Armed Robbery, Shoot?

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If I felt my life or that of another was in danger, the BG would get one warning as soon as I could draw/ aim/ and put some distance between us. If the BG did not run out, or made an agressive move towards either of us... he had his chance. Yes I would potentially have a lot to loose in the way of court costs, and maybe even time in jail (until hopefully things got cleared out), but we have responsibilities to our neighbors. Even a stranger is a neighbor! When a life is in danger the right thing to do is save it. However, if I was able to put considerable distance between the BG and myself, and the clerk was a reasonable distance away, I would draw my pistol if possible and wait and see. There may not be time for a warning, so be ready! If kids were nearby, I don't know if I would even give a warning if their lives were in danger. The biggest unknown is what will the clerk do?! He might think the BG and I are together... also, the clerk may be about to pull a gun... just can't know for sure.
I like the idea of yelling "Police!" (as in calling for them), but I'm not sure about the legal ramifications.
 
Guy tried to rob the local gun store here. Got the cash and was on his way out the door when the owner shot him in the ??? (the guy did the robbery at pistol point). Once shot, the perp dropped his weapon and surrendered.
No criminal charges were filled against the owner. Owner stated that the guy could have turned and fired at any time.

OK, my point is this.

I will not assume those who make life threatening gestures with weapons are possesed of any rational thought processes. They may be drugged and appear rational only up until the weapon is presented by them. A moment later, the appearently lucid behavior (robbery?) could change to a non logical drug induced action (someone's death).

By this description, I would back and fire if I could to save any possible innocent life from POSSIBLE chaotic behavior (the distance is simply too close).
 
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By this description, I would back and fire if I could to save any possible innocent life from POSSIBLE chaotic behavior (the distance is simply too close).
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You betcha! From the first move, this confrontation would last less than a second.

I'm reminded in this debate of the old Samurai tactic of the quick draw -- stand close to your opponent and suddenly draw. He's beheaded or disembowled even before the tip of your sword clears the scabbard.
 
Vern,

I hear what you're saying and I can appreciate your viewpoint. Fact is each of us on this thread is going to react differently. I will tell you a couple years back (before my current job) I did walk out of a store shortly before it was robbed. I noticed as I was walking out that there was a guy dressed oddly and who was paying an unusual amount of interest in me (mad dogging me, really).

I remember that I joked to my self under my breath: "What....let me guess that guy with the sunglasses and hat is probably going to rob that place..." and I sort of chuckled. Well guess what, that's exactly what he did. The guy had parked only a matter of 20 feet from where I was parked, and based upon his odd behavior and clothing, I actually had a fleeting thought of stopping to get the plate of the old camaro that he had purposely backed into the parking space thereby placing the rear end very close to a low wall.

I didn't and I was kicking myself later...

Instead, I went about my business and entered an establishment two doors down in that same strip mall. I was in there for maybe 10 minutes or so, and as I exited I saw the guy with the hat and sunglasses leaving the parking lot in a real hurry. At that moment my internal alarms were going off and I tried to get his plate without success. I then returned to my car where I sat for a few moments thinking about it. I eventually dismissed my thoughts with: "I'm being paranoid."

Well, I continued to sit there now, eating my lunch and listening to Rush Limbaugh. Well, 15 or so minutes later, as I finished my lunch, one unmarked car and one marked patrol car pulled into the lot and boxed ME in. I got out slowly and said: "Lemme guess, that store there was robbed, wasn't it?"

The officers both with hands on their guns looked at me suspiciously and the one nearest me said something to the effect: "Why would you say that, what do you know?" I then related everything that had happened during the past 30 minutes. They checked my car (basically looking in through the open door), saw that I was infact eating lunch and apparently since my description did match their suspect (I was dressed in a suit and tie) they then took my statement.

I can assure you one thing I've learned from that experience, not to mention my subsequent training and experience....

Whenever my innner voice is screaming to me that something is wrong, I don't dismiss it as: "I'm being paranoid." I act with caution.
 
Being alert isn't being paranoid -- I was once mugged under almost identical circumstances. Fortunately, after seeing my .45, the mugger remembered he had an appointment elsewhere.

Someone asked, "How do you learn to be in Condition Yellow?"

The answer is, pay attention to what's going on around you until it becomes second nature, and trust your instincts.
 
Put some more distance between us, and draw the weapon. Do not call attention to myself, but if he moves to attach the clerk or myself, shoot for slide lock. If he just leaves with $50, so much the better for all of us. My shooting him is going to cost me $20grand+.

In CA it is legal to excercise deadly force to stop an imminent threat to yourself OR ANOTHER. Knife in hand 4' away is already plenty imminent enough. Infact, it's too imminent, so I'd step back a bit, then shoot. Get a good lawyer.
 
I'm with the "only shoot to protect myself crowd". It might be cold but it's how I feel.

I would try to back off & put distance between me & crook. If I could do so I would get a hand on my piece OR get it out & hold it low & out of sight.......not pointing it at anyone,finger outside the trigger guard.

If possible I would bail out of a back door/emergency exit. If BG bailed before I could.....even better. In any case the clerck is probably on his own. I won't risk jail time or huge loss in civil court to protect a stranger. The most I would do is maybe use pepper spray on the perp unless he came at me. I'm not a cop,so I have no duty to protect or serve. I'm free to retreat.

Sorry..........because the clerk chose to work in a stop & rob,unarmed with no barrier & risk his life for 6.50$ an hour is no reason for me to do time or lose my azz in court.

The blame for this line of thought rests with our elected officials, not me or any other person who would agree with me.
 
I will be the first to admit that I am not a 'Been-There; Done-That'. With that, I will also say that the effects of adrenaline in the moment of the robbery may overtake whatever training I (or most of us, I suspect) might have.

But with all that said, I'd agree that...

*Distance from the BG is good. More distance is better. Same goes for cell calls to 911.

*I don't buy the "I'm assaulting the knife-wielding BG by producing my gun" argument. This case seems to be exactly why I carry CCW--to protect the lives of myself and my family, as well as third parties from 'imminent death or grievous bodily injury'. The fact that the BG has created a situation and brought a knife into what might easily upgrade into a gun-fight reflects on his stupidity, not any aggession of mine.

*I am not a LEO. I've practiced a couple of times in announcing some command right before shooting a target ("Stop! I'll Shoot", "Drop the Knife"...that sort of thing), and I've found that it added a complexity to the thing that I don't think I'll use if I ever face this situation. For me, it will be difficult enough, (especially considering poor lighting, movement, adrenaline, etc) to align the sights to make the shot. Verbalizations are out.

*I'm wondering about those who will wait until the BG threatens to start cutting the clerk or you before you either produce your gun, or pull the trigger. Hasn't the BG already explicitly threatened everyone by beginning his armed robbery in the first place? IMO, he doesn't have to slice someone, or turn towards me, before I shoot him.

The point about "The clerk is responsible for his own life--he could be carrying too and has chosen not to" goes to how much effort I'd put into stopping the violence. For a family member, its reasonable to imagine that one would pull every stop to prevent the violence. For a third party, it is somewhat less. But I think the guilt I'd have for backing myself right out the back door while the clerk was being stabbed, for instance, would overcome any reluctance I might have at getting involved. Maybe this is just me, but I'd like to think that I'd put forth a reasonable effort to keep the third party from being hurt.
 
I agree with you, but I'm probably going to be more conservative in applying deadly force with a stranger's life on the line as opposed to someone I care about. Ergo, if the criminal is threatening a third party I would probably wait until the criminal actually attacked, wheras if he was threatening a friend or family member I would consider having a weapon at all sufficient cause to shoot.
 
The blame for this line of thought rests with our elected officials, not me or any other person who would agree with me.

Right, it's an elected officials fault your not willing to protect someone else. What happened to personal responsibility? If that's how you feel, fine your free to do so. However, that situation ( or one similar ) could happen in any legal and/or political climate. Your responsible for the hows and whys of any decision you make.
 
I have a personal responsibility to me & my wife which includes staying out of jail & not doing something that leads to financial ruin. Any harm that befalls the clerk is on the perp..........not me.

Our elected officials allow a climate to exist in which a criminal can sue his victim or a good samaratian. There are anti gun DAs who would want to prosecute because they have an agenda. This is insane. This climate,which elected officials allow to exist (yes I know we elect them) is why I feel the way I do.

We have all heard of people having legal troubles for defending themselves in there own home. Knowing this,anyone who would use deadly force to protect a stranger in a public place is a bigger man than I.

The law should be that if the plaintif suffered harm because of involvment in a criminal act he cant'sue OR it would be a perfect defense for the defendant. The law is not written like this.......why.......thank our elected officials.

If the law were different. If the legal system had more common sense & sanity & offered some legal protection to a good sam.....then my outlook would be much different.
 
Hmmm

Obviously we cannot be sure how we would act in a situation like this, but when we think about such things ahead of time, I do believe that it puts us in a better position to act the way we'd like to than if we simply never thought about it. Basically, talks like these, and maybe drills like the one mentioned in the ccw course, are the best we can do.

Also, four feet is really close, as alluded to numerous times. You're already in a bad situation if you've allowed yourself to get four feet from an armed robbery without noticing. The only way for a half-way aware person would be if the clerk's counter was four feet from the entrance to the building. If that is the case, then you should be able to see what's going on right when you walk in, stop, and be in a position to dodge right back out the door if the perp turns on you. A wall or door is pretty good cover from a knife.

With this in mind, I would like to take the liberty of having the confidence in myself that I would be able to see what was going on before I came within four feet, or that I am in the significantly safer position of being in the doorway of the store. Thus, In my statements, I am assuming that I can produce my sidearm before the perp can stab me. I don't think that I'm really infringing on the orignal purpose of this discussion by making these assumptions. (If I am, I apologize)

So, the question is what should the course of action be if you are in this position. On one end of the spectrum seems to be the group that sees the imminent danger to another, and is therefore justified in shooting. The other end argues that they are only responsible for protecting themselves, and:
Any harm that befalls the clerk is on the perp..........not me.

Of course, there are others who are in the middle. I think I would tend to be in the middle, as well, as I usually don't see things in black and white. (I'm not saying others do, I'm just saying I don't. I don't want to step on anybody's toes here.) Of course our personal beliefs will come in to play here, and for me, I have a hard time leaving the clerk to the hands of the perp, whether or not he had a responsibility to defend himself.

Also, despite the possibility of the perp having tunnel vision, I think that chances are rather large that he would be aware of my presence, and that makes me a threat to him, even if it's just because I'd be another witness. I think odds would be very high that the perp would turn his attention to me. I know that's just speculation, but that's really all I can do at this point.

I see nothing wrong with drawing to a low ready, and trying to issue a verbal warning. Perhaps I wouldn't be able to do so if it really happened, but I also think that contemplating situations like this before-hand (like what we're doing now) increases my chances of keeping my cool in real life. The crook is left with only two choices, then, as I see it. You're not covering him, and he most certainly initiated all of this, so I don't really think that I could be charged with assault; the crook can either back down, or make good on his threats. It puts the ball in his court, he decides his fate from there.

Finally, it is my personal belief that America has become too selfish lately. Yes, we absolutely have responsibility for ourselves, but I have messed up enough times and been in enough bad situations to feel that I should try to help others when I can. I also truly feel that we could decrease crime (it will never go away) if we didn't tolerate it so much. I don't ever want to be a victim so someone doing evil, and I don't consider myself better than anybody else, so why should they be a victim if I don't want to be? I think that the beauty of ccw is that it allows the everyday citizen, not only to protect their loved ones from harm, but to also make it clear that such violent crime will not be tolerated.

I think that taking the time to consider issues such as this helps train our minds to react appopriately in the event that it really happens. If I do react appropriately, I think that the risk of jail-time and crippling legal fees is low enough that I would try to act to protect the clerk. Once again, it comes down to personal conviction on this, and in my view, the imminent danger of death that the clerk is in outways the possible danger of financial hardship to my family down the road. I don't feel that I love my family any less than anyone else, that's just how I view the situation.

This has been an interesting discussion, so I thought I'd share my thoughts...
 
If I was plainly visible, I'd be a good witness. If he looked funny at me, I'd offer him my wallet (old one, with a couple of expired cards and three dollars in cash). After all, it's the money the perp wants (he said so himself) and the majority of armed robberies don't end up with a shooting. The odds favor the perp getting the cash and running. Once he's gone, I can give a good account of what s/he looked like, the kind of car they left in, and testify at the trial.

If I wasn't readily visible, then it's an entirely different situation - I can prepare to introduce Mr. Slabsides to Mr. Perp if needed without drawing Mr. Perp's attention to myself.

These scenarios always make me smile, because I can't imagine anyone who hasn't had a lot of training would be able to react quickly and automatically in RoboCop-like fashion. For the rest of us, staying calm and using our head is probably the best bet in fluid situations like these.
 
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This is an inherantly personal question and while I can agree that other persons are responsible for their own defense, I feel that I would have to back away, discreetly draw and watch. On the one hand, the legal ramifications of shooting someone who has yet to become violent can be extremely damaging(I have no moral issues with taking out a criminal from this world but he might simply take his goodies and bug off, which would save me considerable time and money). And even if the person becomes violent, you could still have plenty of trouble on your hands. But on the other hand, if someone were wrongfully killed in my presence and I could have prevented it, I believe I have effectively commited murder. I didn't pull the trigger or wield the knife but I let it happen and that is almost or just as bad.(Morals are, of course, a personal thing.) But if the BG knows his stuff or has any sort of strength and speed, he could fatally wound the clerk before you can even raise your weapon.

You are also at risk though. The average human being can cross 21 feet in under three seconds if s/he doesn't take their time. And it can be done faster. If he decides to kill the clerk and figures he does not want any witnesses he could close the distance and fatally wound you. Even if you could draw your weapon discreetly and move away, you might not have time to react. But if you simply blow him away before he does anything, you may end up losing a huge amount of money, perhaps even face jail time. A complex situation.
 
The azz backward legal system is the reason I feel the way I do. I would rather pull steel & confront the perp (& shoot if absoutely necessary) to protect an innocent person. What makes me unwilling to is the legal climate that exists in which a criminal can sue his victim or a good sam & possibility win.

I was at an indoor range last month in Whitehall PA. I was told a story about a guy who shot (but did not kill) someone in self sefense in a public place. He was in the right but it still cost him money & he still cannot get his carry permit back in Lehigh county PA despite the fact that the DA did not prosecute. Now........keep in mind that PA is a fairly gun freindly state. I could just wonder what would happen in NY or NJ. (Yes there are carry permits in NJ but they're very rare.)

No........I can't say for sure if this story is true or not. But hearing & reading s#!* like this makes me very unwilling to use physical force to help a stranger.
 
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