otomik
Member
the Turkish government denies the Armenian Genocide, I wouldn't buy a German gun either if they had the same attitude about the Holocaust that the Turkish government has about the armenian genocide.BevrFevr said:
Armalite's new pistol line: They want input!
- Thread starter Grayrider
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Grayrider
Member
5.7 would be neat, but it is too long for the platform. The 45 platform will go out to the length of a 10mm. Isn't the 5.7 longer than that?
I hope you guys don't mind but I would really prefer if we not wander into the Turkey/politics issue. They asked me to solicit feedback on the gun design and I am really just after that. I understand there are strong emotions about the region as I did my graduate work studying such subjects, but for the purposes of this thread I am just after comments on the pistol and its features. I would consider it a personal favor if we could keep the topic on the guns.
Thanks in advance!
GR
I hope you guys don't mind but I would really prefer if we not wander into the Turkey/politics issue. They asked me to solicit feedback on the gun design and I am really just after that. I understand there are strong emotions about the region as I did my graduate work studying such subjects, but for the purposes of this thread I am just after comments on the pistol and its features. I would consider it a personal favor if we could keep the topic on the guns.
Thanks in advance!
GR
If that's really the case would they be willing to get some samples into the hands of guys who shoot CZ pattern pistols in competition? If they want an honest to gosh test drive, send one to our local IPSC club and I'll have three Production Masters who currently shoot CZ 75 and 85 pistols wring it out. When we are finished I'll get some hot rock Production shooters from along the front range in Colorado to give it a whirl. These folks will tell it like it is as far as ergonomics, shootability, funtionality, and reliability.
BobCat
Member
Grayrider,
1) What is the slide stop issue you mentioned in your first post? I've broken two slide stops in myCZ75B, which is my daily carry. I inspect the slide stop for cracks regularly, and keep a spare. If this is an established issue with CZ-design pistols, and they can fix it, I will buy one.
2) A lot of us like Parkerized (phosphated) guns, rather than blued, chromed, or painted. The polymer paint on my CZ has stood up very, very well, but when it gets ratty enough I will phosphate it.
3) A lot of people like to carry their CZ in condition 1. Keeping the "conventional" safety available, instead of making all the pistols "decocker only" was a wise move on CZ's part; I hope these new folks do the same.
4) The firing pin retainer plate is a good idea. People like to take things apart to clean them; having the firing pin and spring retained only by a roll pin seems cheesy, although it works fine/reliably.
5) I agree with whoever said to delete the mag brake; nice to have drop-free.
Thanks for your work on this project.
Regards,
Andrew
1) What is the slide stop issue you mentioned in your first post? I've broken two slide stops in myCZ75B, which is my daily carry. I inspect the slide stop for cracks regularly, and keep a spare. If this is an established issue with CZ-design pistols, and they can fix it, I will buy one.
2) A lot of us like Parkerized (phosphated) guns, rather than blued, chromed, or painted. The polymer paint on my CZ has stood up very, very well, but when it gets ratty enough I will phosphate it.
3) A lot of people like to carry their CZ in condition 1. Keeping the "conventional" safety available, instead of making all the pistols "decocker only" was a wise move on CZ's part; I hope these new folks do the same.
4) The firing pin retainer plate is a good idea. People like to take things apart to clean them; having the firing pin and spring retained only by a roll pin seems cheesy, although it works fine/reliably.
5) I agree with whoever said to delete the mag brake; nice to have drop-free.
Thanks for your work on this project.
Regards,
Andrew
Grayrider
Member
BobCat,
CZ pattern guns with high round counts are prone to breaking slide stops. However, I have noticed that is most often reported by competition shooters who reload so one can read into that what one wants. CZ does include extra stops with the IPSC ST and now the Tactical Sport.
Ankeny,
That is a great idea! I will pass that along. Armalite is interested in the competition market so that would make absolute sense.
GR
CZ pattern guns with high round counts are prone to breaking slide stops. However, I have noticed that is most often reported by competition shooters who reload so one can read into that what one wants. CZ does include extra stops with the IPSC ST and now the Tactical Sport.
Ankeny,
That is a great idea! I will pass that along. Armalite is interested in the competition market so that would make absolute sense.
GR
atblis
Member
If it's basically a Witness with good CS
I'll buy one.
I'll buy one.
George Hill
Member
At SHOT I spent a lot of time looking at the Sarsilmaz guns. They are some how cheaper feeling than other CZ knock offs. Some are okay, with decent finishes... such as the camo finished one which for some reason was my favorite. They had Gold colored plating on some, really ugly "engraving" on others... nothing that really impressed me.
Grayrider
Member
I hear what you are saying. Armalite says they will hold them to a higher standard. The Sarsilmaz facilities are said to be capable of it. The concept of a forged pistol alone is appealing to me, but lets hope they can keep the quality of the finished product high.
GR
GR
atblis
Member
Eurotrash pistols
that's what they look like. They do have the potential to be good guns.
Any possibility of a 10mm model?
that's what they look like. They do have the potential to be good guns.
Any possibility of a 10mm model?
Grayrider
Member
Don't worry Atblis, that was on my personal list of suggestions.
Don't know how likely that will be, but it never hurts to ask.
GR
Don't know how likely that will be, but it never hurts to ask.
GR
Ohen Cepel
Member
A 10mm version would be great!
However, I think the biggest hurdle for them (which I have already mentioned) is to convince people to buy it rather than the original. Price will help, and maybe some extras (spare mags always help).
However, I think the biggest hurdle for them (which I have already mentioned) is to convince people to buy it rather than the original. Price will help, and maybe some extras (spare mags always help).
otomik
Member
I think the design should be modernized a bit more, like the Sphinx AT-3000, very clean look with full dustcover that has an integral rail. The Kel-Tec manages to feel pretty solid and I think that is because it's just high quality metals CNCed, though like the Sphinx, solid can be a bit geometric. You need a polymer frame that looks better than Tanfoglio's, I love the look of the Slovakian Grand Power K100's polymer frame. Notice the Spinx also went with simpler SIG-style locking rather than the classic CZ-75 type.
Ambidextrous safety and drop-free mags are an modernization we've seen in the CZ-85, maybe you should think about that design and incorporate other modernizations (if I pushed down further on the safety and it decocked my pistol, that would be a simple convenience added that wouldn't change the classic design much at all).
Ambidextrous safety and drop-free mags are an modernization we've seen in the CZ-85, maybe you should think about that design and incorporate other modernizations (if I pushed down further on the safety and it decocked my pistol, that would be a simple convenience added that wouldn't change the classic design much at all).
grayrider-
some more suggestions:
inches!!! not millimeters.
- a pistol w/ a barrel x-mm's long is useless information to me.
caliber designations, not velocity figures (in metric, no less!).
- they cannot possibly really think my 150 grain handloads travel the same velocity as a 180 grain factory load just because it was shot from their gun.
capacity... more is better. my next 6 planned handgun purchases are planned around magazine capacity - not much more than that and reliability reputation.
price: an expensive new-to-the-market pistol will not be purchased by me... but if it is cheap enough, i will buy one just to see.
some more suggestions:
inches!!! not millimeters.
- a pistol w/ a barrel x-mm's long is useless information to me.
caliber designations, not velocity figures (in metric, no less!).
- they cannot possibly really think my 150 grain handloads travel the same velocity as a 180 grain factory load just because it was shot from their gun.
capacity... more is better. my next 6 planned handgun purchases are planned around magazine capacity - not much more than that and reliability reputation.
price: an expensive new-to-the-market pistol will not be purchased by me... but if it is cheap enough, i will buy one just to see.
GunnySkox
Member
dakotasin said:
Start Menu -> Programs -> Accessories -> Calculator
Barrel length in millimeters / 25.4 = barrel length in inches.
Or just divide the given number by 25, it's close enough.
~GnSx
lol!
see what i mean? have to break out a calculator to see if it will fit in the safe. no good.
however, i always divided by 26 - didn't really know (or care) that 25 was a little closer.
and as long as we're here, grams is useless to me, too. ounces i can handle. pounds are fine... but, now you're gonna have me break out a calculator to see how big and heavy a gun is... nah, won't do it.
see what i mean? have to break out a calculator to see if it will fit in the safe. no good.
however, i always divided by 26 - didn't really know (or care) that 25 was a little closer.
and as long as we're here, grams is useless to me, too. ounces i can handle. pounds are fine... but, now you're gonna have me break out a calculator to see how big and heavy a gun is... nah, won't do it.
atblis
Member
Inches would be good.
I am sure Armalite will have inches on their webpage.
I am sure Armalite will have inches on their webpage.
Grayrider
Member
Not to wander too far off topic, but a handy way to convert is to go to google and type (for example) "1000 grams in ounces" in the search engine. This will give you the ounce weight (in this case of a CZ-75). This works with all sorts of measurements.
GR
GR
Grayrider: Per your request.
If offered in all-steel and hard-chromed from the factory, given the right price I would try it. High-cap is a must! Here are my thoughts on calibers and (# of rounds): 9X19 (20), .40S&W (16) or .45ACP (14). If they have fewer rounds than that, Glock and Springfield already put them away, and at competitive prices. The great difference for me would be "all steel". I don't care for the muzzle break on the "professional" model. It just looks goofy! Time will tell.
Edited to add: Dang, those "standard" sights are BUTT-UGLY! WOW!!! Could they be any taller?! The target sight is very nice, a la Kimber target sight. Lordy--change the sights!
Better yet, take the "Professional Model" and lose the muzzle break. I LIKE that heavier frame (again, all steel).
Doc2005
If offered in all-steel and hard-chromed from the factory, given the right price I would try it. High-cap is a must! Here are my thoughts on calibers and (# of rounds): 9X19 (20), .40S&W (16) or .45ACP (14). If they have fewer rounds than that, Glock and Springfield already put them away, and at competitive prices. The great difference for me would be "all steel". I don't care for the muzzle break on the "professional" model. It just looks goofy! Time will tell.
Edited to add: Dang, those "standard" sights are BUTT-UGLY! WOW!!! Could they be any taller?! The target sight is very nice, a la Kimber target sight. Lordy--change the sights!
Better yet, take the "Professional Model" and lose the muzzle break. I LIKE that heavier frame (again, all steel).
Doc2005
Grayrider
Member
Doc,
Thanks for the input! I did pass along the higher capacity suggestion along with my input. EAA recently moved their Tanfoglio imports to "large frame" model giving the 9mm and 40 the capacities of the 38 Super and 10mm respectively (18 and 15 rounds). I would think Sarsilmaz could do that as well. One can stuff an extra round in buy using Arredondo followers, but they don't lock the slide back. I suspect some tweaking could get the mags to 19 and 16 rounds reliably from the factory.
GR
Thanks for the input! I did pass along the higher capacity suggestion along with my input. EAA recently moved their Tanfoglio imports to "large frame" model giving the 9mm and 40 the capacities of the 38 Super and 10mm respectively (18 and 15 rounds). I would think Sarsilmaz could do that as well. One can stuff an extra round in buy using Arredondo followers, but they don't lock the slide back. I suspect some tweaking could get the mags to 19 and 16 rounds reliably from the factory.
GR
Hawk
Member
CZ has a broad selection, good prices and enjoys a good reputation. Others have pointed out that 1911 clones have a pretty nice market niche all on their own.
What I'm wondering is how much of a 1911 clone market would have developed had Colt offered a wide selection of 1911s with numerous options which worked well and sold for 400.00. There was a big gaping hole in the market begging for a 1911 with bells and whistles at a reasonable price.
Clones typically thrive where some real deficiency exists in the "original". CZ hasn't exposed any weaknesses. A clone that exists strictly for price point is already on the market.
I hope Armalite does well but I don't envy whoever gets put in charge of marketing that thing. It seems to be an answer to a question nobody asked.
What I'm wondering is how much of a 1911 clone market would have developed had Colt offered a wide selection of 1911s with numerous options which worked well and sold for 400.00. There was a big gaping hole in the market begging for a 1911 with bells and whistles at a reasonable price.
Clones typically thrive where some real deficiency exists in the "original". CZ hasn't exposed any weaknesses. A clone that exists strictly for price point is already on the market.
I hope Armalite does well but I don't envy whoever gets put in charge of marketing that thing. It seems to be an answer to a question nobody asked.
Marshall
Member
CZ 75's sell for $398.00 around here, how much more of a price drop is needed? Unless the clones are going to sell for $295.00, at the highest, I see no point to them.
atblis
Member
I'd have to agree
CZ75Bs were $379.99 around me (I think prices are a little higher now). Witnesses were a bit less. Using the Armalite name will trick some people into buying, but the average highroader will probably continue to buy Witnesses and CZs unless they sell something different/better, or have lower prices.
Where do they want to be in the market?
They could easily put some more effort into them and have a better gun than EAA; tighter slide to frame fit, better sights (that don't fly off), Adjustable trigger.
A 10mm longslide would be interesting (package it with a 40SW barrel maybe?).
CZ75Bs were $379.99 around me (I think prices are a little higher now). Witnesses were a bit less. Using the Armalite name will trick some people into buying, but the average highroader will probably continue to buy Witnesses and CZs unless they sell something different/better, or have lower prices.
Where do they want to be in the market?
They could easily put some more effort into them and have a better gun than EAA; tighter slide to frame fit, better sights (that don't fly off), Adjustable trigger.
A 10mm longslide would be interesting (package it with a 40SW barrel maybe?).
otomik
Member
I knew others must have negative impressions of turkey but this is a little off base because Turkey has a separation between church and state unlike many other muslim majority nations. In as much as kemalism is the driving principal so is secularism as one of his reforms.Whatsit said:
You're right on the money when it comes to chicom though, and it's worse than buying from just about any other commie nation because the chinese military is integrated into the business of making small arms. the chinese military does a lot of weird stuff like run some farms and hotels for soldiers, very odd and inefficient.
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