Arrests & Citizens

[glummer]

Scenario: (this 1st part is based on a real incident, recently in the news)

LEO stops female driver for ostensible traffic infraction;

LEO informs driver that he will let her off if she performs sexual acts for him;

(now the hypothetical part)

Enraged drivers announces "You are under arrest! I am making a Citizen's Arrest! Put your hands up!";

LEO, startled, curses, and advances toward driver;

Driver, who is legally carrying, draws and shoots LEO at very short range.


Assuming there is no question of fact involved (everything happened in front of a high-quality security camera installation, or something equivalent), what is the legal situation?
Does an LEO have the right to resist a Citizen's Arrest?
Does it depend on the jurisdiction?
Is there any clear case law on such a situation?

 

[Preacherman]

Very dumb move on the part of the female motorist. Her response should be to demand that the officer call his/her supervisor immediately, and to notify him, aloud and in the line of sight of his/her car camera, that she is making that demand, and the reason for it. If she shoots the cop with no evidence as to why she did so, then the immediate assumption of any law enforcement officer (and probably any reasonable court) is that she did so to avoid being arrested. Puts her in an almost impossible situation.

You did say that this incident was (hypothetically) recorded. She can't assume that every word, and every action, has been recorded clearly, so as to remove any possible doubt. Under those circumstances, she'd be very foolish to make that assumption.

 

[Ferrari308]

I do not believe a citizen has the right to arrest a police officer. I do believe a citizen has the right to request a second officer or sargent to come to the scene.

 

[Ferrari308]

Chicago had a rash of imposter police officers on I-290 pulling over motorists and robbing them. The imposters had police lights installed under the grill of the car, and they had fake badges. The city told motorists if they feel threatened or if something is not right, to drive to the closest police station. Not long after that happened, a 60 year old grandmother was arrested at a police station for failing to stop when a police officer tried to pull her over. She drove another 7 or 8 miles to the police station where she was arrested.

So the answer is we're screwed either way.

 

[Biker]

Go with Preacherman's advice.
Incidentally, there's a female cop in my town that I hope will someday recreate this scenario with me.
Since I spotted her and after reading this thread, I'm gonna start popping wheelies in school zones.

Biker

 

[glummer]

If she shoots the cop with no evidence as to why she did so, then the immediate assumption of any law enforcement officer (and probably any reasonable court) is that she did so to avoid being arrested. Puts her in an almost impossible situation

In the real incident, it turned out the LEO had been doing this for years; lots of evidence, once it was investigated. So the driver's motive can be taken as apparently justified, as far as the arrest goes.

What about the LEGAL implications of the attempted arrest? Does she have, on paper, at least, the right to do it?
Does the LEO have a right to resist?

 

[Preacherman]

I know a couple of folks in cities where being stopped by police for spurious reasons is not uncommon. Let's just say that "being Black" is a valid reason for being stopped in the minds of certain cops in certain neighborhoods in certain cities, and leave it at that, shall we?

Anyway, they've taken to having a small digital recorder with them in their car. They switch it on (unobtrusively - they're not holding it in their hands or anything like that), and use it to record conversations with police. I know that in two specific cases, where there was no articulable reason for the stop being made, they used these tapes as evidence in their formal complaints to the police agency concerned. The tapes were used, in turn, in disciplinary hearings for the officers involved, and I understand that in both cases reprimands were issued.

In a situation such as you've described, it might not be a bad idea to consider some such option.

 

[Ferrari308]

aloud and in the line of sight of his/her car camera, that she is making that demand, and the reason for it.

Can the police officer turn the camera off?

 

[Preacherman]

What about the LEGAL implications of the attempted arrest? Does she have, on paper, at least, the right to do it?
Does the LEO have a right to resist?

Glummer, each state has its own provisions (or lack thereof) for a citizen's arrest. The answer to your question will depend on the legislation effective in that area.

As for whether she has a general right to arrest a law enforcement officer, there's the law, and then there's reality. She might indeed be permitted to attempt such an arrest in certain jurisdictions, but the weight of official and legal opinion is going to be very, very strongly against her, simply because she has been stopped by a cop. The balance of probabilities favors the cop - pure and simple. She'd be incredibly stupid or terminally naive to ignore that reality.

As for the LEO having a right to resist, again, we're dealing with legality versus reality. No LEO in that situation is going to come quietly, is he? Get real! Rights don't come into the realities of the situation. She will expose herself to grave danger of counter-arrest, prosecution for false and malicious allegations, and the use of deadly force against her if she tries a violent solution to the problem. The only reasonable way to handle it, short of a violent attack on her, is to ask for a supervisor, and/or head for the nearest police station to report it - and she should anticipate having a really hard time justifying her actions when she gets there!

 

[DKSuddeth]

Here in Texas, deadly force is authorized against law enforcement if your life is in imminent danger or grievous bodily harm is being committed.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Boy…

That’s one of those nightmare scenarios, kind of like being caught in the middle of two dueling tanks at close range.

I feel, personally that in the end after all the bonds were posted, the lawyers paid up and a jury got this case you’d walk free, but at what cost…

Cameras in patrol cars are wonderful things I cannot fathom doing my job w/o one for my protection from baseless complains, any officer who says that they are an unnecessary nuisance is trouble looking for a place to happen.

 

[ilbob]

I can't see that a citizen's arrest against an officer would ever stick. Even with a camera. If the camera evidence was telling in the citizen's favor, it would just disappear.

The bottom line is that basically the only things that restrain LE misconduct is their own personal honor and the control the political system has over them. The former works most of the time and the latter works sometimes when the former doesn't.

 

[El Tejon]

I think the question is not whether the LEO has a right to resist citizen's arrest but whether the citizen may use deadly force under those circumstances. Hmmm, very touchy situation. Would not want to be the motorist!

Ordinarily, depends on state statute, one may exercise citizen's arrest if:

1. felony committed in presence of citizen;
2. felony committed and citizen believes probable cause that other person committed the felony; or
3. misdemeanor involving breach of the peace in presence of citizen and arrest necessary to prevent continuation of breach of peace.

Remember, The System will ALWAYS protect its own. The prosecutor will be on the side of the cop--always. Silly bravado is feckless here. The motorist will lose one way or another.

I'd rather take the ticket, call my attorney, immediately subpoena duces tecum the traffic stop video, call the media, call the city attorney and in general cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

 

[Ferrari308]

I've been thinking about this the past half hour. I say shoot the SOB LEO. Here is why. You're going to die if you try and report the LEO. He'll kill you. The LEO can turn off the camera, he can do whatever he wants. If he is going to rape you, there is a very good chance he will kill you to cover his crime. Or you can try telling the LEO you have AIDS, maybe that will scare him away??

If a LEO will do this to you, then I bet he did it dozens of times in the past. Eventually, your name will be cleared.

 

[Ferrari308]

let slip the dogs of war.

Nice shakespeare quote!

 

[Low-Sci]

Shoot the LEO? Are you trying to get this thread closed?

That would be the stupidest shooting ever. If you're in a state that requires notification, and a predator who knows you're carrying pulls you over, you've got trouble that you will not get out of if you try to draw. He's holding all the upper hands.

Shoot a cop for a come-on and swearing? That's how its gonna play in court, think you'll win? Or maybe you're just not thinking.

DRIVE THE F*CK AWAY. YOUR FOOT IS A QUARTER-INCH FROM THE D*MN GAS PEDAL.

This would be a genuinely, truly, deeply idiotic shooting. Your ability to escape the situation trumps the caliber of your weapon against a goblin who's badass enough to prey on motorists he knows to be armed, has a better posture and position for a draw and shoot, and way, way more on his side than you can ever hope to have.

Drive away, and the cops will wonder why you bailed on a traffic stop. You can explain that. Shoot, and you have to make the cops understand why you shot their buddy. Good luck with that one.

Don't be stupid. Run away.

 

[El Tejon]

FWIW, a similar situation happened to a friend of mine when she was in law school in Indianapolis. A tall, attractive blonde, she kept getting pulled over after she went to the gym.

She made a report, which got her no where. The third time she marched into the prosecutor's office and demanded to speak with the elected prosecutor or she would hit the call button on her cell phone and talk to any and all television stations she could. A state/federal investigation was announced the next day.

She was listed as a witness (he had done this to other women) but never called as he pled guilty.

 

[glummer]

This is in Legal for a reason

I am fully aware that the scenario would be suicidally risky, and profoundly unwise; bad, bad tactics.

But this is not the Tactics forum.

LEGALLY, COULD SHE MAKE THE ARREST?? Or would she be breaking the law? That is what I'm trying to find out.

Put another way, would she have to depend on prosecutorial discretion, or jury nullification, to get off; or would there be a clear LEGAL defense?

More generally, can a citizen legally arrest a law-breaking cop?

 

[El Tejon]

Depending on the language of the state's statute, yes.

 

[Ferrari308]

LEGALLY, COULD SHE MAKE THE ARREST??

I don't think she could make the arrest.

But if she was facing the possibility of getting raped, she has every right to defend herself.

 

[Low-Sci]

Course she has a right to defend herself. Doesn't mean its gonna work if she chooses to defend herself by trying to shoot. Defense in this case is best rendered by driving away. You also have to think about whether a reasonable person would fear rape over a come-on of undefined specificity, a swear word in reaction to a citizen's arrest, and a step forward.

As far as legality goes, it does depend on the state. However, I wouldn't expect a citizen's arrest to stick on a purse snatcher, let alone a potential predator with a gun who isn't afraid of you, even though he knows you're armed too.

On the other hand, the point is kind of moot if the driver decides to pop the LEO because she loses her head, ie becomes "enraged." That'll work against you all the time, every time, especially if you happen to be armed. One more thing the prosecutor will have on you.