Are You and Your Gun . . .
- Thread starter TaxPhd
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braindead0
Member
Watch the local LEO's training some time ;-)
TheMariner
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2003
- Messages
- 154
Good? at what? Hitting paper.. sure, out to about 40 yards or so.. the most I've practice I've done with it so far. How do I know... the holes man, the holes..
I'm good because Jim Cirillo said so. 
The gun (a Glock 26) is good because I say so. After ~10k rounds and 3 years of everyday carry, I guess I'd realize by now if it weren't going to work for me.
pax
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do anything better than you.
I can shoot a partridge
With a single cartridge.
I can get a sparrow
With a bow and arrow.
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do anything better than you. – Irving Berlin (lyrics from Annie Get Your Gun)
The gun (a Glock 26) is good because I say so. After ~10k rounds and 3 years of everyday carry, I guess I'd realize by now if it weren't going to work for me.
pax
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do anything better than you.
I can shoot a partridge
With a single cartridge.
I can get a sparrow
With a bow and arrow.
Anything you can do, I can do better.
I can do anything better than you. – Irving Berlin (lyrics from Annie Get Your Gun)
lee n. field
Member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2002
- Messages
- 4,318
just as an aside, what was the, i guess you'd call it, "testing protocol" behind this target? (x rounds strong hand, x rounds weak, rounds 2 hands, timed at what distances, etc.).
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I guess I'm a decent shot because of the many year's
of formal and informal practice that I've
had; and because I shoot QUALITY handguns
that are kept in emaculate condition?
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
of formal and informal practice that I've
had; and because I shoot QUALITY handguns
that are kept in emaculate condition?
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Lee N Field --
Description of course of fire at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23371
pax
Description of course of fire at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23371
pax
BerettaNut92
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Messages
- 9,723
No, it's good because it says Elite on it..... I'm Elite....
Mike Irwin
Member
Because the bowling pins and steel plates fall down when I shoot them?
Is this a trick question?
Is this a trick question?
Penforhire
Member
I like to think I'm good enough with the steel, if not the tactics, because the times I've had to roll out of bed past midnight to check out trouble --
1) I haven't shot myself or anything I didn't want to. Okay, so the only time I DID shoot was to scare off coyotes when I was in the boonies.
2) I have demonstrated properly handling of my weapons in a sleepy stupor without having to consciously dwell on how to handle them. Confirmed by my 'sleeping partner.'
3) There's no way on this Earth I'm going to miss at the range of typical homeowner confrontation with my entire magazine (which is likely to be emptied at any threat worthy of using any lethal force). You'll just have to take my word on this one, or sneak over after midnight to find out.
1) I haven't shot myself or anything I didn't want to. Okay, so the only time I DID shoot was to scare off coyotes when I was in the boonies.
2) I have demonstrated properly handling of my weapons in a sleepy stupor without having to consciously dwell on how to handle them. Confirmed by my 'sleeping partner.'
3) There's no way on this Earth I'm going to miss at the range of typical homeowner confrontation with my entire magazine (which is likely to be emptied at any threat worthy of using any lethal force). You'll just have to take my word on this one, or sneak over after midnight to find out.
El Tejon
Member
I am no good. That is why I train continually.
He who knows everything, knows nothing. The master is only a devoted student. [gong sounds]
He who knows everything, knows nothing. The master is only a devoted student. [gong sounds]
Chris Rhines
Member
I'm still learning.
- Chris
- Chris
No, it's not a trick question.
If you compete, be it bullseye, IPSC, IDPA, GSSF, etc., you probably have a pretty good idea of how good you are. There are standards, classifications, rankings that can serve to give you a pretty good idea of your ability.
If you compete, you probably also have a pretty good idea of how good your gun is.
If you are shooting a Lorcin (that jammed all the time) and languishing in D class, you would have to be pretty delusional to convince yourself that you and your gun were actually pretty good.
If you have survived a gunfight, are you and your gun any good? Maybe, maybe not. But the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful information.
An example. A lot of people have very high opinions of Sig handguns (not picking on Sigs - just the first name that popped into my head that doesn't have a large presence in competitions). Why? If we are discussing quality, I would agree. If we are discussing "shootability" or "combat worthiness" (or any other such description, take your pick), why are they good? Is it because such and such police agency has adopted them? Is it because you know of someone that used one in a shootout, and they survived?
In various posts both here and on TFL, I have defined the essence (I have been taken to task for the use of the word, but it works for me) of combat or competition shooting to be:
"The ability to place multiple shots on multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, using a sufficiently powerful gun."
Your own definitions may vary, but I wouldn't imagine that they would vary a whole lot. And if they do, that's OK.
Competition allows us to quantitatively assess our abilities, and the suitability of our guns. If you are competing and you are not winning (or placing at a relatively high level), either your skills or your gun or both are lacking. You could say something like, "Them games is all rigged. I could beat any of them hotshot IPSC'rs in a real shootout." Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't. They only way to tell would be to have a real shootout with them, and that isn't likely to happen. While competitions of all types have their limitations, the do provide a repeatable and quantifiable method for assessing skills. If you don't like competitions, what are the alternatives?
When we don't compete, it is easy to fool ourselves into thinking that our skills are greater than they are. We can conveniently forget about our misses and malfunctions, and tell "fish stories" about how good we really are. Competition does not afford us that luxury. The results are what they are, printed for all to see.
I see competitions as the best way to determine our skill level. If you disagree, let's hear the alternative. And, AFAIK, competition is the only repeatable, controlled forum, where participants can choose their guns (as opposed to being issued like for police and military), and that has a large enough sample size to have any statistical validity when answering the question about whether or not a gun is good.
I am not trying to gore anyone's sacred cow here. I see competition as the best arena for answering these questions, but I am sure that it is not the only one.
What say you???
Scott
If you compete, be it bullseye, IPSC, IDPA, GSSF, etc., you probably have a pretty good idea of how good you are. There are standards, classifications, rankings that can serve to give you a pretty good idea of your ability.
If you compete, you probably also have a pretty good idea of how good your gun is.
If you are shooting a Lorcin (that jammed all the time) and languishing in D class, you would have to be pretty delusional to convince yourself that you and your gun were actually pretty good.
If you have survived a gunfight, are you and your gun any good? Maybe, maybe not. But the sample size is too small to draw any meaningful information.
An example. A lot of people have very high opinions of Sig handguns (not picking on Sigs - just the first name that popped into my head that doesn't have a large presence in competitions). Why? If we are discussing quality, I would agree. If we are discussing "shootability" or "combat worthiness" (or any other such description, take your pick), why are they good? Is it because such and such police agency has adopted them? Is it because you know of someone that used one in a shootout, and they survived?
In various posts both here and on TFL, I have defined the essence (I have been taken to task for the use of the word, but it works for me) of combat or competition shooting to be:
"The ability to place multiple shots on multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, using a sufficiently powerful gun."
Your own definitions may vary, but I wouldn't imagine that they would vary a whole lot. And if they do, that's OK.
Competition allows us to quantitatively assess our abilities, and the suitability of our guns. If you are competing and you are not winning (or placing at a relatively high level), either your skills or your gun or both are lacking. You could say something like, "Them games is all rigged. I could beat any of them hotshot IPSC'rs in a real shootout." Maybe you could, maybe you couldn't. They only way to tell would be to have a real shootout with them, and that isn't likely to happen. While competitions of all types have their limitations, the do provide a repeatable and quantifiable method for assessing skills. If you don't like competitions, what are the alternatives?
When we don't compete, it is easy to fool ourselves into thinking that our skills are greater than they are. We can conveniently forget about our misses and malfunctions, and tell "fish stories" about how good we really are. Competition does not afford us that luxury. The results are what they are, printed for all to see.
I see competitions as the best way to determine our skill level. If you disagree, let's hear the alternative. And, AFAIK, competition is the only repeatable, controlled forum, where participants can choose their guns (as opposed to being issued like for police and military), and that has a large enough sample size to have any statistical validity when answering the question about whether or not a gun is good.
I am not trying to gore anyone's sacred cow here. I see competition as the best arena for answering these questions, but I am sure that it is not the only one.
What say you???
Scott
Taking self defense shooting classes (combat shooting) is competitive to some extent. You can get an idea of how well you shoot compared to your classmates. You also have an instructor (a good one, I assume) to give you an idea if you are being effective. You may well get some training in a combat class that would be useful that you may not get in some of the shooting games.
I'm not knocking shooting games. I just don't think you should rely on any one type of training. That goes for SD shooting classes as well as games. Get a variety of shooting experience.
When it comes down to it, in a real SD situation, can you adjust to something that may not be like shooting games (or shooting class) you have gotten so good at? There will be real people. Will you adjust or will you choke? You hope you never have to find out.
Rich
I'm not knocking shooting games. I just don't think you should rely on any one type of training. That goes for SD shooting classes as well as games. Get a variety of shooting experience.
When it comes down to it, in a real SD situation, can you adjust to something that may not be like shooting games (or shooting class) you have gotten so good at? There will be real people. Will you adjust or will you choke? You hope you never have to find out.
Rich
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cool45auto
Member
I don't think I'm good. I know my gun is good. I hope we'll meet on common ground soon.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
Any gun I keep and use has gotta be OK .. as a gun .... in particular if it becomes a carry piece.
As for me ... as long as I feel that the gun is out performing me then I know I still have work to do. I think it will ever be thus.
As for me ... as long as I feel that the gun is out performing me then I know I still have work to do.
I think it will ever be thus.Crimper-D
Member
Well, I AIN'T Perfect...
But I'm GAINING on it!
The guns are along for the ride, long as I keep em' fed, they are doing their part. - The rest is up to me
But I'm GAINING on it!
The guns are along for the ride, long as I keep em' fed, they are doing their part. - The rest is up to me
Love my N-frames. I began to become quite familiar and competent with them at around 14 years of age, once I turned 16 I was driving out to the hills to go shooting on a regular basis. Tweety birds and golf ball sized targets were in serious danger out to distances of 25 yards. On more than one occasion I hit the odd 50 yard distant ground squirrel or two.
I just put SO many rounds through that old 38/44 Outdoorsman that it was rediculous. All that trigger time with that old N-frame translates perfectly over to my other N-frames like my 4 inch model 27-2 and my 4 inch 29-3.
Darned things point naturally as all heck for me now after so many years of shooting those wonderful guns.
When I start shooting 3 gun, I'm almost considering using a 625 45ACP wheel gun as my sidearm just to get some more practical training with it. I've got a ParaOrdinance P14 Limited and it's a pretty decent gun with good accuracy but for utter reliability I reall prefer my wheel guns and I'm actually better with them.
Long ago I sold my HK USP 45 V1 after finding I just couldn't shoot it for anything, I was slower on target presenting from a holster compared to my abilities with my P14. I also was more accurate and faster with my P14 because I wasn't constantly fighting that gun like I always seemed to be doing with the USP.
My 1911 while better for me than that USP, is actually playing catch up to my abilities with a good N-frame.
Isn't there some old words of wisdom out there concerning the mastering of a handgun? Something along the lines of it is time better spent trying to learn one or two styles/designs really well and reap the rewards of all that muscle memory. As opposed to owning multiple styles/designs and never quite developing that 2nd nature "extension of your hand" natural pointing feel.
I just put SO many rounds through that old 38/44 Outdoorsman that it was rediculous. All that trigger time with that old N-frame translates perfectly over to my other N-frames like my 4 inch model 27-2 and my 4 inch 29-3.
Darned things point naturally as all heck for me now after so many years of shooting those wonderful guns.
When I start shooting 3 gun, I'm almost considering using a 625 45ACP wheel gun as my sidearm just to get some more practical training with it. I've got a ParaOrdinance P14 Limited and it's a pretty decent gun with good accuracy but for utter reliability I reall prefer my wheel guns and I'm actually better with them.
Long ago I sold my HK USP 45 V1 after finding I just couldn't shoot it for anything, I was slower on target presenting from a holster compared to my abilities with my P14. I also was more accurate and faster with my P14 because I wasn't constantly fighting that gun like I always seemed to be doing with the USP.
My 1911 while better for me than that USP, is actually playing catch up to my abilities with a good N-frame.
Isn't there some old words of wisdom out there concerning the mastering of a handgun? Something along the lines of it is time better spent trying to learn one or two styles/designs really well and reap the rewards of all that muscle memory. As opposed to owning multiple styles/designs and never quite developing that 2nd nature "extension of your hand" natural pointing feel.
Ryder
Member
I'm one of a kind?
I don't compete with anyone except my self. I don't see shooting as being anything like rocket science. Everyone has their own natural ability level, I must be fairly well blessed in that regard. For me it's more like riding a bike, it's not something I am going to forget how to do. Especially after more than 30 years of doing it.
I'm only good as long as I am not disappointed with my results. I'll let ya know when that happens.
Actually it did kind of happen once about two years ago. Thought I had really lost my touch. Hitting all over the place! Packed the gun up and went home in disgust and shame. Found the loose rear sight while cleaning the gun later that day. :banghead:
^^^ That's the only target I've ever went through the hassle of scanning to the web (don't own a camera). Two inch group, rapid fire rate, with a max load (might be able to compress a couple tenths more powder into the case, but I wouldn't do it). First shot went 5" high as usual for that gun. Never knew brass could eject so hard!
I don't compete with anyone except my self. I don't see shooting as being anything like rocket science. Everyone has their own natural ability level, I must be fairly well blessed in that regard. For me it's more like riding a bike, it's not something I am going to forget how to do. Especially after more than 30 years of doing it.
I'm only good as long as I am not disappointed with my results. I'll let ya know when that happens.
Actually it did kind of happen once about two years ago. Thought I had really lost my touch. Hitting all over the place! Packed the gun up and went home in disgust and shame.
Found the loose rear sight while cleaning the gun later that day. :banghead:^^^ That's the only target I've ever went through the hassle of scanning to the web (don't own a camera). Two inch group, rapid fire rate, with a max load (might be able to compress a couple tenths more powder into the case, but I wouldn't do it). First shot went 5" high as usual for that gun. Never knew brass could eject so hard!
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faustulus
Member
All of my guns are better than me, so I keep trying to catch them.
Smoke
Member
My guns shoot better than me.
I train continually and when I start getting cocky I return to school each year I am reminded I still have a lot to learn.
Compared to some LEO's I am the best in Texas. (LEO's are not a good judge of shooting prowness)
I train continually and when I start getting cocky I return to school each year I am reminded I still have a lot to learn.
Compared to some LEO's I am the best in Texas. (LEO's are not a good judge of shooting prowness)
Tropical Z
Member
Im good with my Hi-Point because its sweet watching people get mad when their S&RUGSITAUGLST acts up and i shoot happily on!
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