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Arms of the Libyan Revolution.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by cleardiddion, Apr 26, 2011.

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  1. cleardiddion

    cleardiddion Member

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/world/africa/21rebels.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1

    So, CJ Chivers is one of the few people that I've kept up with any sort of frequency over in the NY Times because he covers well, things that actually interest me.

    He covers in this article the nonstandard arms of the opposition fighters and I thought it was an interesting insight into something that's being debated but not really known by a lot of people.


    As a teaser:
     
  2. Gord

    Gord Member

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    Interesting, but the incessant hand-wringing tone was already old by Page 2. In every new conflict, the media continues to be incredulous and outraged at the occasional use of landmines and child soldiers, because...?
     
  3. RS14

    RS14 Member

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    I can see the reasons for being concerned with both in general, but I think the author's concern in this case is misplaced. Anti-armor mines are substantially different than anti-personnel mines, and are not prohibited under the Ottawa convention. And as for young Mr. Abdulgader... well, I don't want to be the one to try to make him give up his rifle. ;)

    The fighting in Misurata seems particularly incredible, and much less mobile than in other parts of the country. It's really shelled to pieces in large areas, and I'm impressed with the resilience of the defenders under fire. I'm also a bit surprised that airstrikes haven't been targeted against the loyalist artillery in this area to a larger extent. It sounds like they're dug in, but I thought that's why we had guided munitions...
     
  4. Gord

    Gord Member

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    As can I; I'm only saying that the article's tone conjures up images of an aristocrat somewhere sipping tea and muttering about "bloody savages." Mining is a simple reality of war, as is the use of child soldiers in a great many places; at least in this case Junior doesn't appear to have been press-ganged into service and hopped up on the local juju.

    Chivers would probably mess himself after hearing about the concept of bachas.
     
  5. cleardiddion

    cleardiddion Member

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    What interested me was the sheer number of types of arms at hand.
    It's one thing to have a revolution with Kalashnikovs and technicals (Toyota: APC of the Third World) with mounted anti-aircraft guns but relics without ammo or magazines?

    I'm an avid fan of milsurps and they certainly can get many different jobs done but I don't know about taking my Mosin up into the hills (if there were any in Florida) with a few friends and duking it out against modern military might. If anything, it shows to me the sheer tenacity of some of the people that are fighting over there, whether you agree with them or not.

    My buddy tagged me in this video (no, I'm not over there). Watch around 2:20ish, the guy running around with nothing but a hatchet in a firefight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iy4fsaD3Ug&feature=player_embedded
     
  6. Gord

    Gord Member

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    More common than you might think. Heck, even uniformed African soldiers sometimes go out with empty guns - I imagine the key concept there is that you're probably not gonna question whether that AKM is loaded when it's aimed directly at your face while the nice men at the roadblock check your papers.

    Our guys in the Middle East regularly get shot at with Mausers and Enfields even now, and I'm sure it's a much more common event in tribal disputes where each party knows the other isn't just going to duck behind the Humvees and call for artillery or air support.

    You might feel differently if you'd spent the last few decades under Gaddafi's rule; and if it's between a Mosin and a goatherder's cane, well... :)
     
  7. shotgunjoel

    shotgunjoel Member

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    That guy at about 4:15 almost walked in front of that RPG. That would ruin everybody's day.
     
  8. cleardiddion

    cleardiddion Member

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    Doesn't an RPG have a minimum arming distance?
     
  9. RS14

    RS14 Member

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    I think it's just a trick of perspective--look at his elbow in front of the RPG gunner moments before. It must have been pretty loud, though.

    It's unfortunate to see so many of them shooting unaimed, particularly when they're all firing over the wall.

    And wow; the man in the front-end loader at 3:28 has to be one of the luckiest people around.
     
  10. cleardiddion

    cleardiddion Member

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    Another interesting point that I have to bring up about the subject is thanks to something I heard on the radio.
    A couple of advisors that they UK sent over to the Libyans, supposedly solely for the organization purposes, were quoted as saying that they needed arms for the rebels in order for the people to be able to defend themselves.

    Now, I know that many of us either stateside or elsewhere aren't smack dab in the middle of an active warzone but it does make a lot of people seem hypocritical (big news). How is it that some are considering giving organizations/people that we have intelligence as clear as mud on tons of weapons/ammunition/training while screaming bloody murder for control of even the most basic of arms back home? It just doesn't make sense.
     
  11. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Chivers from what I've read is a pretty good guy, and whether or not THR members agree with his commentary, I think he has a pretty good finger on the pulse of the headaches facing political leaders. Some of us may recall the last time we helped a rag-tag, scrappy bunch of earnest Muslim rebels take up arms against oppression and what that turned into a generation later.
     
  12. Gord

    Gord Member

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    You and I are not in any position to overthrow a country and provide concessions, resources or alliances to whomever helped us do so. The Libyan rebels are. Same reason any world power has ever helped the little guys. The Taliban, the Contras, the Koreans, whatever; take your pick.

    Well, on the plus side they did send the dirty Commies home without their supper...
     
  13. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    If it is ok to get off-topic (?), writer/author CJ Chivers wrote a fairly new book on the history of the assault rifle. It illuminates the contrasts between the M-16 and AK-47 quite well.

    Some of you guys must have seen it or heard a bit about it?
    One small excerpt describes how some human heads were secretly procured for evaluating the damage from a 5.56 versus the 7.62x39.
    Some results of the 5.56 head impact tests were quickly hidden by Armalite, from what I remember reading.

    Mr. Chivers was a Marine captain, and I believe that he had a combat specialty.
     
  14. Bizane

    Bizane Member

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    The Book Ignition_Override is referencing is called The Gun. I got it for Christmas and enjoyed reading it.
     
  15. longshot7.62x51

    longshot7.62x51 Member

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    Mines are a poor mans army (the rebels i think would fall under a relitively poor group) the rpg 7 wile an cost efficent anti-armor weapon is not the most accreat. a mine AT placed on a main supply route stands to do more damage with less cost in frendly lives that senting a squad of guys agenst a T54-55 that have to get within 300 meters to fire there less than accreat RPG7s
    as far as children on the battle field the united states has a skewed view of this (you are a chiled until you are 18) this is something i have had to drill into my soldiers that just cause the kid looks like he is 14 yeasr old dosent mean he cant kill you with a burst from an AK just as dead as an 18 year old now is this right who am i to say but im sure there are 16 year old kids (and i consider most 18 YO i get kids) that can do a better job than some of the 18 yo ones i have gotten AFTER they go through basic training.

    Just my 2 cents after 10 years active duty sorry

    oh and im glad to see all thouse FN FALs the free worlds awnser to the AK 47 in the hands of rebals
     
  16. InkEd

    InkEd Member

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    Spell Check, punctuation and capitalization are strong allies in the war against difficult to read posts on the internet.

    However, I do agree with alot of what you mentioned. The use of the term "child soldier" is something IMHO that is (for lack of better word) "over-sensationalized" by the the media in the Western World. "Children" (typically males 13yrs or more) have fought along side adults for as long as there have been wars. They aren't the first choice (of rational leaders) but when fighting a difficult war people have to "explore their options, utilize all their assets, etc." to win battles.

    Ask some Vietnam War veterans about "children" with shinebox bombs and concealed
    grenades. Little "boys" in Germany didn't always politely hand their Hitler Youth knives over to the allies. In our own country, who do you think played the drums and carried battleflags against the British and later each other?

    A child on the battlefield with a gun IS just as dangerous as anyone else. In certain (macabre) ways, they can be MORE dangerous because they ARE smaller targets and have not "developed" fear, easier to manipulate mentally, fully "realize" the danger around
    them and want to "prove" their courage. It is a scary thought.

    In an ideal world, every soldier would be a sharp-witted, physically fit, well-trained 18yr+ individual fighting voluntarily. Howeve, in an "ideal world" there would be no more war or other bad things. Until that happens, we must accept and deal with things like children in war.

    -InkEd

    P.S. How many of you DON'T know of anyone IN YOUR OWN family/group of friends that didn't have at least one person "enlist early" (read as: lie about their age to join OR sign-up while still in highschool) within the last 65 years? Food for thought.
     
  17. longshot7.62x51

    longshot7.62x51 Member

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    sorry spelling and I have never got along
     
  18. MD_Willington

    MD_Willington Member

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    Not sure about the minimum arming distance, the rocket ignites after it travels about 10 meters & the warhead on the RPG-7 self destructs at about 920 meters..

    Went and talked with my Ethiopian coworker, he stated that there is a dial on the warhead that you can set if it is not an impact fuse.

    He used to fire them back in the day against Eritreans, that was before he ended up in charge of a T55 tank.
     
  19. metalman8600

    metalman8600 member

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    How hypocritical. The English should have overthrown their government 35 years ago in the same way the rebels are doing.
     
  20. FourTeeFive

    FourTeeFive Member

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    I'm still trying to figure out why our administration wants to give military weapons to "rebels" while at the same time wanting to restrict American citizens' access to any weapons.

    Although after reading this article it does seem to be a PR story to justify giving weapons to the rebels. Funny how the press helps the government that way...
     
  21. Ben86

    Ben86 Member

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    Interesting and amusing article.

    That has to be the most untrained, ill equipped, rag tag bunch of rebels I've seen in a long time. They waste more ammo, endanger themselves and yell alahu akbar more than anything. I think we should probably just stay out of it as it is most likely a more complicated situation than we think it is, as well as more than likely worthless to our national interests
     
  22. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    you know.....your right......they should all just stop fighting and go home........im sure everything will turn out just fine for them.

    they are untrained because they are not professional soliers....they are everyday people fighting for something they believe in....FREEDOME

    they are ill equipped because they are scrounging for what ever weapons they can find....because like most of the world, im sure they arent legally allowed to own firearms.

    those people are being proactive and fighting for a cause they believe in..they arent waiting for someone to do it for them.....
     
  23. Murphy4570

    Murphy4570 Member

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    M-Cameron, that does not mean we should get involved at all. It is an internal dispute, and America has nothing to do with it.
     
  24. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    i agree, im not arguing that.
     
  25. AethelstanAegen

    AethelstanAegen Member

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    I suspect a certain amount of that can be chalked up to "showing off" for the camera as well. That said, it sure looked like more than a few of them were a greater danger to their fellow rebels than Gaddafi's troops. Power to them for trying though, hopefully with some more experience they'll become more effective.

    That's in part a by-product of us dropping support or interest in the country after the Soviets left..leaving the friendly factions of the Northern Alliance to fend for themselves against the Taliban. That and allowing much of our assistance to be distributed by a foreign intelligence service whose interests did not always coincide with ours.

    Anyways, back to the OP, I found the picture of the rebel with the MP-40 without mag very interesting. Probably something a grandfather had picked up in the wake of the retreating Afrika Corps. I guess the logic behind bringing it along must have a lot to do with wishful thinking (maybe he'll run into another rebel with the matching mag).
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2011
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