Armed courier behavior

[geegee]

I worked as a security guard for Brinks, while in college in Ottawa, Ontario during the mid '70's. It was a great job for a student-very flexible hours (they almost always needed someone at some hour of the day or night), pay was ok, and I got to meet a lot of bank tellers. The job was really pretty tedious, which unfortunately can result in people getting lax at the worst times.

Working for Brinks was considered extremely safe in Ottawa (since they had never been held up), until one of our crews had a guard murdered. Mo Prudhomme was a very friendly, young father who was killed by a shotgun blast, for no reason at all. Like most guards, he would have gladly handed over the dough, if given the chance.

There was also an incident in 1976 when there a big robbery took place in Montreal. The Brinks truck driver had a very regular habit of reading his morning paper, while parked in an alley at the rear of a bank. One morning a delivery van pulled up directly in front of the truck (while the crew was downstairs getting the morning delivery of deposits), and when the driver heard a rap on the window, he was instructed to look ahead at the van. When he did, he saw the doors swing open and a .50 cal. machine gun mounted in the van , pointed at him. Being a military veteran, he realized what that .50 could do to an armored truck, and so complied with the request to get out and wait for the rest of the crew. When they returned, the robbery took place. AFAIK, the money (around $15mm) has never been returned.

It's a job that can positively lull you to sleep at times, but you definitely have to stay alert. geegee

 

[PrudentGT]

On the topic of putting your hand on your weapon for a little added comfort, my father's old service revolver has this funny thumb-shaped wear mark on the upper front side of the left grip. I know he only drew once or twice in his career, but that wear mark tells the story of a lot of nervous moments in his lifetime.

And, while we're on the topic of armed guards (just to get everyone in a tizzy), remind me again why there are provisions for them to carry weapons when you can't use deadly force to protect property?...

 

[Mike Irwin]

I've never seen a courier for an Armored Service pick up/drop off cash at a financial institution with a side arm drawn.

I worked for Navy Federal Credit Union for 3.5 years and never did I see this.

I have, however, seen teams armed with shotguns.

And, once, many years ago, I saw the "money train" come through the DC metro station as I was waiting for the last train with some friends.

I wasn't doing too well (drunk as a skunk) so I just put my head down and started walking toward the train.

One of my friends grabbed me and said something relatively unintelligible and drunken, at which point I looked up and saw TWO guys with shotguns giving my group the skelly eyeball.

I got a lot more sober right about then.

 

[SoCalGeek]

They know how to do it over in ireland. I happened to be walking through the downtown area of a tourist city during an armored car pickup. They have people armed with Steyr AUGs up and down the street, dressed in BDUs, looking around, and generally being intimidating. It was very different from what i normally see in America, where one guy gets out of the car carrying a wonder 9 in his holster while the other guy sits in the car and looks bored.

 

[sm]

Used to assist with some armored car and security guard quals.
Some were newbies, some had experience with other companies, other states, some had some years under their belts.

Basically its what company policy dictates, in the respective state they are in. .38spl revolvers are chosen because of MOA for Armored Guards. Familiarily of weapon, sharing of ammo if things were to get bad. Every 6 months one company required revos to be inspected and cleaned by an authorized gunsmith.(nelphs) Before each shift revo was to be inspected before carry and holstered. And yes, Hand on weapon when entering/leaving/ attending ATM. Even if you were knew you were a decoy.
Some situations dictated another accompany guards with a SG. There is time even for a second man to be inside with 2nd SG.
All of the guards we dealt with HAD to also qual with PG SG, I hate PG SGs but I'd draw short straw and teach it. arrgghh

Security guards usually had more flexible choice on firearm,had to qualify, and we usually "suggested" even if qual'd with a semi, to qual with a revo...liability, they use partners revo, or if for some reason their semi is in repair they could work with a company revo.

Some interesting rules and regs.

 

[Orthonym]

I have a philosophical (ethical?) problem here!

Do not most of our govt. people, and lots of the members here, counsel us to use deadly force only in defence of our lives? Nonetheless, the laws in some states authorize only people who have valuable property to protect to go armed. Not that I object to anyone shooting an armed robber, I just see some hypocrisy here.

 

[Griff]

Orthonym, I'm not a security guard by profession or choice, so this will have to be the opinion of an interested reader. Bear with me.

While I can understand your question, it bothers me that you don't draw a line between choice and duty. Put yourself in their shoes: go walk around dressed up as a target for your small paycheck, carrying lots of what everybody wants, then split your attention between ethical issues and survival. It becomes a different story.

(Please don't see this as an attack on your person, I just think that you've missed something here)

Regards

 

[Orthonym]

Oh, yeah, Griff, I see your point!

Why should I be put into a self-defense position to protect someone else's property? And for small pay? But now we're getting into politics.

 

[c_yeager]

They arent armed to protect the bag of money. They are armed to keep from getting killed by someone who wants the bag of money. if someone comes up to me and puts a gun to my head and wants my wallet im more than willing to give it to him. BUT, if i get even a moments chance im not going to wait to see if he will be charitable enough not to kill me afterwads.

 

[Orthonym]

If someone points a piece at me and doesn't kill me then and there I figure all bets are off and I get to: Abjectly surrender; Pretend to abjectly surrender, then wait until I get the drop on HIM (even if I have to wait 20 years or so); Charge like a kamikaze at the very moment; OR ANY OR ALL OF THE ABOVE, or anything in between!

 

[Griff]

Those are all very interesting plans of action, but the context of the thread is the job. I think that the members here who have actual experience in it have illustrated the realities quite well, from a perspective that we civilians can't understand.
What you do with your time and money is your choice, they don't have that option.

 

[Autolite]

Orthonym's point is valid ...

It's a very good question. Either you can or can't use deadly force to protect property. The value or amount of property should not be a factor. Nor should who the property belongs too. Also, the guards 'chose' to be guards so they do/did have the option of not being placed in a dangerous situation. I would like to hear a legal opinion on this subject ...

 

[VaughnT]

Gentlemen, we don't carry sidearms because we are protecting currency or other liabilities. We carry because anyone attempting to take said transferables has already demonstrated a disregard for the law and their next action cannot be predicted. If they are willing to steal, there is no reason to assume that they are not willing to do murder.

And more importantly, that pistol serves very much as a talisman to make others think twice about robbery. Sure, that guy might be sixty years old and look feeble as all get out, but he just might be a hard-core shooter with war experience under his belt and reflexes like a cat. Do you really want to chance it against someone whose potential you don't know and who's armed?

As a side note: we just had one of our guys robbed and he lived. Unfortunately, the living wasn't because of anything he did right (wouldn't have been robbed if he had been on his toes), only that the bad guys didn't want to kill him. If any of a hundred variables had gone the other way (stoned, nervous, angry...), he would be dead. You cannot rely on the goodwill of a thief.

 

[PrudentGT]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread because I had an odd experience today, and wanted everyone to chime in before I take any action.

I was sitting outside Armadillo Willy's (restaurant) having lunch with a coworker, and casually glance over my shoulder and the first thing I see is a Glock in someone's hand, sort of in the low-ready position. The second thing I see is that the hand is attached to a youngish armed courier guy making a pickup from the restaurant. He holsters it as he goes in the restaurant, and then as he comes out he pulls it out *again* and tucks it between himself and the bag he's just picked up. Now my first instinct is to give the company (ACS?) a call about this -- I've seen these guys qualify in the past with revolvers and it's not pretty, so this yahoo holstering/unholstering for no apparent reason and having the muzzle point all over God's green earth seems like an accident waiting to happen. I subscribe to the idea that it stays holstered unless you're going to use it, but perhaps this courier company encourages lots of scary brandishing for some reason?

So my question is, should I give the company a call and let them know that this is going on or am I being a ninny who should just mind his own business?

 

[BluesBear]

If the courier is breaking any of the 4 rules then someone higher in the food chain needs to be made aware of it.

A good company wouldn't want any bad PR.

 

[Orthonym]

Good Point, BluesBear,

All of you good-fer-nuthin fellow two-legged predators please see my posts above in this thread.

 

[VaughnT]

By all means, report the actions you witnessed if you feel that it was overboard. It is only by being made aware of instances like this that a company can work to better their workforce.