question about dealing with an armed perp...

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rmt22

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2006
Messages
56
I am a crim def lawyer and have had a FEW armed robbery trials. I had one case that involved 2 incidents that were on the same day with allegedly the same perp.

In both case you had contractors who were near their cars

1. 3 guys were looking at blueprints on the hood of a truck and perp walled up and pulled gun and got wallets then left

2. 1 guy was getting something out of his truck and perp walked up with gun pulled and again demanded wallet


FORTUNATELY THERE WERE NO INJURIES in either of the cases

My question is if YOU DON'T have the opportunity to get your gun out first would you still attempt to draw your gun?

IMO it seems that if you believe it is just a "robbery and bolt" would you cooperate even though you are armed?

I also handled another case a few years ago where the pizza delivery guy was being robbed so he pulls gun and then shoots the perp. (my client was in the backseat of the the perps car)

I think cooperation is probably the best option if BG gets drop on you. I would say that you probably should not get in the car with the BG under any circumstances.

In case #2 the BG told the V to come to him and the V just took off running away from BG.

These fact patterns are w/ male V's. If it is a female V then you have to be more prepared to flee at 1st opportunity IMO.
 
trying to out draw a trigger finger is a quick way to get killed.



Yes it can happen, but the odds are not good.
 
I'd give him the wallet and let him run.
Unless I saw an overt act (by the thug) where there wasn't anything to lose, I'd keep the gun in the pocket...IF he had gotten the drop on me (shame on me for not being more aware of my surroundings).
I normally carry 20 to 40 bucks. There's no credit cards to lose, so a robber can take what little I have...if he runs away, fine. If I sense more then that, I'll do what ever is necessary to protect myself.

If you are defending a thug...just plead for the death penalty. The more of these street thugs we execute, the better.
 
not a jury question...I was asking b/c I have Concealed carry permit but I keep f/a in cars, home, and office. B/c I am always going through metal detectors carrying daily would not be an option.

I enjoy reading these boards and based on the posts it appears many carry daily. But it seems that carrying alone without CONSTANT VIGILANCE is not going to allow you to avoid being a V.

IMO unless you are in your house or car there will be some point where BG will get the jump on you.
 
Drawing on a drawn gun isn't smart.

Having the situational awareness to see it coming is smart.

Paying attention to your gut instinct is smart. Is this a robbery? Or will it turn into a murder?

Training to disarm someone who's pointing a gun at you is smart. Going for the gun is not a good idea most of the time, but I'm not one to die on my knees. Even FoF training to see if you can get the gun pointed elsewhere long enough to draw your own is a good idea.

Like you said, whatever you do, don't leave the scene with the guy. If you have to, then go fighting. A kidnapping victim's chances of waking up dead or pregnant increase exponentially if they leave the initial scene.
 
I think it's the sort of thing a person needs to work out before they make the decision to carry a weapon. Given the choice, I don't think the inconvenience of losing the contents of my wallet is worth the risk of someone shooting my brains out while I go for my weapon. Playing hero in that case would be rather foolish.

BUT if a gunman were actually shooting at me or a loved one, darn tootin' I'd draw and shoot back.

That said, a person doesn't really know how they will react to a dangerous situation until it actually happens.
 
Understand, the object here is not to get away with shooting someone. The object is to NOT GET SHOT.

There are circumstances under which you may be able to draw fast enough, but they are subject to the given circumstances. We use the three-step rule. If you are watching a bad guy, and they are closer than three steps away from you, they can probably charge and grab you before you can react. This includes when you are holding a gun on them. Most people can't react fast enough. Try it sometime, get a friend with an airsoft pistol and try with them holding the gun on you, charge them and see how fast they react. The first few times they won't pull the trigger in time. Then they will shoot slightly before you reach them. After practice and KNOWING you are about to charge, they will be able to shoot first.

There may exist situations where you have the advantage. I usually keep my gun and my wallet in about the same place. If they tell me to reach for one, but have no idea that I have the other, they won't realize that I have a gun until it's too late. There is also surprise. If the bad guy hasn't thought this through, and his plan falls apart, you may well have time to run or draw.

Ask yourself this. If you DON'T shoot, what guarantee do you have that they WON'T shoot you anyway?
 
one PROBLEM is that it is almost impossible to anticipate a robbery. In the cases I mentioned one happened at noon and the other at ~2pm literally broad daylight and off a busy commercial street and the other in a residential neighborhood.

A few days ago a woman was raped at 2pm in spokane wash.


http://www.kxly.com/Global/story.asp?S=10415124


However I do believe an attack while you are in your car, office, or home may give you a chance to grab your handgun.
 
Would it be permitted for you to leave your weapon with the metal detector screener upon entering the prohibited local and have the screener return your gun to you when you leave? A gun at house, car or office is nice but a gun on your hip is much better.

Every incident is different but having a perp point a gun at you doesn't mean your out of options. Get some gun defense training videos and see how the pros do it. A proficient armed concealed carry person can get four or five shots into the center mass of an assailant before the assailant can react and pull the trigger of the gun he is pointing at you. It takes a surprising amount of time for anyone to realize something is happening and to react to it. You, with your concealed weapon have the element of surprise. After all, the perp thinks you are unarmed.

I'm not saying this is what anyone should do. Every sitiuation is different. But you're certainly not out of options because you got surprised. Regardless, it's important to be really proficient with your weapon, to have a good method of on body carry and to limit yourself to jacketed hollow points in 9mm, 40s&w or 45acp only. Mouse guns just don't meet the need.
 
Action beats reaction. The perp with the gun drawn beats the citizen with the gun in the holster. Attempting to draw in this situation is an invitation to getting shot. Give him the wallet and chalk it up to experience. If there is more to it than that, for instance trying to move you to another place, you may have to reconsider but not for a straightforward robbery.
 
I don't carry a Wallet...so, my reponse to an armed Robber demanding my Wallet, would be "Uhhhh, no, sorry, I do not carry a Wallet. Maybe, try that guy, over there ( chin nod to the nearest whomever), he probably has one..."
 
In my mind the key is determining when it is going from a simple hand over the wallet & the bad guy goes away scenario & turns into a hand over the wallet & die anyway scenario.

Toss the wallet & bolt is probably the best option.

Never go from crime scene A to crime scene B. B will ALWAYS be a place that grossly favors your attacker. You might end up dead either way but your chances at scene A are much better than at scene B. This could be as hollywood as you get nabbed at the ATM & driven out the the woods & tossed into the hole in someone's basement or as simple as you get nabbed at the ATM & moved behind a dumpster in the alley 10 yards away & shot in the face.

The things your attacker says will have little, if anything, to do with what you're concerned with (staying alive). His rap exists to distract you & get him deep inside your OODA loop. Ignore his words & watch his body language. If you just know you're going to get shot then it's time to do something. That will not necessarily involve you going for a gun.
 
i got a church buddy who got robbed once. He was standing in his driveway with another couple (after bible study) at night maybe around 8-9 pm when some hoodies pulled up in a car. They didn't even bother getting out of the car but pulled out gun(s) from the window. I know for a fact he CC's. He got a sub compact Glock .45 (he showed it to me once). i guess he didn't wanna risk the other couple who's standing there. He and the couple just gave up their wallets and the crooks took off.
 
Being armed does not guarantee your survival. Being armed and having strong situational awareness skills will not guarantee survival either. In fact, none of the practices and methods we discuss on this forum will ever guarantee your survival. They simply improve the odds and that's all we're trying to do. If you think the BG is going to kill you even after you give up your wallet, then you need to come up with a plan B. For me, drawing probably wouldn't be the first step of plan B. I would first try to get out from in front of the gun and then to cover. Hopefully, that would give me a chance to draw and re-evaluate.

However, my plan A for if someone gets the drop on me is to pull my wallet and fling it in one direction while running screaming and yelling in the other direction. BGs usually want money, not attention. If he goes after the money, he and I are both putting distance betweent us. If he follows me, he gets attention while moving away from the money. If that happens, then I know he is after something besides money and I alter my tactics.
 
This makes me think of an episode of personal defense TV... The drill that were running, and I have not tried this... was to have a pistol in the pocket of a jacket. The guy on the show, would just reach into his pocket and shoot without drawing the gun.

It seems that would be helpful in this situation, if you felt you needed to shoot.

Otherwise, trying to draw is suicide... or so the experts say. Hard for me to say, because I have NEVER be out drawn by a target.

Leroy
 
This makes me think of an episode of personal defense TV... The drill that were running, and I have not tried this... was to have a pistol in the pocket of a jacket. The guy on the show, would just reach into his pocket and shoot without drawing the gun.
Click to expand...

During the winter I walk around with a J Frame in my coat pocket just so I can have a hand on it while I'm out and about. Practice point/retention shooting when I go to the range, and twice a year I'll hit the thrift store to buy a couple old coats. Shoot through the pockets to ensure function and keep the rust off the technique, then throw them away.
 
Far too many undisclosed variables present in these scenario's to make an educated decision as to what one would or would not do.

However in general, based on my experiance with the training level of Joe average Concealed Weapons holder I'd say more often than not that trying to draw against the leveled gun of a bad guy is not going to end well for the victim.
 
Well, armed robbery in both cases I call it.

I also see a failure of situational awareness on the robbees (Bad word, bear with me) and a fine oppertunity of the robber to advance and create sitaution with gun already drawn.

With me? Well. It's going to be over one way or the other extremely quickly. I have had previous attempts on me several times and tried to see them coming. Once in a while I get caught because my Situational Awareness was not good but had to .. very quickly decide which way it's going to play out and follow through. Usually I honor the threat as they say and possibly may not survive. But considering that I have already used up several of my 9 live's it's nigh time anyhow.
 
Yes....lots and lots of variables.


What kind of Hand Gun is the 'perp' leveling at one?


If a Revolver, can one see into the Cylinder?

Is he or she in Double-Action mode, or single?

If an Automatic, has it an external, visible Hammer?

Is it a single action or double action kind?

Is their finger even 'in' the Trigger Bow?

How close are they? How close is their weapon/Handgun?


How big, strong, alert, inebriated, determined, or 'serious' does the perp seem?


I do not carry a Wallet anyway...so, probably, my game-opener, would be, "Sorry, I do no carry a Wallet...maybe, go try that guy over there ( chin nod to the nearest anyone...) see if he's got one you can have..."


Or, "I don't speak English..."


Or, "You're late...Big Ed's really peed off now...the stuff's over here, and I hope for your sake, you brought the Money this time..."


Lol...
 
OK, if you think that shooting from your pocket is a good idea, watch the Mythbusters from last night. (I suppose if you didn't think ahead and Tivo it, that's no one's fault but your own, don't get mad at me.) See what happens when you have soft material against the gap of a revolver between the cylinder and barrel, next to the forcing cone. Granted, they were shooting an X-frame revolver, doesn't mean I want to try it with a snubby loaded with premium defensive ammo either. You have at least the material of your pants on one side. Are you sure that the top or inside of your thigh or....something else won't be unacceptably close to that gap? You must wear baggier pants than I do.
 
one V described the gun as "silver" it was never recovered and another V I believe said it was a small handgun.

If I had to guess one of those POS 380's or the like.

I actually tried the cases twice and both cases ended in a mistrial.

D was identified in a lineup (photo array).

The reason I bring this up is 1.it was a REAL LIFE scenario that is very common in urban areas and 2. it seems to be contrary to what I see posted by MANY

now in the two fact patterns it is doubtful that any of the V's had handguns, but I believe even if you armed if BG gets the jump then you have to be willing to give the wallets up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
Another scenario
Replies
18
Views
2K
80fl
8
Smaug
  • Locked
A good reason for revolver
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
149
Views
5K
trackskippy
trackskippy
M
  • Locked
Question on this scenario
2 3
Replies
57
Views
1K
RustyShackelford
R
Bazoo
  • Locked
How to deal with an armed robbery.
2 3 4 5
Replies
100
Views
4K
Kleanbore
K
J
  • Locked
Peeping Toms?
Replies
13
Views
1K
Sgt Stevo
S
Back
Top