Armed bank robbery, shot fired. Appropriate action?

[t3rmin]

I would have thought this was an unlikely scenario, especially in my small town. But there was an armed bank robbery yesterday about four blocks from my house. It wasn't my bank, but it could have been. I wasn't there, but I could have been.

Information is slowly trickling out, but it appears a masked, armed man entered the bank around closing time, fired a warning shot into the ceiling, and escaped with some loot.

What do you do if you're a customer with a CCW in the bank?

My first instinct is: BG is not only brandishing a deadly weapon in the commission of a felony, but has demonstrated willingness (intent even?) to use deadly force by discharging the weapon. At this point everyone in the building is probably in fear for our lives. If feasible, it's time to draw and fire immediately to stop the threat.

Right or wrong?

Does it depend on the type and direction of the threats from the BG? For instance, if he's only directly threatened the employees, not the customers, would that come in to play?

What if he was brandishing the gun, but hadn't fired it? It's still a threat of deadly force. But you're not the police and you're not the bank -- do you just try to lay low?

 

[jlbraun]

Draw and fire. Try not to hit anyone.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

IF... I was presented with a shot I knew I could make and take him down with 1 shot...I'd take it...but the last thing you want to get involved in is a full blown gunfight in building full of people.

This is exactly why I DEMAND match accuracy from my carry ammo...yeah sure, I know most gunfights happen fast and at close range...but not all of them...and I want EVERY advantage I can get.

Its an iffy situation though...lots of people around. Sometimes its better to just mind your own business.

 

[MiddleAgedKen]

Draw and fire. Try not to hit anyone.

The second sentence in particular is good advice. Every time I think about a scenario like this (bank, mall, etc.), just about the first thing I think of is Rule Four.

 

[Cosmoline]

It depends on the circumstances. Believe it or not many if not most bank robberies take place with no gunfire and nothing more than a note brandished. You can be next to one and never know it happened.

If the yahoo is shooting, whether you respond is a tactical question. Clearly your life and the lives of others are in imminent peril. But you should not automatically draw. Wait for an opportunity to get behind cover or shoot the individual from behind. Do not try to make it a "fair fight" since you stand a fair chance of losing. If he's already brandished declared his intent and fired you also do not have to shout a warning. Just shoot, right in the back of the head if need be. He's already made his choice. That said, you need to be careful about shooting at him as he's running off since the danger may no longer be legally "imminent."

 

[Biker]

Sure he's alone? No tailgunner(s)? Is he wearing body armor? How do you know?

If his intention was to kill folks, I doubt he'd fire a warning shot.

Go with your gut, but use your head.

Biker

 

[t3rmin]

The second sentence in particular is good advice. Every time I think about a scenario like this (bank, mall, etc.), just about the first thing I think of is Rule Four.

Me too.

 

[doorman]

Keep in mind, in Texas anyway, you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. If you fire several vollies and one goes through a wall or some glass and you injure/maime or kill an innocent bystander you would more than likely be prosecuted. Most of us are not trained for a high stress encounter and it is difficult to say "I would do this if this occured".

Last week I was involved in a head on collision by a guy in a red pickup truck who was traveling in the wrong direction on a one-way street. He hit me the guy in the lane next to me and the car behind me. The car behind me stopped him but he put his vehicle in reverse and hit the car behind me twice more before takeing off again in the wrong direction. It turns out he had been involved in a robbery and the police were after him. I considered pulling the CCW to try and stop him but did not because the police were hot on his trail plus all the people who were now standing in the roadway. I spoke the the cops who were taking statements. Yes they did catch this guy. I asked if I had pulled and fired if I would be justified. The response was since he deliberately hit us he was in effect using his vehicle as a weapon but it turned out that no body was injured and the guy was caught also unharmed.
Anyway, this is something that an individual would have to decide as the events are unfolding and hopefully it works out for the best.

Everyone be safe.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Draw and fire. Try not to hit anyone.

I get your point...but trying is not good enough.

Don't hit an innocent.

 

[t3rmin]

If the yahoo is shooting, whether you respond is a tactical question. Clearly your life and the lives of others are in imminent peril. But you should not automatically draw. Wait for an opportunity to get behind cover or shoot the individual from behind. Do not try to make it a "fair fight" since you stand a fair chance of losing. If he's already brandished declared his intent and fired you also do not have to shout a warning. Just shoot, right in the back of the head if need be. He's already made his choice. That said, you need to be careful about shooting at him as he's running off since the danger may no longer be legally "imminent."

Agreed. I probably wouldn't draw if I was up front with a teller, unless he was severely distracted or something. But if I was in back, perhaps behind the check-writing island or whatnot... And this would definitely not be the time to try yelling instructions first.

So I think I'm getting the vibe that if he hadn't fired, it'd probably be best to mind my own business? I'm inclined to agree, depending on his behavior. Your average bank robber probably won't be executing everyone just for the heck of it on his way out.

If he was a drug-crazed lunatic waving that gun around, I think that would be a factor.

Maybe best to bide your time in the absence of craziness or shots fired. Even if it turns into a hostage standoff or something you may have a better chance for a clean draw and shoot later on?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Maybe best to bide your time. Even if it turns into a hostage standoff or something you may have a better chance for a clean draw and shoot later on?

VERY wise words indeed.

 

[ZeSpectre]

This is also a perfect example of where another important rule would come into play.

Before you play your hand (unholster and open up) be damned sure that the badguy is alone and even after the badguy is down keep checking for other threats.

Badguys are like cockroaches. If you see one you MUST assume that there are more around someplace!

 

[jlbraun]

but trying is not good enough.

Don't hit an innocent.

"Try your best" is all you can do - no guarantees.

Waiting to get a 100% no-risk shot is how previous CCWers died or were paralyzed.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Thats an open ended argument my friend... a few CCWers have also went to prison for shooting an innocent because they didn't wait.

ABOVE ALL ELSE...Rule # 1 is...Keep your cool...that alone is a better weapon than any firearm...

 

[jlbraun]

a few CCWers have also went to prison for shooting an innocent because they didn't wait

Source?

OTOH, McKown held his fire in the Tacoma shooting because he was afraid to hit an innocent and was paralyzed.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/11/hero-in-tacoma.html

 

[Cosmoline]

a few CCWers have also went to prison for shooting an innocent because they didn't wait.

Really? The law in many states would actually add any innocents shot by those shooting in self defense to the robber's roster as something called "felony murder." Indeed if you shoot a second bad guy the surviving bad guy can be charged with his killing.

Do you know of any instance where an otherwise lawful self defense shooter was charged because he missed and hit an innocent third party?

OTOH as the above poster points out there have been armed citizens killed or injured because they were worried about hitting third parties.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

OK...you do it your way...I'll do it mine. For crying out loud...even LEO's get the boot for hitting an innocent.(usually...but not always)

I've been shot at a few times and I'm still here.

 

[Jeff White]

You have to go with what your gut tells you. But be advised that if you just stand there and draw you may escalate the situation into an unnecessary gunfight.

You need to take a few things into consideration:

1. Is the robber acting alone, or does he have backup outside or even an accomplice inside the bank who has yet to reveal himself?

2. Are there other people in the bank lobby who may be armed and contemplating the same action who might view you as an additional suspect when you draw?

3. What are the other customers and employees doing? Where are they located?

4. What will you do if the suspect starts shooting people when he sees you draw? Who is behind you? Are they in his line of fire?

5. The police are most likely on their way, responding to a silent alarm. What are your chances of being shot by the responding officers as they see you draw your weapon from outside?

I'm not certain I'd start a gunfight in a crowded lobby unless the suspect made his intent to harm someone very clear.

Cosmoline is right, most bank robberies are accomplished by passing a note to the teller. It's pretty likely that anyone who wants to do a take over robbery is not acting alone and may be getting off on the adrenalin high. That might make him a little more dangerous and unpredictable then the guy who passes a note to a teller, takes the money and calmly walks out of the door.

Not telling you what to do, just giving you some things to think about.

Jeff

Jeff

 

[retgarr]

As to not shouting instructions, I recall an incident in a mall where a CCW'er shouted at the shooter to drop his gun while the shooters back was turned. The shooter turned and shot him paralyzing him. The CCW'er would have been justified in shooting without warning.

If anyone recalls the incident I'm talking about go ahead and post the full story.

 

[t3rmin]

As to not shouting instructions, I recall an incident in a mall where a CCW'er shouted at the shooter to drop his gun while the shooters back was turned. The shooter turned and shot him paralyzing him. The CCW'er would have been justified in shooting without warning.

I think that may have been the recent Tacoma, Washington mall shooting. Also in my neck of the woods.

 

[jlbraun]

1. Is the robber acting alone, or does he have backup outside or even an accomplice inside the bank who has yet to reveal himself?

2. Are there other people in the bank lobby who may be armed and contemplating the same action who might view you as an additional suspect when you draw?

3. What are the other customers and employees doing? Where are they located?

4. What will you do if the suspect starts shooting people when he sees you draw? Who is behind you? Are they in his line of fire?

5. The police are most likely on their way, responding to a silent alarm. What are your chances of being shot by the responding officers as they see you draw your weapon from outside?

I'm not certain I'd start a gunfight in a crowded lobby unless the suspect made his intent to harm someone very clear.

Regarding #1, why don't we just give the robber what he wants all the time in case he has an accomplice?

Regarding #2, in conversations with Israeli citizens, CCWers shooting each other just doesn't happen - good people recognize one another, and only the bad guy gets shot.

Regarding #3, this is obvious.

Regarding #4, of course no one is going to draw when he's looking at you. Draw covertly.

Regarding #5, same as #2. It's easy to come up with this scenario and easy to worry about it, but it doesn't happen in real instances.

 

[t3rmin]

Keep in mind in this (real) scenario, the bad guy did, in fact, brandish and fire a gun. Not a discreet note situation. If I happen to notice a note-passing robber in the next lane, I'm probably quite happy to leave it to the cops. Although in this state it is *legal* for a citizen to detain somebody in the commission of a felony, it may not be the *wise* thing to do.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

There has been 3 bank robberies here in my area in the past few weeks...nobody has been hurt so far...nobody has been caught yet either.

Be aware...these hard times (lack of jobs, poor healthcare, etc., etc.) are causing good people to turn bad...and it will get worse.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Regarding #1, why don't we just give the robber what he wants all the time in case he has an accomplice?

Regarding #2, in conversations with Israeli citizens, CCWers shooting each other just doesn't happen - good people recognize one another, and only the bad guy gets shot.

Regarding #5, same as #2. It's easy to come up with this scenario and easy to worry about it, but it doesn't happen in real instances.

BS

 

[Jeff White]

jlbraun said;

Regarding #1, why don't we just give the robber what he wants all the time in case he has an accomplice?

As a private citizen it's not your job to protect the bank's money. Were you issued a peace officer's commission along with your CCW permit? You have no duty to act.

If you do decide to act, and he does have an accomplice, your first indication of that shouldn't be a brief flash of a red mist before your eyes as you lose consciousness and fall to the floor, the side of your head blown off from the accomplice's gunfire. Makes you just another wannabe hero who didn't quite make the cut that day.

Regarding #2, in conversations with Israeli citizens, CCWers shooting each other just doesn't happen - good people recognize one another, and only the bad guy gets shot.

Considering that there is very little CCW in Israel and most of the armed citizens are carrying long guns I can see where this isn't a problem. Then you have the difference in the two societies. You're talking about a society that's fighting an active terrorist threat.

Regarding #5, same as #2. It's easy to come up with this scenario and easy to worry about it, but it doesn't happen in real instances.

Really, it's never happened? Obviously you've never rolled up on a call where there were armed citizens present and you were unsure of who was the bad guy. In the rural area where I worked, calls involving an armed citizen holding a trespasser or burglar at gunpoint were not exactly unknown. I'm sure all of the off duty and plainclothes officers who have been shot by their fellow officers by mistake when they intervened in situations like that will take comfort in the fact that their injuries and deaths didn't happen in real instance.

Jeff