookie]

I really dont know I own a cheap traditions inline (which currently need a new trigger) and I own a CVA Hawkins (which I honestly love)

I want a modern ML rifle as here where I live I cant use modern rifles and I like using a scoped rifle every now and again! I would never call a modern ML a Traditional rifle I see them as A WAY AROUND ML season. Still it would be very nice to be able to smoke when I see them with my TC Encore just need a new barrel first.

 

[Ratdog68]

Inlines don't interest me...

When I wanna "for convenience" firearm.... I like "modern". When I want to belch smoke out the muzzle... I wanna traditional firearm. I likes percussion... but, haven't fired a flintlock yet, so, I offer no opinion of them.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Traditional here both flint and percussion... it's regular rifle season here in Kansas but I was hunting with my 1841 Mississippi in .54 caliber on Thursday and got a nice fat doe.
The wife shoots an 1817 style fintlock and we all shoot primitive/traditional archery as well so guess it runs in the family...

 

[scrat]

Inline muzzleloaders have been around since percussion ignition was invented. They were just not popular

This is true there was a picture of an inline musket that was made in the 1800's. it has been around it just was not popular. as modern day steel technology advanced so did the inline. It was brought back and has been very very popular.

Now as far as shooting. I am a shooter i am not prejudice towards on make or type of muzzleloader. I will shoot both inline and traditional. funny thing is before the in line you were not really considered a traditionalist unless you shot flintlock. Makes you think uh. Now a gun that not really for is the electronic ignition guns. that seems to take the art out of the gun.

Heck if the inline was redesigned in the late 1800's to 1900's using shot gun primers. We would all think they are traditional style guns. Its just something that was over looked due to the rapid expansion of the cartridge gun. Then re looked at as more nations and states started to ban cartridge guns and made black powder as the acceptance. Think of it this way in the UK where our fellow shooters can only go to a range and shoot black powder, those guns have to be good an up to the technology that we can provide for them. The inline is a modern day gun that shoots black powder. Hopefully there will not come a day when that is all we have to shoot.