question about dealing with an armed perp...

[Hungry Seagull]

And how much damage will you have to clean up on a lost wallet with all the identification and cards in it?

How fast can you work the phones to shut off your bank cards, ATM cards tc.

How fast can you isolate and kill all other information in that wallet?

I dont even carry a wallet sometimes. Just the gun belt that has a very small place for a bit of funds or cash from time to time. They would have to really search it for it.

And a final thought, how long can you do to replace all of the contents in that wallet and regain your footing with new DL number, credit cards, insurance information with different policy numbers etc. So that everything that the bad guy took would absolutely be useless.

Sure it will be good not to have to shoot em, but you would be racing the clock, forget the cash.

 

[psyopspec]

mlgdeckard, I didn't see that episode, but from the brief description on wikipedia...

Myth: Holding a hunting revolver improperly can cause your fingers to be blown off by the escaping gasses emitted when the bullets are fired.

Results: This myth came to the MythBusters in the form of a picture that was too graphic to show on air. After testing the handgun and noting the power of the gun's recoil and the gasses that emitted from between the barrel and the chamber, Adam and Jamie built a pair of chicken hands to test the damage these gasses can cause to an unprotected hand. While Jamie's less anatomically-correct hand only suffered some minor flesh damage from the gasses, Adam's hand—specifically created to mimic the bone and joint structure of a human hand—had one finger blown almost completely off, confirming the myth.
____________

Was there something more specific to firing from a pocket? I've really never had a problem doing it, but in the winter when I've done it I'm wearing multiple layers and a light pair of gloves. The grip is pretty standard - no fingers over the cylinder gap per the Mythbusters segment.

 

[mljdeckard]

At the minimum, you will have cloth from your pocket and pants against the gap. Depending on the circumstances, you might have various parts of your anatomy against it. Remember, we are talking about a self-defense shooting here, where nothing goes as planned. You MIGHT be able to keep it away from your skin, or you MIGHT NOT. On the show, they were shooting an S&W X-frame, probably a .500. It blew clearly through bone. Now if you have a .38 or .357 snubby, I don't suppose it will be as nasty, but I think it's a question of the operating pressure of the rounds you are carrying, and the fit of the cylinder against the forcing cone. It would probably do more than leave a welt.

 

[Baneblade]

This is always a hard topic because you can never predict what the other person will do. I have to agree with the others that trying to draw and fire is a good way to get shot.

We train our officers to shoot from a hostage position. Hands on the head and standing or kneeling. They are supposed to quickly side step while drawing their firearm. However, it is highly likely they will still get shot. We are hoping that by moving it will be a peripheal shot or in the vest. This is only advised if the officer believes they are going to be executed. Life or death.

For a civilian (or anyone who is not in uniform at that moment) you have to judge if the person is going to harm you, or just take the wallet.

Cancelling credit cards, notifying MVD and the credit reporting agencies, and replacing $40 cash is MUCH easier than going through repeated interviews and a lawsuit. The dead (or injured) badguys family will try to sue you. It probably won't go to trial, but there is still a substantial effort involved on your part.

Of course, if you think the criminal is going to hurt you... move faster than you ever have before.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

Alternative idea -

I carry a "backup wallet." If I'm ever held at gunpoint for my wallet, I have an old one with two dollars, a shopper's discount card for a local grocery store, and an old ATM card that goes to an account I no longer have. I figure if I'm held up for my wallet, I give them that, and I'm out only two dollars and a ratty old wallet.

But seriously, most of the time trying to draw against an opposing trigger finger is a bad idea. There are some moves you can learn, however, to take a gun from someone who is pointing it at you, depending on how close you are.

Get training, stay alert, avoid getting hurt.

 

[YammyMonkey]

So it would be better to go through the hassle of the legal system than the hassle of getting you wallet contents canceled & replaced?

For the drop wallets- do you keep your real & your drop in the same pocket? Depending on the bad guy that might be something they would notice. There are some very smart & observant criminals out there.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Just the entire experience will be a hassle either way.

Imagine for a moment that so and so got held up and much valuable credit cards etc were lost.

That so and so may never had ever thought about the possibility of losing that stuff in addition to his money or even getting hurt for it. So and so may not be emotionally or mentally agile enough to understand the necessary... damage control that now must be done quickly.

A friend of mine was stabbed one day. Trauma care saved his life. That takes care of about 2 week's of everyone's putting thier life on hold and hold death watch wondering if he will live or die.

Then the police catches the bad guy that did the stabbing. Then months later came the trial. A criminal trial. It was to end with the bad guy walking free away from possible 25 years agg. assault with intent because they never proved intent.

We walked away from that trial with alot of collateral damage, families almost busted up and friendships broken in many places. Then again, the people that commited the crime found themselves right back into the same court charge for another crime later in the future against someone else.

People who do bad things and get into the system (Courts or Jail) have a way of never really being able to stay OUT as it were.

The assailant was lucky to have survived long enough to get to the trial. The people he hurt are the kind that makes bad guys face thier own form of justice in thier own way. But fortunately, these people also believed in the justice system, american way and the great courts to find him guilty and he will be properly punished for it.

Didnt happen because the public defender wisely stood her ground against a jury and made it clear that this man did not intend to do it. So.. free as a bird.

But never really free.... never.

But all of that was years and years ago. What good is it to me here?

3 days of watching 12 strangers listening to every little dot, crossed t's and particularly good/bad and the ugly about the whole sad event all over again.

The actual attack took minutes. The final verdict will take about... 7 months.

I much would prefer that the attack to be ended one way or the other and wrapped up that night.

See what I am getting at here?

We are supposed to have fast, speedy and accurate Justice in a Court of Law. It is my believe that such a thing for a simple robbery or shooting is no longer possible. It is easier to simply let it go, leave it to the LEO's pay the billing to the Hospital and move on with life. Much speedier than having to waste away for months waiting for that final verdict which may or may not close the proceedings.

In fact, if bad guy gets caught with a now stolen credit card... he's got his own set of problems brought on by others. They are more than welcome to it. Yea my name might be on that card and I might be called to testify. Easy peasy.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Waiting for the bad guy to make his way through the system beats going through the system yourself if you live in a place where self defense is considered as bad or worse than attacking someone.

Icing on the cake would be the civil trial because you killed Dirtbag Jr. who was going to cure cancer just as soon as he kicked his drug habit, got his GED, went to college...

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Heh. Wouldnt that be some cake.

Yer right, I prefer not to be the one in the hot seat as the assailant was. I think he lost about 2/3 of his original weight and looked in bad need of rest in a ... ward under a 72 hour hold when it was all over. His health degraded under the stress over the months. You could see it.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I also handled another case a few years ago where the pizza delivery guy was being robbed so he pulls gun and then shoots the perp. (my client was in the backseat of the the perps car)

If the Pizza guy ended up in the back seat of the perps car, he was going to die (at least that is what -I- would think). Better to go down fighting than like sheep.

 

[Deanimator]

For a civilian (or anyone who is not in uniform at that moment) you have to judge if the person is going to harm you, or just take the wallet.

And if you "judge" wrong?

What do you win if you're murdered?

What do you win if you're impaired for life, a vegetable unable to care for yourself?

I will always prefer to die on my feet fighting than on my knees pleading.

Being a murder victim does nothing for you. It doesn't even make you a better person. If it did, then Bugsy Siegel would be a better person than the Akron pizza shop owner who recently shot a shotgun wielding holdup man.

 

[Tex the Texan]

I guess our robbers have got more bold here depending on the situation. The personal robberies I have read reports on have the robber, stealing not only your wallet but jewelry, everything in your pockets and sometimes lifting your shirt to check for weapons.....So as the criminals get smarter(bolder) and more desperate....then so should we, with training, practice and resolve.

It is better to make a decision before it happens to you on what you would do.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Lifting shirt to check for weapon. That is a insult and probably cause me to throw the bad guy over the hip and draw.

That happens to be one of my hot buttons.... lifting shirt... only wife does that or a doc.