Argentine 1911s

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Reddog1

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Anyone here have any knowledge of these 1911 clones out of Argentine?
Ballester Molina, 45 ACP @ approx $250 or a Sistema Colt, 45 ACP for
approx $300, offered by JLD Enterprises, thru Gruffers.com.
Are they worth the $$$ and are they C&R legal?
thanks for the help :) :)

Jim
 
I don't think JLD actually has any more Systemas to sell.
The prices on Cruffler.com would be outstanding but the site has not been updated in three years. A Systema 27 Colt clone is more like $400 now. I don't know about Ballester Molina, they were never in as much demand to start with.

But what do I know?
Call them up.
 
The BM aren't really clones. They're almost CLONE, with only some parts interchanging. Pretty good guns, from what I can tell, but you can't do much upgrading. Even grips are different.

The Systemas are good guns, if in good shape. Built to 50's Colt standards on Colt equipment, from good steel. Generally considered a good "Colt" back when Colts were considered very good.

Both are C&R. Finding a Systema may be a problem.
 
I owned a Ballester Molina once. As .45s go, I'd say it was a fine pistol. You might actually still be able to find a Ballester for $250. They've never had the same popularity as a Sistema, because they won't 100% interchange with a Colt Govt model like the Sistema will.

But for the price, I'd recommend a Ballester. You won't find anything of comparable quality in a .45. The stuff cheaper is usually not very well made. The Ballesters were at least issued as military firearms once. Also, the barrel, bushing, magazine..and a couple of other parts I can't remember...WILL interchange with a Colt 1911. Buy a Ballester rubber hand grip for it though...you'll find that a lot better.
 
The Ballester Molina's have much more in common with the Star Model P's then the 1911. The only real difference between a Model P and a BM is that the extractor on the P is external and the BM follows the 1911 type, although they won't interchange.
 
Concur. If you can find a Sistema for a good price, jump on it. I like mine.

Mike
 
The above is correct. The Ballester's are not 'clones' and several parts will not interchange.

The Sistema's are excellent pistols if you can find one, with the only drawback being the sights. Expect to pay $400 and more likely much higher for a good condition Sistema. There are a few rollmarks that will demand a premium (Navy - Marina de Guerra or Marina Argentina, C.F.S. - Consejo Federal Seguridad, or the Air Force - Aeronautica Argentina).

A Sistema should have matching serial numbers on the frame, slide, and barrel. If you get one with a matching magazine it's a bonus but don't expect it.

For a good brief on the Sistema's go to http://www.1911og.org/forum/showthread.php?t=144

Here's a few of mine:
Sistema.jpg
 
Cacique, real informative link. Noticed my d.o.b. for my Sistema was 1947.
I guess the story I heard about Argentine steel being inferior, is just that: a story. Had no idea that they had matching magazines...Thanks..
hvp1eb.gif
 
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I have two Argentine Colts, both pretty good shooters. The newer one is blued, very worn, but mechanically excellent (sear was replaced by a gunsmith I know). The JLD was re-finished, an okay parkerizing job, and shot well but had a mysterious binding problem which 1911Tuner helped me to analyze and correct. Apparently it had been "repaired" by tightening up the slide to frame fit. Well this caused a binding between the inside of the slide and the flange on the recoil spring guide rod. I was able to file it down carefully and ease this problem. I have attached a picture of it.

My recommendation is, if you can get one in good shape at a reasonable price, get it.

attachment.php
 
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I guess the story I heard about Argentine steel being inferior
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. Sometimes I've thought yes, and other times no.

My pet theory on it now is that yes, the steel is slightly softer than an American brand might be. But when a buddy and I weighed an Argentine Sistema against a Colt 1911, we found out the Sistema weighed a few ounces more....so maybe the steel on the Sistema is slightly thicker. Making it equally durable.

Like I say...just a theory.
 
I don't know that much about them however my friend's brother has a BM and is very satisfied with it. If you have ever read G. Gordon Liddy's book "The Monkey Handlers" his main character uses a BM. Of course according to G. Gordon the weapon was made from the armor from the German pocket battleship Graff Spee.
 
Re: Graf Spee...

They used to claim that about the Sistemas, too. But apparently its just another urban myth.

I've been told that it wouldn't really matter all that much, anyhow, as metal used for heavy armor isn't necessarily metal appropriate for handguns, and when they used the metal in a handgun, it would have to be re-heat treated, etc. Anything unique about the Graf Spee's metal HARDNESS would be lost.
 
It might just be another urban legend, but I have read that the Argies bought Swedish steel, always highly regarded, for Systema manufacture. Unfortunately, I no longer have a connection with a metallurgy lab or I would have mine Rockwelled for the edification of the board.
 
argy 1911A1

I got lucky with a Argy that I bought from a guy. Mis-matched barrel but everything else #'s matched.
A friend of mine told me he had a barrel and would give it to me as it was in his parts pile.
Lo and behold, the barrel was a match for my Argy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:what:
How lucky can you get?:D
 
MM, interesting Mexican style grips on the gun. I've also heard the Swedish steel bit in the surplus guns special magazines G&A puts out so I doubt the steel is inferior, if anything it is equal or superior to other Colt 1911 patters of the era.

I for one do not really believe the Graf Spree story but who knows?

I like these guns but as the prices are around the same price as RIA and SA guns I have not bought one. I passed a BM at $259 recently as the grip screws and the part the thread in to the frame on we thrashed and the gunsmith had jury rigged some phillips screws on to it to fix it.
 
I got one from Cruffler a few years back, and when it arrived, I was so impressed that I immediately ordered a second one, wish I had ordered more. Both pistols are in excellent condition and great shooters. It's my primary carry 1911 of the the 6 1911s I own (2 Colts, 2 SAs and the the two Sistemas). The were $299. cheap at twice that price.
 
You guys just sicken me with your damned Sistemas. I caught wind of the Sistema flood a few months too late, and I want an Aeronautica so badly... I hate all of you.:cuss:
 
Don't be a hater. ;)

Besides, one will show up for sale eventually, or there will be another influx. Patience, grasshopper...

Mike, Sistema Owner. ;)
 
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