Aren't 5.56 and .223 the same round?

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This is all bad info except the 52k CUP for the .223.

Brass varies by manufacturer, yes but LC is actually some of the lightest. PMC, FC and Win/W-W .223 and 5.56 brass are identical within their brand. Lapua .223 brass is the thickest and heaviest out there.

Good post. Been weighing the brass for my accuracy loads for over 40 years. US made 5.56mm military brass is not thicker than US made .223 brass. Some Brit military brass is thick.

Got to brass weights.

http://ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml
 
They are different rounds. You can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chambered weapon, but you should NOT shoot 5.56 out of a .223 chambered weapon. Basically the 5.56 has the ability to over pressure the chamber of a .223.
 
They are different rounds. You can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 chambered weapon, but you should NOT shoot 5.56 out of a .223 chambered weapon. Basically the 5.56 has the ability to over pressure the chamber of a .223.
It's isn't hardly the chamber that I would be worrying about, especially in a bolt action rifle, but rather the brass.

As far as the differences between the 5.56 loadings over the years, it has varied. There are different mil loads sending a different bullet at different velocities and the mil-spec has changed over the years with the energy and thus pressures increasing as time has gone on as the mil has tried to turn the 5.56 into something that it was not originally designed to be.

As to the difference between the various pressure specs...

CUP cannot be directly converted to any other measure of pressure because it describes area under a pressure curve, NOT peak pressure. The original SAAMI spec for the .223 was in CUP (52k) but the current spec is in PSI (55k).

CIP and NATO use MPa to define pressure which CAN be converted directly to PSI.

Additionally, SAAMI measures pressure on the wall of the case while CIP and NATO use a measurement taken on the neck of the cartridge. Different measurement points lead to measurements that are not interchangeable and it is likely that the CIP method is more forgiving.

While it is true that many manufacturers are not cutting an exact SAAMI chamber, I would not take it on faith that NO ONE does because that would be relying on faith in something that I know to be false. Just within ARs, there are manufacturers that sell rifles with .223, 5.56 and Wylde marked barrels. If they were cutting them all the same, why go to the trouble of specifying three different things?
 
While it is true that many manufacturers are not cutting an exact SAAMI chamber, I would not take it on faith that NO ONE does because that would be relying on faith in something that I know to be false. Just within ARs, there are manufacturers that sell rifles with .223, 5.56 and Wylde marked barrels. If they were cutting them all the same, why go to the trouble of specifying three different things?

I think some manufactures mark hybrid chambers as .223s for PC reasons. The Remington R-15 is cut with a hybrid chamber, but is marked .223. Remington is known for 'hunting' guns, and probably didn't want their rifles to have any kind of 'military' flavor.

I also think that a rifle marked 5.56 is likely to have a true 5.56 chamber, where those marked .223 might have anything from a .223 to 5.56. Only the maker can tell you for sure, but I bet that most .223 marked guns have hybrid chambers for liability reasons. This is probably not true for match guns or custom varmint rigs.

As a side note, when Remington is contacted about their chambers they say their R15s have .223 chambers and your should only fire .223s in them. When Bushmaster is contacted about the R-15s (they actually make them), they will tell you about the hybrid chamber and say both 5.56 and .223 are safe in them.

To add to the confusion, outfits selling mail order ammo often use the calibers interchangeably. In the Cheaper than Dirt catalogue I received yesterday, they repeatedly had .223 in the text describing boxes of ammo marked 5.56. No wonder most AR makers want the margin of safety a hybrid chamber offers, even if they market and mark the gun as a .223.
 
Yet DPMS, same umbrella company and Rem and Bushy, sells rifles chambered in either .223 or 5.56. Again, I would base nothing on assumption. If the rifle is marked .223 I wouldn't shoot 5.56 in it without either confirming with the manufacturer that it has some type of hybrid chamber (Savage uses one in their .223 rifles) or having the chamber cast and checking dimensions from that.
 
It's all an assumption one way or another. You either assume that the rifle is as marked or you assume the rifle is safe for 5.56. Neither is a guarantee, regardless of what is stamped on the barrel or written in a manual. It's up to you what you want to load and shoot from there.
 
It's all an assumption one way or another. You either assume that the rifle is as marked or you assume the rifle is safe for 5.56. Neither is a guarantee, regardless of what is stamped on the barrel or written in a manual. It's up to you what you want to load and shoot from there.

Oh, you can go further. You can buy a chamber testing gauge here:

http://www.m-guns.com/tool_new.php?product=gage

And check all your 223/5.56 barrels to see if they have a "true" 5.56 NATO chamber. And drive yourself nuts.

Why? Well, some, like Daniel Defense, will have an unequivocal true 5.56 chamber and you can run your hot M193/M855 all day long without worries. That's good.

But others, like Bushmaster, will test as not being quite a true 5.56 NATO chamber.... BUT, the barrel is marked for 5.56 NATO and the manufacturer says clearly, without waffling, that their barrels are chambered for 5.56 NATO and safe to use with that ammo. Then you read on another discussion forum that Bushmaster doesn't have NATO chambers, then you read in one or two threads here from someone who apparently called Bushmaster and was told expressly that they have a hybrid chamber that is safe to use with 5.56 NATO spec ammo. And you go nuts. I've done that with Armalite too. A Spike's Tactical barrel tests as being probably, but not unequivocally, a 5.56.... the only barrels I've checked with that gauge that were, without a doubt, 5.56 NATO chambers, were Daniel Defense and a CMMG. Yet Bushmaster and Armalite tell us (I have an email from Armalite on this) that it's fine to use 5.56 NATO ammo in their rifles.

Can you tell I've done a little digging on this issue? Where do I finally come out? Well, at the moment, I'm inclined to think it's OK to use 5.56 NATO ammo in any rifle where the maker says it's OK and I don't see definite pressure signs on fired cases. If I see pressure signs I stop using that ammo. I have seen pressure signs firing some UAE-made M193 ammo in an Armalite, for instance. Beyond that I pretty much throw up my hands. Running NATO ammo in a tight chamber is definitely bad, but it's mostly a wear and reliability issue, with the possibility of primers popping, more than a sudden catastrophic failure issue. It could cause a bolt to shear some lugs, but that can happen anyway, and is a major nuisance but not normally a safety issue if you stop shooting once you discover the condition.
 
Well flat tires can happen too, but that's no reason to use cheap retreads. Just because people do it all the time doesn't make it a real good idea.
 
i've fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of US military 5.56mm ammo through my .223 rifles with no sign of high pressure. It is a SAAMI myth that US military 5.56mm is loaded to a higher pressure than .223 ammo. M193 ball ammo is loaded to 52,000 psi. M855 ball is loaded to a pressure of 55,000 psi.

http://www.kmike.com/Ammo/tm 43-0001-27.pdf

Strange thing here. For about 25 years SAAMI never told us about the alleged dangers of firing 5.56mm military ammo in .223 chambers. When lots of 5.56mm military ammo hit the market, SAAMI put out their warning. They threw that lie in there about all military brass being thicker too.

There are about a dozen different .223 and 5.56mm chambers. A gunsmith tells me that no maker he is aware of uses a SAAMI spec chamber. NEF used to re-grind their reamers. Some of their .223 guns have huge chambers and some are tight. Here are the specs for several different 5.56mm and .223 chambers


http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
 
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The following is an article that I took off the internet that explains this in detail. I would err on the side of safety versus push a weapon beyond it's designed capabilities....but that's just my opinion.
__________________________________________________
.223 Remington vs. 5.56 NATO: What You Don’t Know Could Hurt You
by Richard Johnson
02/15/2011

Is firing a 5.56 NATO cartridge in your .223 Remington chambered AR15 dangerous? Or do Internet forum-ninjas and ammunition companies selling you commercial ammo instead of surplus overstate the dangers? Believe it or not, a real danger exists, and some gun owners who think they are doing the right thing may not be safe.

The Cartridges

The .223 Remington and 5.56x45 NATO cartridges are very similar, and externally appear the same. But there are some differences that lie beneath the surface.

The 5.56 case has thicker walls to handle higher pressures, meaning the interior volume of the case is smaller than that of a .223. This will alter the loading data used when reloading 5.56 brass to .223 specs.

Some 5.56 loads have a slightly longer overall length than commercial .223 loads.

The Chambers

The significant difference between the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO lies in the rifles, rather than the cartridges themselves. Both the .223 and 5.56 rounds will chamber in rifles designed for either cartridge, but the critical component, leade, will be different in each rifle.

The leade is the area of the barrel in front of the chamber prior to where the rifling begins. This is where the loaded bullet is located when a cartridge is chambered. The leade is frequently called the “throat.”

On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle.

A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure.

The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure.

How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.”

ATK, the parent company of ammunition manufacturers Federal Cartridge Company and Speer, published a bulletin entitled “The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges.” In this bulletin, ATK stated using 5.56 ammo in a .223 rifle could result in “…primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.”

However, the danger may be lower than SAAMI or ATK suggest. In Technical Note #74 from ArmaLite, the company states “millions of rounds of NATO ammunition have been fired safely in Eagle Arms and ArmaLite’s® SAAMI chambers over the past 22 years,” and they have not had any catastrophic failures.

According to ArmaLite:

“Occasionally a non-standard round (of generally imported) ammunition will fit too tightly in the leade, and resistance to early bullet movement can cause elevated chamber pressures. These pressures are revealed by overly flattened primers or by powder stains around the primer that reveal leaking gasses.”

What Do You Have?

So, if you own a rifle chambered for the .223 for 5.56, do you know for which caliber it is really chambered?

Many match rifles are chambered in .223 Remington (SAAMI specs) for tighter tolerances, and theoretically better accuracy.

Many of the AR-15’s currently sold on the market are made for the 5.56 NATO cartridge. If you own one of these, you should be fine with any .223 or 5.56 ammunition.

However, ATK dropped this bomb in the bulletin on the .223/5.56:

“It is our understanding that commercially available AR15’s and M16’s – although some are stamped 5.56 Rem on the receiver – are manufactured with .223 chambers.”

So, even if your AR is stamped 5.56, is it really? Check your owner’s manual or call the company directly and make sure you get an answer you feel comfortable with.

As if the confusion regarding the .223 vs 5.56 chambers wasn’t enough, there is a third possibility in the mix, that is being used by at least one major manufacturer. The .223 Wylde chamber is a modified SAAMI-spec .223 chamber that allows for the safe use of 5.56 NATO rounds, but maintains tighter tolerances for better accuracy.

Yeah, yeah… What’s the bottom line?

Here’s the bottom line. If you want to follow the safest possible course, always shoot .223 Remington ammunition. The .223 Rem cartridge will safely shoot in any rifle chambered for the .223 or 5.56.

If you want to shoot 5.56 NATO rounds, make sure you have a rifle designed for the 5.56 military cartridge. Shooting 5.56 in a normal .223 Rem rifle can result in bad things.

________________________________________
Richard Johnson is the co-owner of GunsForSale.com.
 
The 5.56 case has thicker walls to handle higher pressures, meaning the interior volume of the case is smaller than that of a .223.

Debunked: Weigh some US military cases and find out for yourself.
 
Untill I read this thread, Ive burned NATO 5.56 through bolt rifles, Mini14's and such, as well as .233 through my Chinese Ak's and many Ar's.....~~LOL!!~~

What was suposed to happen? :D
 
So I'm clear here, the problem is that 5.56 ammo has a longer OAL which is a problem when it is long enough to touch the lands?

Having loaded for a few different .223/5.56 rifles, I have never seen one where any magazine loaded round has been able to touch the lands. It's fairly simple to check with a the Hornady gauge. The problem today is that the lands are cut so far out that you can't get a light weight bullet out to them, not the other way. I would love to see a current production rifle where a 5.56 round is out into the lands.
 
A police officer I know said to only shoot the caliber that your rifle is chambered for. .223 or 5.56. He said 5.56 can shoot both, but you shouldn't. Not really sure why. And didn't really want to get into a debate with him.
 
Even with the differences, has anyone documented any problems where it caused more than a blown out primer?
 
So I'm clear here, the problem is that 5.56 ammo has a longer OAL which is a problem when it is long enough to touch the lands?
The external dimensions of the cartridges are essentially identical, and completely identical in the critical dimensions. The OAL of the 5.56 round is limited by the magazine of the rifles chambered for it to right at 2.260" the same as the SAAMI max OAL for the .223. At that length, a bullet would have to be pretty blunt, like a roundnose which no one makes to my knowledge, to get to the lands.
 
But multiple sources say the issue is that the 5.56 rounds are a jam fit into the lands, causing a pressure spike. If the .223 and 5.56 are the same in dimensions and use bullets with a similar ogive, why would all this worry about a jam fit be an issue at all? There seems to be a lot of incorrect info out there.
 
The problem is not a jam fit, it is the difference in pressure between a chamber with a longer throat and one with a shorter throat.

If you load a cartridge to produce x pressure in a chamber with a long throat it is going to produce x+ pressure in a chamber with a shorter throat.

As many have noted, it may or may not cause a problem in your particular weapon, but it is a fact that the chamber specifications will have an effect on pressure for a given round.

Put another way, true milspec ammo is loaded to produce a given performance in a standard 5.56 chamber, any difference in that chamber will
will effect the actual pressure you will encounter on firing.

It is my understanding that many manufacturers altered their .223 chamber prints when this became a known problem.
 
My T/C Encore pistol chambered for .223 Rem would not chamber Win Q3131 or any of my handloads at first. It must have had a significantly shallower throat/chamber. Had to reseat bullets well short of 2.26 OAL on all my handloads.

M
 
^^^ Your chamber was not even to SAAMI .223 spec then. Excessively short throat. It happens some times. I'd have either sent it back to T/C to get it fixed or taken it to a competent 'smith and had them re-ream the chamber to the correct dimensions.
 
First of all it is always important to know the chamber dimensions of your rifle. It may have been made to a particular spec but in my experience they are all slightly different, most of the time it does not matter, sometimes it does.

My personal experience is this. I have never seen a .223 blown up from shooting a 5.56 round. I have personally fired 5.56 from all of my .223's including my contenders and encores. I have never seen a problem.

It is also my experience that true 5.56 is pretty hot by comparison to factory .223 rounds.

The intent of the changes in 5.56 are to make it a battle capable round that can be fired from a full auto rifle without moving the bullets (hence the crimp). The .223 loses a lot of velocity from a shorter barrel so they may also be hotter to get them out of a 16 inch barrel with adequate fps to make them behave as they were designed to.

Your mileage may vary so proceed with caution, but if anyone here has ever seen a problem in any .223 shooting 5.56 I would sure like to hear it.
 
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