Is this bad behavior in a gun shop

[SharkHat]

Which shop is that ErikO?

 

[ErikO]

Which shop is that ErikO?

M & M Guns and Supplies, LLC in St Peter's. Mr Medsker's a real stand-up guy.

 

[rellascout]

So unless you like going to a shop and not being able to handle what you want to buy, unless you like a business model that you know is more likely to fail you as a buyer when it comes to selection/etc., you will be disappointed/unhappy on at least some occasions when/if the new business model takes over. Therefore, it seems a safe bet to say that at some point in the future you will mourn (however slightly) the loss of traditional LGS even though you clearly don't want to admit it right now.

Maybe you're different, but the real issue here is that what a lot of people want is to feel good about using the LGS as a selection tool and then buying online or from one of the "smart small format stores" where they can get the good price that the LGS can't provide because it's also in the business of helping buyers decide what they want and what fits them as opposed to just moving guns at the lowest prices possible. They want it all.

I see a lot of rationalization about why it's a good idea for LGS to go out of business and become obsolete, why it's a good idea for "smart small format stores" to take over. The problem is that we, as gun buyers, will be giving things up when that happens and some of the things we give up will be things we will miss.

My preferred guns shop has not failed me in anyway. You are living in a fantasy land if you think that every LGS conducts business in the manner you have described. Are you actually attempting to put forth the belief that no one has ever been dissappointed with the an old format LGS? There are threads after threads illustrating the displeasure with FFL after FFL. The THR is littered with horror stories. Stop trying to speak for all gun owners. I personally do not need to always hold and handle everything I am purchasing. Maybe its a generational thing. You continue to assume that your needs are everyones needs. Why the arrogance? The way you are comfortable buying may or may not be the same as mine. I am not saying that all FFLs have to change their business model. If they can make the old one work more power to them.

I just do not want to hear them complaining that they cannot charge the inflated margins that they used to be able to charge. I also think is wrong is telling the gun community should subsidize the LGS by overpay for their products so that their neighbor can touch and feel a gun before purchasing it.

Again I am not telling you that you should not subsidize them. Again stop dancing around the question. Are you saying we should? It surely seems that way to me.

 

[BSA1]

rellascout,

You are a very tough customer by deciding how much money (notice I did not say profit) a dealer should be able to make on a gun sale. Are there any other businesses that you decide how much money they should make on a sale?

It may be my age showing but I enjoy owning a shooting a lot of different guns. A lot of the time when I walk into a gun shop I don't know what I want til I see it, handled it and lust for it. I know a lot of other shooters the same way. And gun shows are full of buyers like that. As you get older you may (probably) find your interests in guns change and Internets sales won't meet your desires.

 

[rellascout]

rellascout,

You are a very tough customer by deciding how much money (notice I did not say profit) a dealer should be able to make on a gun sale. Are there any other businesses that you decide how much money they should make on a sale?

I do not determine what amount of profit a particular business makes the market does. If I can get a Colt Gold Cup for $1050 from my Colt guy in AK and have it shipped to my FFL and transferred for $10 I have not "decided" anything but where to spend my money. In the end as a consumer I make this decision every single time I make a purchase. If someone is overpriced IMHO then I do not buy from them. They are free to drop the price or not sell it to me. That does not mean they will not sell it but if I am paying more $$$$ than I have to there better be a tangible reason or else I am subsidizing that business out of the goodness of my heart. This is a valid choice but just not one I am willing to make with the LGS I have encountered. They are not looking out for me why would I look out for them. We are not best friends we have a business relationship. This does not mean I do not refer people to the good shops I have used. I do. I recommend them all the time if I think they deserve it.

It may be my age showing but I enjoy owning a shooting a lot of different guns. A lot of the time when I walk into a gun shop I don't know what I want til I see it, handled it and lust for it. I know a lot of other shooters the same way. And gun shows are full of buyers like that. As you get older you may (probably) find your interests in guns change and Internets sales won't meet your desires.

If that is the way you purchase things have at it. I have not said that your way of hold and touching before buying is wrong I have stated that a large segment of the market has moved to a different model and that there are new FFLs taking advantage of that. I am not hear to tell anyone how they have to buy or how they have to run their business. I just do not want to hear people complaining that their LGS can't cut it in the market place anymore. My response to that is adapt or die.

I complete disagree with people like JohnKSa who seem to want to use a slippery slope red herring in order to get us to pay more than we have to for guns because he prefers the old school way to run a LGS.

Its funny because my choice in variety is what drives me to the internet. There is no way my local FFLs is every going to have the variety that I can find on the web. It has nothing to do with age. I have a diverse collection which could not have been built using only the LGS. YMMV and clearly it does.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

reallascout.. you're language comes off as abrasive, it may or may not be intended, but it seems to be a theme

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I really don't see anything abrasive with a consumer wishing to spend the money he earned in a way he sees fit. Just as he must do what his boss says in order to earn that money, the gun store must do what the consumer wants in order to earn the consumer's money. All true capitalism is an equal exchange of value for value. If both parties do not hold the transaction as having the same value, one will end up losing and the transaction should not take place. If rellascout feels $1000 is an appropriate price for a firearm and the deal feels $1050 is appropriate, they can either agree to compromise or agree to part ways. Rellascout can find a new store and the store can find a new customer. I find that to be refreshing, not abrasive.

 

[rellascout]

reallascout.. you're language comes off as abrasive, it may or may not be intended, but it seems to be a theme

If being matter of fact and stating my thoughts with conviction is abrasive call me sand paper... LOL



RellaSANDPAPERscout

 

[cyclopsshooter]

I'm not referring to his gun buying practices, but how he talks to people on THR haha, sandpaper, thats funny!

 

[CZguy]

I'm not referring to his gun buying practices, but how he talks to people on THR haha, sandpaper, thats funny!

I just re-read his post and found nothing that I would consider abrasive. Can you cite an example?

 

[gearhead]

Many of us are introverts who not only don't need that sort of interaction at a gun shop but we abhor it. I was looking at my handguns and rifles, I think I might have two that I actually held in my hand before committing to purchase them. If you gain value from the LGS experience then feel free to pay for that, as for me I will avoid that experience as much as possible.

The gun shop business model quite frankly was a monopoly for 35 years. Established by the 1968 Gun Control Act, the requirement to purchase new guns only through a dealer basically gave the FFL holder a captive customer base. The internet has adapted to efficiently sell firearms under these laws, a successful FFL holder will adapt to a world where the internet marketplace exists.

 

[JohnKSa]

My preferred guns shop has not failed me in anyway.

Your earlier quote clearly stated that the new “small smart format” shops only fulfilled your needs “most” of the time. So this quote either means your preferred gun shop is not one of the new “small smart format” shops you espouse (in which case it's odd that you are arguing that they are all we need) or it means that one of your two statements is false.

… if you think that every LGS conducts business in the manner you have described.

This is a strawman. I said no such thing. I implied no such thing. What I said was that “having several traditional LGS in an area will definitely help insure that people can look at things they're interested in buying because inventory and philosophy varies from LGS to LGS and because the traditional LGS is based, at least to some extent, on catering to the customer even if it means stocking some items that don't move well.”

That is a true statement, and it’s interesting that rather than acknowledging that fact or attempting to refute it, you chose to create a strawman and refute the strawman instead.

Are you actually attempting to put forth the belief that no one has ever been dissappointed with the an old format LGS?

I didn’t say that. What I did say was that “having several traditional LGS in an area will definitely help insure that people can look at things they're interested in buying because inventory and philosophy varies from LGS to LGS and because the traditional LGS is based, at least to some extent, on catering to the customer even if it means stocking some items that don't move well.”

That is a true statement, and it’s interesting that rather than acknowledging that fact or attempting to refute it, you chose to create a strawman and refute the strawman instead.

There are threads after threads illustrating the displeasure with FFL after FFL.

I’ve read them. I’ve even posted one or two myself. The fact that there are some (maybe even many) FFLs out there who aren’t keeping their customers happy doesn’t mean that all traditional LGS are problematic. Nor does it have any bearing on the fact that LGS do provide things that online sellers and "small smart format" shops don't.

Stop trying to speak for all gun owners.

You mean as in advocating that LGS are a failed business model and should either change or become extinct?

I’m not trying to speak for everyone, just pointing out that LGS offer things that online sellers and “small smart format” shops do not and that sooner or later gun buyers will miss those things if they become unavailable. You tacitly acknowledged this fact when you said that only “most” of what you wanted was available at the “small smart format stores” in your area.

I personally do not need to always hold and handle everything I am purchasing.

I didn’t say you did. I don’t “always” need to do that either. But sometimes I do. Sometimes you do too or you would have said that you “never need to hold and handle what I purchase” instead of saying what you did.

You continue to assume that your needs are everyones needs.

If by this you’re saying that I assume that at least some of the time people will want to look at something before purchasing it, then I think it’s safe to say that’s a common need. Your statement quoted above tacitly admits that at least some of the time even you have that need.

I am not saying that all FFLs have to change their business model.

I didn’t say you did. What I said is that if we lose the old business model we will eventually miss some of the things it provides.

By the way, although I hadn’t said it before, I will now. You said that they would have to change or that they would become extinct. Since that’s only two options (change and extinction) and since extinction is also change, it’s fair to say that you have said they will have to change. Below is the quote.

The old way is dying and if they are not willing to change they will become extinct…

Again I am not telling you that you should not subsidize them. Again stop dancing around the question. Are you saying we should?

I didn't say that you had told me to stop subsidizing them.

What I’m saying is that unless we are willing to lose the additional things that a traditional LGS provides compared to online sellers/small smart format sellers, then we should pay for those things.

A subsidy is giving money and getting nothing in return. Paying for service/intangibles is not the same thing as a subsidy.

To say that people are subsidizing LGS by paying more is like saying that people are subsidizing nice restaurants because thay have to pay more for a burger and fries there than for a burger and fries at a fast food drive-through. The fact is that if you want someone to cook your burger to order, keep your drink glass filled, etc., if you want a nice atmosphere while you eat, etc., then you will have to and should expect to pay extra for those things. That's not subsidizing the restaurant, that's paying more because extra things (service/intangibles) are being provided that aren't provided at the drive-through.

…are you proposing that we prop up business with failed business models who cannot compete in the changing free market?

What I’m saying is that it’s a business model that provides things that online sellers and “small smart format” shops do not/can not provide. I’m saying that if those things are important to people they need to understand that those things add cost to the items sold in the shop and that they need to understand that they will have to pay the cost if they want the benefit.

It’s one thing for a person to truly embrace the new model completely and I’ve got no problem with those who actually do that. That would be like a person who eats ONLY at fast food joints because it’s cheaper there. But it’s messed up when people want all the service they get at a nice restaurant but still expect to pay fast food prices and complain when they are asked to pay more.

The problem is that many people demand/expect/rely on the benefits provided by an LGS but aren’t willing to pay for them and/or denigrate the traditional LGS for having prices that aren’t "competitive". If one is going to compare prices, it’s only reasonable to do so if the comparison is limited to other businesses that espouse the same basic model. It’s totally unreasonable to expect a full service, traditional LGS to have the same prices as an online seller or to suggest that they're a failed model simply because they can't match online prices.

 

[rellascout]

Let me start of by saying what a great discussion. It enjoy an intelligent back and forth discussion on a meaningful topic. I do not take these personally. I have no issues when some disagrees with my words opinions and arguments. I hope that others feel the same way when someone disagrees with their words.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Your earlier quote clearly stated that the new “small smart format” shops only fulfilled your needs “most” of the time. So this quote either means your preferred gun shop is not one of the new “small smart format” shops you espouse (in which case it's odd that you are arguing that they are all we need) or it means that one of your two statements is false.

You make an incorrect assumption here. I stated that the "small smart format" which I will now refer to as a SSF fulfilled my needs most of the time. You used this statement to draw the conclusion that my local shop has failed in some way which is not the case at all. I buy things FTF when it is possible. If someone local to me has gun I wish to purchase or someone local wants to purchase a gun I am selling I see no need to involve any FFL. In this case the SSF did not meet my needs but in no way "failed" me.

I have also bought a total of 6 guns in the last 10+ years off the shelf. One was a NIB 870 20 Gauge, a used LNIB Dan Wesson CBOB, a NIB Bersa 380 auto, a NIB CZ P01 and a used Ruger GP100 & a LNIB Beretta 84FS. In each case price was a factor in purchasing the gun off the shelf. The CBOB was $700. The 84FS was $350. Both were purchased from Gander Mountain of all places. The Bersa & the 870 were loss leaders at a big box store. The P01 was the same price at the "small format store" as it would have been had I bought it and transferred it. The Ruger GP100 was going to be ordered but the local happened to have it so I bought it on the spot. In each of these scenarios my local SSF did not "fail" me as you suggest. Instead another vendor or my SSF met my needs at that point in time. Failure by the SSF was not part of the equation. If these deals were not available at other outlets I might or might not have simply ordered like items from my SSF but this is similar to FTF transactions which are transactions of opportunity which old format LGS may or may not have fullfilled without failure on their part.

This is a strawman. I said no such thing. I implied no such thing. What I said was that “having several traditional LGS in an area will definitely help insure that people can look at things they're interested in buying because inventory and philosophy varies from LGS to LGS and because the traditional LGS is based, at least to some extent, on catering to the customer even if it means stocking some items that don't move well.”

That is a true statement, and it’s interesting that rather than acknowledging that fact or attempting to refute it, you chose to create a strawman and refute the strawman instead. This is a strawman. I said no such thing. I implied no such thing. What I said was that “having several traditional LGS in an area will definitely help insure that people can look at things they're interested in buying because inventory and philosophy varies from LGS to LGS and because the traditional LGS is based, at least to some extent, on catering to the customer even if it means stocking some items that don't move well.”

That is a true statement, and it’s interesting that rather than acknowledging that fact or attempting to refute it, you chose to create a strawman and refute the strawman instead.

I bet to differ with your assertion that I used a strawman. Look at my entire statement. You are living in a fantasy land if you think that every LGS conducts business in the manner you have described. Are you actually attempting to put forth the belief that no one has ever been dissappointed with the an old format LGS? I have made a conditional statement not a statement of fact. You have answered my question and acknowledge that not all LGS act in the best interest of their customer and that not every LGS works in the same manner so the conditional part of my statement has been negated. No strawman here.

You have stated that "having several traditional LGS in an area will definitely help insure that people can look at things they're interested in buying because inventory and philosophy varies from LGS to LGS and because the traditional LGS is based, at least to some extent, on catering to the customer even if it means stocking some items that don't move well.” as if it is a universal truth but it is not. It is your opinion. It is not 1 + 1 =2. This conclusion is not necessitated or contained by definition in you premises. At best it relies on inference which is what I am refuting. The funny part is that is I am not really concerned about the truth value of your statement. If it makes you feel better I will acknowledge that your statement has truth value having a few local shops will "help" not guarantee that people can look at things before they buy.

Instead what I am and have been addressing two other issues. First is that I have to touch it feel if before I buy as necessary as it once was and is it worth paying a premium for. Clearly you believe it has value and you are willing to pay for it. Clearly I do not. The other point I am attempting to address is that in the current internet world of information where we can quickly determine the market price for a particular gun not just in our local market but on a national scale the old model of holding inventory that does not move well just so people can look at it is not a viable model anymore. When you made 20% to 30% on a gun and 100% on accessories etc... you could afford to carry this touch and feel inventory as a courtesy. However in the todays world of 10% to 15% margin on gun if you are lucky and 50% margin on accessories carrying that inventory may no longer be an option. I personally as a consumer do not want to go back to that 20% to 30% margin.

 

[rellascout]

What I’m saying is that unless we are willing to lose the additional things that a traditional LGS provides compared to online sellers/small smart format sellers, then we should pay for those things.

A subsidy is giving money and getting nothing in return. Paying for service/intangibles is not the same thing as a subsidy.

To say that people are subsidizing LGS by paying more is like saying that people are subsidizing nice restaurants because thay have to pay more for a burger and fries there than for a burger and fries at a fast food drive-through. The fact is that if you want someone to cook your burger to order, keep your drink glass filled, etc., if you want a nice atmosphere while you eat, etc., then you will have to and should expect to pay extra for those things. That's not subsidizing the restaurant, that's paying more because extra things (service/intangibles) are being provided that aren't provided at the drive-through.

I really like this argument. It is an interesting tact on your part but I think it falls short. Guns these days have been reduced more and more to a commodity. A Glock 19 is a Glock 19 is a Glock 19. The one I get here in WV is essentially the same as you get in FL. This is what has driven down the prices of guns across the board. More and more they are mass produced with little meaningful variance. If I pick up a Glock 19 from off the old school LGS's counter or order one from Buds I am still getting a Glock 19.

This is not the case with your burger analogy. The burger at McDonalds is not the same product as the Burger I get from Eric Riperts Westend Bistro. When I get my extra value meal for $5 at the fast food joint I am getting something completely different than the burger Ripert is serving me. I am not just paying for linen napkins, water service and a nice atmosphere. I am paying for waygu beef tenderloin ground to perfection seared perfectly with friets seasoned with sea salt served on a bun which was made today by hand from scratch etc.... Now your analogy would hold up if Ripert served me a Big Mac in a West End Bistro setting. I will pay the extra coin for Ripert's burger and do so with a smile. In many ways the burger at the Westend Bistro is a better value than the one at MacDonalds even if the price point is higher. If he served me a Big Mac all the extras would not make up for the fact I just paid $20 for a $5 fast food sandwich.

What your argument really boils down to is that you are willing to pay more for a commodity product to have guns on a shelf which you and no one else might actually ever buy. Do you believe that it is a good idea for a retailer to have product that does not move so people can come in and see it yet not buy it? Maybe I am missing something but again unless you have huge margins on the products you are selling this carrying cost will eventually kill your business.

Another part of your anology that fails IMHO is that you assume that I do not get "extras" from my SSF when in fact I do. I get all the "extras" + many I never get from the old school LGS from my SSF. The only one I don't get is being able to handle, look at and touch guns I am not interested in. LOL I get a pleasant buying experience from my SSF. We talk guns as I fill out my 4473. We joke around if we have the time. I ask how is business going. What is he selling the most of? Etc.... The only part that is missing is guns I will never buy.... LOL So please explain to me what "extras" I am missing. If there are no "extras" which have value to me there are no services or intangibles which justify a higher price. That is why I use the term subsidy to describe paying $20 for a Big Mac or $600 for a Glock 19.

 

[rellascout]

What I’m saying is that it’s a business model that provides things that online sellers and “small smart format” shops do not/can not provide. I’m saying that if those things are important to people they need to understand that those things add cost to the items sold in the shop and that they need to understand that they will have to pay the cost if they want the benefit.

It’s one thing for a person to truly embrace the new model completely and I’ve got no problem with those who actually do that. That would be like a person who eats ONLY at fast food joints because it’s cheaper there. But it’s messed up when people want all the service they get at a nice restaurant but still expect to pay fast food prices and complain when they are asked to pay more.

The problem is that many people demand/expect/rely on the benefits provided by an LGS but aren’t willing to pay for them and/or denigrate the traditional LGS for having prices that aren’t "competitive". If one is going to compare prices, it’s only reasonable to do so if the comparison is limited to other businesses that espouse the same basic model. It’s totally unreasonable to expect a full service, traditional LGS to have the same prices as an online seller or to suggest that they're a failed model simply because they can't match online prices.

I agree that the old LGS has model which does something that the internet and SSF stores do not but the real question is what is that worth? Is it worth 10% more for a commodity like a modern manufactured gun? Is it worth 20% more? I personally think that the value of just hold and looking at a particular gun is over rated. Anyone who has bought enough guns can site more than one example where they bought something that felt great in the hand, looked great in the store but disappointed at the range . There is no substitute for actually shooting the gun extensively.

The market simply does not work the way you are describing anymore when it comes to commodity goods like guns. You believe it is unreasonable to price Amazon against Best Buy but the majority of the market does not. Best Buy is closing stores and losing billions of dollars a quarter while Amazon is growing. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask a LGS to be competitive against everyone.

My #1 go to guy for NIB Colts has 2 LGS one in Alaska and one in brand new one in Las Vegas. The is price competitive and at the same time still has a full service shop. I personally believe that business need to survive on their merits. If someone sees value in the old LGS let them spend their money there. I personally go where price is best and service is efficient. In my experience the old school LGS does not meet either of these criteria.

If you and enough others believe that the "extras" are worth the additional cost than they should have no trouble maintaining and even growing their business but you rarely hear about that happening with the old format LGS you mainly hear them complain that they are losing money to the interweb.... so maybe their "extras" are not worth what they are charging.

 

[AABEN]

In defense of the shopowner, its entirely possiblethe gun WAS in stock when he priced it out to you, BUT, was sold out by the time he placed the order ( or was actually out of stock but showing as in stock... ).

That being said, I would cancel the order, head down the road and order it from somebody else, it sounds like you will likely be waiting on it anyway....

Beyond that, I wouldnt bother him with my money again

If I have a shop order a gun I have them to call to see if they have one. Then I pay for it most of the time it will be there in 3 Days

 

[230RN]

From the original post:

I walk in the gun shop with my girlfriend to check on a handgun I ordered and paid in full 2 weeks prior. This is besides the point, but when I went to order he said his dealer had them in stock, now all of a sudden he doesn't know when nor can he find one. ( really annoying since I wanted it yesterday )

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to mention this.

I've had something similar happen, and hopefully it isn't a standard business practice.

I looked over a firearm once and liked it, one reason being that the last four digits of the serial number happened to correspond to my birth date, so I remembered that, of course.

I asked him about the price, said OK, and left the shop to think it over.

A couple of days later I decided I really wanted that gun, and went back in to buy it. He said he sold it, but could order another one for me. I rubbed my chin and decided I did want that kind of gun, even without my DOB-matching serial number, so I went ahead and ordered it.

He calls a couple of days later and says my gun came in but in the meantime his supplier's price had gone up, so I went down to pick it up. When I looked it over, I discovered that it was the same gun I had looked at originally, according to the last four digits of the S/N.

I bellyached about that, with him insisting that it was a new gun from the supplier, until I mentioned the Date Of Birth (DOB) thing.

I told him outright that I thought it was a sleazy maneuver on his part and he finally backed down and brought the price back to the original quote and threw in two boxes of ammo for it. I went ahead with the purchase, not because of the free ammo, but because I really wanted the gun.

Never went back to that dealer, and he missed out on a lot of future sales opportunities from me.

But maybe it's something to watch out for, I don't know.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Capybara]

I can't figure out why firearms buyers would ever put up with substandard customer service. I have been on a hot streak lately and bought an Ruger SR22 from www.usautoweapons.com in Scottsdale, great salesman, amazing store, very good transaction. That same day I went to five other gun shops around Phoenix, looking for this specific handgun, and they were all in dumpy parts of town and the customer service ranged from indifferent to suspicious. Nobody had the gun in stock, nobody wanted to spend any time with me to show me what they did have, they all sucked. I've been in sales for decades and none of them even practiced salesmanship 101, they were all horrible. What a difference. US Autoweapons is not a cheap store, but it is really nice inside, they have a LOT of guns in stock and a beautiful showroom and they are pros. So they get my business.

I have recently found two local dealers where I live in California and both are EXCELLENT, very friendly, professional, competitive with on-line pricing, both do SSEs, both have ordered or found me hard to find weapons that they are not even dealers for. The one dealer just opened a range too, I bought a $300.00 membership and have bought $2,200.00 worth of guns and accessories and the other is building an AR pistol for me. The other dealer also a couple of thousand dollars of business from me as well. Life is too short to deal with jerks, just find a better dealer, they are out there. You will find as you grow older and gain more wisdom that the lowest price is not really a very good criteria for dealing with a vendor, it is all about the customer service. I don't care if am paying 5%-10% more cost if the dealer is a pro and is good at what they do and takes care of me. The lowest price is highly overrated.

Hopefully a lot of these old-timey schmucks that own gun stores will begin to realize that just because you sell guns, it doesn't give you a license to provider lousy customer relations and service. Because we are going to vote with our credit card and go elsewhere and they are going to go out of business. Taking your business elsewhere is the sweetest revenge.

 

[JohnKSa]

I bet to differ with your assertion that I used a strawman. Look at my entire statement. You are living in a fantasy land if you think that every LGS conducts business in the manner you have described. Are you actually attempting to put forth the belief that no one has ever been dissappointed with the an old format LGS? I have made a conditional statement not a statement of fact. You have answered my question and acknowledge that not all LGS act in the best interest of their customer and that not every LGS works in the same manner so the conditional part of my statement has been negated. No strawman here.

Attempting to attribute statements to the opposing debater and then refuting them instead of refuting what the other debater has actually stated is called a strawman fallacy.

Since I made no attempt to claim that "every LGS conducts business in" any particular manner, nor did I state or even imply that "no one has ever been dissappointed with the an old format LGS" (sic) your claims have nothing to do with refuting anything I claimed/stated/implied.

Alternatively, interjecting statements (which may or may not be true) into a debate to distract from the actual topic is called a red herring fallacy.

So maybe you didn't mean to claim that I said those things. If that's true then it's not a strawman fallacy, it's a red herring fallacy.

You have stated that "having several traditional LGS in an area will definitely help insure that people can look at things they're interested in buying because inventory and philosophy varies from LGS to LGS and because the traditional LGS is based, at least to some extent, on catering to the customer even if it means stocking some items that don't move well.” as if it is a universal truth but it is not.

What part of it is untrue?

First is that I have to touch it feel if before I buy as necessary as it once was and is it worth paying a premium for.

You earlier cautioned me against speaking for all gun buyers.

As for whether you "have to" or not, you earlier claimed that you did not "always need to", a claim which contains with in it the implict fact that sometimes you do need to. I don't always need to either, but sometimes I do. I think it's fair to assume that there are other people like you and I who do not always need to touch/handle before buying but sometimes do find it necessary.

If it's sometimes necessary, then it's impossible to argue that it's not worth paying for.

A Glock 19 is a Glock 19 is a Glock 19. The one I get here in WV is essentially the same as you get in FL. This is what has driven down the prices of guns across the board. More and more they are mass produced with little meaningful variance. If I pick up a Glock 19 from off the old school LGS's counter or order one from Buds I am still getting a Glock 19.

Yes, but an LGS isn't selling JUST guns, and if you order a Glock from Buds you don't get to handle it first, you don't get someone willing to help you return it if there's a problem, you don't get someone looking over the product before putting it into the showcase to insure that there are no problems with it, and most importantly, you don't get to handle a Glock 19 and a Glock 17 before buying to see which one fits you best.

I did my best to try to make it clear in the analogy that the difference between the nice restaurant and the fast food place wasn't the food, it was the OTHER things. I even listed them to help make it nearly impossible to miss the point: "The fact is that if you want someone to cook your burger to order, keep your drink glass filled, etc., if you want a nice atmosphere while you eat, etc.". None of those has to do with the difference in the actual product itself (the burger) because that's where the analogy breaks down. Every analogy breaks down at some point, or it wouldn't be an analogy, it would simply be a restatement of the topic under discussion.

But, if you wish, let's specify that the burger sold IS exactly the same so we can focus on the other aspects of the sale which was clearly the point I was trying to make. The fact is that even if the burger IS identical, if you want the other things you get from a nice restaurant (as opposed to a drive through fast food joint) you will have to pay more.

Do you believe that it is a good idea for a retailer to have product that does not move so people can come in and see it yet not buy it?

No, that's taking things to the extreme--clearly it makes no sense to try to sell things you know won't sell. But it does make sense to stock some things that aren't necessarily fast turnover items or high profit margin products as a service to your customers.

I think we can all understand that being able to pick something up on the way to the range, or on the way to a hunting lease as opposed to having to order it online and wait for a few days to get it can make the difference between a good day and a disaster. That's one of the "extras" you could well find yourself missing one day.

I agree that the old LGS has model which does something that the internet and SSF stores do not but the real question is what is that worth?

If that something is something that people sometimes find necessary then it's worth what it costs to provide. That may be simplistic, but that's what it comes down to.

We've all paid rush shipping to get something a little faster, because to our mind, it was necessary to get it faster. Similarly, if the convenience of of a well-stocked LGS is necessary to us at times then we should be willing to pay more for that convenience just as it costs more to ship something faster.

To get back to the point of the thread, it doesn't make sense to go into a full service LGS and then complain because they won't match online prices. That is bad behavior. If you want online prices, shop online. If you want to shop at an LGS, you should expect to pay for the extra costs incurred by that business model.

My #1 go to guy for NIB Colts has 2 LGS one in Alaska and one in brand new one in Las Vegas.

Next time you call Alaska, tell Ken I said hi. I've known him for a lot of years and finally got to meet him at Shot 2012.

 

[rellascout]

If that something is something that people sometimes find necessary then it's worth what it costs to provide. That may be simplistic, but that's what it comes down to.

We've all paid rush shipping to get something a little faster, because to our mind, it was necessary to get it faster. Similarly, if the convenience of of a well-stocked LGS is necessary to us at times then we should be willing to pay more for that convenience just as it costs more to ship something faster.

To get back to the point of the thread, it doesn't make sense to go into a full service LGS and then complain because they won't match online prices. That is bad behavior. If you want online prices, shop online. If you want to shop at an LGS, you should expect to pay for the extra costs incurred by that business model.

I hear what you are saying that convince is an important factor in some purchases and that it makes sense that you have to pay a premium for that. I guess we place different value on the premium that the old LGS places on their services. Clearly you see more value than I do which is why you take a different position then I do. You are willing to pay for it I am not. I guess what rubbed me the wrong way is that you insist I will miss something and that I should pay the premuim to keep a "few around" when I believe if they were to go away I would not be negatively impacted. I would adapt to the changes and life would go on. In the end I think my end of the market segment is growing and yours is shrinking. I do not see a lot of SSF gun shops on the forums complaining about how Buds, midwayUSA, Brownells, CDNN etc are killing their business. I maybe wrong it would not be the first time and it would not be the last. LOL

Getting back to the OP.... I think that the gun store over reacted. I think there was no need to follow you out of the store. He had price on an item. You pointed out you could get it cheaper down the street at another LGS and he choose not to match the price. It should have ended there IMHO.

Next time you call Alaska, tell Ken I said hi. I've known him for a lot of years and finally got to meet him at Shot 2012.

Will do John thanks for a great dicussion.

 

[Scott Farkus]

I think most people would be OK with paying a bit more for the convenience of an LGS, but my gosh, most of the time they're anywhere from 20-50%, or more, higher than what you can find on-line. Sorry, I can't justify that. And, as has been noted on this and other threads, for some reason gun stores seem to have the highest rate of "what the ***?" customer service of any retail industry that I've ever encountered. I won't repeat my stories here, but we've all got them I suspect.

For me, the biggest problem besides price is the hours that the LGS's around me tend to keep. I've mentioned this on other threads, but the bottom line is that if you insist on closing at 5 or 6 on weekdays, there is essentially no way I'm going to be able to shop in your store even if I wanted to. If you're open on Saturday (generally from 9-2, or maybe 9-4 if I'm lucky), you might have a shot if I can get away from the chores for a couple of hours, but even then it's iffy because I usually save my kitchen passes for gun show weekend. Plus, gun stores are so ridiculously crowded on Saturdays (because most of us can't go any other time), it's a major pain in the rear and not at all an enjoyable experience. So I tend to buy most of my stuff at gun shows, on-line, or Cabela's, not necessarily because it's cheaper but because the LGS's leave me no choice.

I was excited recently when a new shop opened not far from my house. They advertised being open until 7 and I believe until 4 or 5 on Saturday. I stopped by one evening on the way home and chatted with the owner, who seemed to be a nice guy, about AK-47's. He had almost nothing in stock (AK or otherwise) but offered to work with me if I wanted to order something from one of the internet dealers. About a month later I was ready to pull the trigger and I stopped by the shop on my way home to finalize things. Well, he was closed, and had a note on the door about being away for the week and would resume normal hours the following week. OK, not a big deal except that AK's seemed to be running out of stock everywhere. The next week came and I think I tried once more after work and then on the Saturday, and the same note was stuck to the door. So there goes that. I'm just glad I didn't have an AK sitting inside. I ordered one from my computer and had it sent to another shop in town (one of the few that I actually enjoy going to who just happens to be a major on-line player themselves) and they charged me $10 for the transfer.

As for handling guns before purchasing, I typically do that at the gun shows and keep a mental list of what I liked and what I might want to purchase at some point in the future. Then, when I'm ready and funds permit, I either buy on-line or from the vendor at the next show. Around here I guess we're fortunate in that we get reasonably priced vendors at our shows, but that's a different thread.

As others have said, technology has changed the retail model and those who don't adapt to it will fall by the wayside, as they've done for centuries.

 

[larryh1108]

Several points seemed to have gotten lost here. There are buyers who want to handle a certain gun before they decide to purchase it. They go to the LGS and ask to see Pistol X. The LGS has a nice selection of Brand X and spends time with the customer and answers his questions. The customer sees the price as $595 on the tag. He handles the gun, does his thing and tells the shop he wants to think about it. The customer then goes home, looks it up on Bud's and sees it for $525 with free shipping. The transfer fee is $35 so it's $560 instead of $595. Now, the LGS spends time with this guy, answers his questions, watches him do his thing and 45 minutes later he watches him go think about it as he walks out the door. Now, the LGS paid for the inventory for this guy to handle and helps Bud's get a sale. If you don't think this happens then your head is in the sand.

We now move forward. Same LGS, same gun the other guy looked at. Same employee. Customer2 is a regular who "supports" the LGS. He goes in, sees Pistol X, asks to see it. He does his thing, asks if he can dry fire it, etc. He does all the right things. He sees the price of $595 and says he can get it for less online. The LGS says the best he can do is $575 (which is $15 more than Bud's after transfer). The guy says he'd do $575 but he wants a "new" one since the one in the case has been handled and dry fired by a lot of people and may have a handling mark on it. He wants a new one "from the back". The shop says that's his only gun and he could order one but it will take some time and he can't give the discount because he already discounted it for being a case display. Customer2 gets miffed because he didn't get a new one at the promised price and chooses to not buy there and goes home and orders from Bud's.

How can the LGS win? In retail, if a customer goes home to think about it, 3 out of 4 times he does not come back for whatever reason. Change of mind, needs to save up some more, buys elsewhere, etc. When selling expensive goods people get apprehensive when it's time to buy. "Good" salespeople know this and become pushy. They want you to leave with that gun today. If they don't have what you want then they try to push what they do have. They begin to bad mouth your not-in-stock gun or gun maker. They make up stories about recalls and warranty work needed, etc. They become slimy and pushy and turn off a great many people but also stuff product into the hands of people who don't know any better. These sales tactics turn people off and they never go back.

So, it's a double edged sword. Let them walk and they go on the net. Get pushy and they run or buy. You supply guns for them to handle, pay for it upfront or pay the interest for it to be "financed" by the factory and they handle it, like it and then go to the net to buy it. You become Bud's local affiliation without making any profit. Lose/lose.

Also, many complain about the untrained, uncaring dolts behind the counter. You want to pay the same price as your online source or they don't get your business. To cut the profits they have to cut somewhere else. Fixed expenses are just that... fixed. Rent or mortgage, lights, heat, A/C, insurance are all fixed expenses. A variable expense is wages and the amount of employees you can afford. You want internet prices at a brick and mortar store? Then you get minimum wage people who were slinging burgers a week ago. You want experienced gun lovers who know their stuff? Then that extra $25 or $50 you pay at the LGS goes to keep these people behind the counter. We want it both ways and in reality it just can't be. There is only so much markup in a gun. Throwing in a box of ammo costs the store and you the extra $15. It was not thrown in for free. Someone paid for it.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Also, many complain about the untrained, uncaring dolts behind the counter. You want to pay the same price as your online source or they don't get your business. To cut the profits they have to cut somewhere else. Fixed expenses are just that... fixed. Rent or mortgage, lights, heat, A/C, insurance are all fixed expenses. A variable expense is wages and the amount of employees you can afford. You want internet prices at a brick and mortar store? Then you get minimum wage people who were slinging burgers a week ago. You want experienced gun lovers who know their stuff? Then that extra $25 or $50 you pay at the LGS goes to keep these people behind the counter. We want it both ways and in reality it just can't be. There is only so much markup in a gun. Throwing in a box of ammo costs the store and you the extra $15. It was not thrown in for free. Someone paid for it.

Honestly, the free market doesn't care. If the ability to handle a gun in person is valuable enough to some buyer where they're willing to pay the extra cost to keep a LGS around, then the money will speak for itself. If not, the money will still speak for itself.

People spend money to get what they want. A business makes money by selling what the customer wants. That symbiotic relationship is the core of capitalism.

You need to understand, emotion and nostalgia is only one factor in capitalism, and a small one at that. Some people like being able to drink coffee and hang out at the gun store, seeing used guns or handling new ones, talking with other owners and the clerks. That's an emotional attachment to the current LGS model. But the model is becoming unsustainable. The bulk of customers are choosing sides and it seems they are in favor of saving money by buying online.

There still needs to be a local place for transfers. Collectors of used guns will probably still want to buy in person. Some people will still make impulse purchases and choose "shoot it today" over waiting a week for Buds to ship it. LGS will still be around in some form for a while because they provide some services that really cannot be found elsewhere. The current LGS model came about when FFLs became required to move and sell guns. LGSs didn't even exist 100 years ago. There will be a time in the future where they will cease to exist as well. Is it now? No. Again, they still provide something that can't be found elsewhere. If that changes, they'll go the way of telegraph operators. But for now, a smart gun store owner will realize what his strengths and weaknesses are, and play to those. Used guns, trade ins, historical pieces, an on site-range, gun smithing, etc are all things that one can't get online, at least not easily. A smart store will play those up. Brand new guns, accessories, and ammo can be found elsewhere for cheaper, and people choose that more often than not. A smart store will see this and make his business be less about that.

The problem is gun store were used to being the only game in town, and got complacent and greedy. Now that online says have grown in the past decade, the old timers running gun stores are having a hard time seeing that their way of doing things is not working as well, and it's only going to get worse.

That's creative destruction. The new way is created and the old way is destroyed. Change and adapt to survive, or don't. A smart telegraph operator around the turn of the 19th century had two choices. Learn about these new fanlged telephones, or be out of a job. The smart telegraph guys adapted and became telephone linemen or operators. The dumb ones got fired. That's how creative destruction works, and barring the takeover of communism, it's going to keep working that way. And that includes the sale of guns. Adapt to the times, emphasize your strengths, market what people need from you, and focus less on what they can get elsewhere.

It's the market. Fail to adapt and fail to thrive, you get no sympathy from me. Adapt and succeed, you'll earn the only thing that matters. My money.

 

[Agsalaska]

Several points seemed to have gotten lost here. There are buyers who want to handle a certain gun before they decide to purchase it. They go to the LGS and ask to see Pistol X. The LGS has a nice selection of Brand X and spends time with the customer and answers his questions. The customer sees the price as $595 on the tag. He handles the gun, does his thing and tells the shop he wants to think about it. The customer then goes home, looks it up on Bud's and sees it for $525 with free shipping. The transfer fee is $35 so it's $560 instead of $595. Now, the LGS spends time with this guy, answers his questions, watches him do his thing and 45 minutes later he watches him go think about it as he walks out the door. Now, the LGS paid for the inventory for this guy to handle and helps Bud's get a sale. If you don't think this happens then your head is in the sand.

It happens all of the time. In fact I am planning on doing it this weekend. This is not unique to the gun business. Go ask former Circuit City employees.

So, it's a double edged sword. Let them walk and they go on the net. Get pushy and they run or buy. You supply guns for them to handle, pay for it upfront or pay the interest for it to be "financed" by the factory and they handle it, like it and then go to the net to buy it. You become Bud's local affiliation without making any profit. Lose/lose..

No profit? Really. Did you offer to do the transfer? Did you try to sell him some ammo. Did you have any used guns in your showcase? Does he need an extra magazine for it. How about a holster? The last gun I bought was off of gunbroker. I live in Vegas and we only have one guy in town that really understands customers service. By the time he was done with me I had spent $115 bucks in his store. He probably profited $70. There were five other guys in line waiting to do the same thing I was doing. ANd the owner had his usual big smile.

Also, many complain about the untrained, uncaring dolts behind the counter. You want to pay the same price as your online source or they don't get your business. To cut the profits they have to cut somewhere else. Fixed expenses are just that... fixed. Rent or mortgage, lights, heat, A/C, insurance are all fixed expenses. A variable expense is wages and the amount of employees you can afford. You want internet prices at a brick and mortar store? Then you get minimum wage people who were slinging burgers a week ago. You want experienced gun lovers who know their stuff? Then that extra $25 or $50 you pay at the LGS goes to keep these people behind the counter. We want it both ways and in reality it just can't be. There is only so much markup in a gun. Throwing in a box of ammo costs the store and you the extra $15. It was not thrown in for free. Someone paid for it.

This is wrong. Employees attitudes are a direct result of work environment, more specifically attitudes of managent and owners. I have been in plenty of burger flipping places that have some of the best customer service you can experience and looks like a fun place to work. I have been in gun shops with master gunsmiths and professional shooters that couldnt care less if you are in the store or not. Its a direct result of the attitude of management. The reason I shop at Buds, gunbroker, etc, dont go to gun shows, and avoid most gun stores like the plague is because of the attitudes of the people that work there. But its not there fault. I believe most gun shop owners have very little understanding of what customer service means. And their employees, whether well paid or minimum wage, are just a reflection of that. Hell you see it on this board all of the time.




Oh and nice post Ragnar. Couldnt agree more.

 

[larryh1108]

Employees attitudes are a direct result of work environment, more specifically attitudes of managent and owners.

100% correct.

I was pointing out the various pitfalls in owning a gun shop with the internet as his competition. I agree 100% with those who say adapt or perish. Too many gunshops have the attitude of "take it or leave it" and we, the buyers, leave it.

I had an experience with my LGS a few years back. This was when the net became a serious contender in selling guns, not a novelty. I was a regular there but they were family owned for maybe 40+ years and were friendly enough without being warm. There wasn't much competition until the net got hot so they had their arrogance of being the only show in town.

Well, I go in and ask how much they charged to do an FFL transfer. They told me it was $45 and if it was a new gun I also had to pay what their profit would have been if they sold it to me. It was a "lost profit fee". Quoted, not ad libbed. Well, I thanked them and left and I never bought another item from their store even if I had to travel 1/2 hour more and had to pay 10% more. My choice. I did use their range because it was $10 for as long as you wanted but they got no more counter businesss from me.

The "old timers" had and still have a hard time adjusting. It's not like it used to be and it won't be like it used to be. 20 years from now, who knows what it will be like but they'll pine for the way it was back in '12, I'm sure. Adapt or perish. There is no more room for arrogance and indifference when we have so many choices. Back in the day of our choices being limited are long gone. I have no use for any establishment that does not appreciate that I spend my money there whether it's a new gun, a new pair of shoes, a new car or my dry cleaning. If they don't appreciate me then I will go elsewhere where I am, at least, treated like they want my business. They don't have to like me. I'm not buying their love.