How does citizen's arrest work?

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NickBallard said:
If someone pick pockets you when you're walking out of a store and then you see the guy with your wallet, isn't that probable cause if you do a citizen's arrest?
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IMHO ... not even close.

How do you know it was the person holding your wallet who pinched it? In fact, how do you know it was pinched rather than you dropping it? My wallet disappeared in a grocery store in South America last year. In retrospect, I am 95% certain that I dropped it rather than being picked, but one never knows. I got it back a day later, devoid of money but with (thank God) everything else intact. It was picked up by a 9-year old senorita who was out walking with her nanny, and fortunately I had in it a slip of paper with my wife's cell phone number.

Oh, yeah -- someone had tried to use the ATM card, but they weren't able to hack the PIN before we cancelled that card.

My point being -- if I saw the little girl holding my wallet, would I have been justified in arresting her because I thought she picked my pocket? I didn't see anyone do so. I don't even know that I was picked.

I think you're looking for problems you really don't need.
 
Now let's say that instead of a day later, it was a split second after you felt your wallet being taken out of your pocket. Then you turned immediately around and saw a wallet in the hand of the person in back of you. The wallet is the same size, color, build as your wallet, with a little etch in the same place as your own wallet? Do you honestly just ignore it and then call the police? Didn't the Supreme Court rule that the police are not responsible to protect individuals, but instead society? What percentage of the time when someone reports a stolen wallet to the police is the thief caught and convicted and the wallet returned in the same condition? Then the thief finds another victim. That is one of my concerns, how do you get around that?
 
Nick, you have two threads going here, both asking essentially the same question. And the only reasonable answer you're going to get is, "It depends on the jurisdiction, and the circumstances."

In you hypothetical pickpocket scenario, you began by asking about probable cause for a citizen's arrest. Seeing someone holding a wallet that looks like yours (but you can't know whether or not it is yours without looking inside for your personal papers) does not establish probable cause for you to do anything beyond say to the person "Excuse me, but that looks a lot like my wallet. May I look at it, please?" The story would be different if you actually saw the person lift the wallet -- like if you see a mugger snatch some old lady's purse, pretty much anywhere you'd be okay to chase him down and snatch it back. The catch-22 is that you can use only the level of force necessary to get it back. If you grab it and he lets it go ... you're done. You can't proceed to apply a serious case of whup a$$ after you've recovered the property.

But if you did not personally witness the snatch, you don't have any probable cause.

The advice you have been getting is correct: ask a criminal practice attorney in the jurisdiction about which you have questions. There really isn't one answer.

Really.

Honest.
 
seeing someone steal your wallet and probable cause

Seeing someone holding a wallet that looks like yours (but you can't know whether or not it is yours without looking inside for your personal papers) does not establish probable cause for you
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If someone grabs your wallet from you, it's quite impossible not to know what's going on. I mean you can feel someone pulling out your wallet and a split second later see someone reaching out of your pocket with "your wallet" in their hand and feel that the wallet's no longer in your pocket. How can you not notice!? If one moment a woman is holding her purse and the next moment she feels someone violently pulling her purse and then looks at the guy and he's holding her purse, it's her purse! I read somewhere that even though police have more immunity when performing an arrest, citizen's have some immunity that they wouldn't have elsewise when performing a private arrest. For example, if you see someone walking up to a car in a parking lot and the guy has a mask on and is holding a crowbar, if you do a citizen's arrest and then later they find out that he wasn't really going to break into the car, you won't get into trouble because it was probable cause based on very good evidence. Also as another example I read from the same source, if you see someone late at night in the process of breaking a window to a store with all its lights off and you perform a citizen's arrest and then later the police find out that he was really the store owner, you won't get in trouble because what you did was reasonable based on the situation and probable cause (although I guess those are obvious situations). If someone's in the process of breaking into your car when you're walking towards it or they grab your wallet, I would think that's quite probable.
 
NickBallard said;
Also as another example I read from the same source, if you see someone late at night in the process of breaking a window to a store with all its lights off and you perform a citizen's arrest and then later the police find out that he was really the store owner, you won't get in trouble because what you did was reasonable based on the situation and probable cause (although I guess those are obvious situations).
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I don't know what book you're reading, but I wouldn't be taking legal advice from it. In the situation you just described, I could arrest and convict you for unlawful restraint and probably aggravated battery for any force that you used to make your arrest. Here's the scenario you just described;

NickBallard, THR member and all around good guy is walking down the street. It's 10:30 on a Friday night. He observes a man shaking the door on Smith's Jewelry and Watch Repair. As NickBallard closes on the man, he observes him wrap his hand in his jacket and break the glass out of the door. Being the good citizen, NickBallard reaches for his trusty pepper spray and confronts the man.

"You're under arrest!" says Nick. "If you move, I'll hose you down with this pepper spray."

"Wait a second." says the man standing in the pile of broken glass. "This is my store, I'm Jim Smith and I set the panic bar to lock and then walked out without my keys and heart medication. There is no locksmith in town and I have to have that medication. If you let me get my wallet I'll show you my ID."

"Nothing doing." says NickBallard. "You could be anyone and you could have an illegal .50 caliber machine gun in your pocket next to your wallet and you'd use going for your wallet as a ruse to get it and gun me down. Make one move and I'm spraying you."

"Look," says the man "I don't have time to deal with this. I'm late for my daughters wedding, I have to get inside and get my medicine and keys and call and get someone out here to board the door up until I can have it fixed. I wouldn't be standing here telling you this story if I were a criminal, I'd already have shot you if that was my intent."

"Look buddy, you're waiting here with me for the police." says NickBallard.

"I don't have time for this BS!" Smith says, getting angry. "I'm going in to get my keys and meds and call the carpenter. I'll call the police once I'm inside and they can arrest you for keeping me out of my own establishment. You're not a cop, you're just some wannabe who's looking to get a certificate from the mayor and have his picture on the six o'clock news. I'm going in and if you don't leave, or if you follow me in, I'm having you arrested."

The man turns and steps into the doorway. NickBallard steps back to give himself some distance and hoses the man down with his pepperspray. The man yells something that Art's grammaw wouldn't approve of and blindly charges NickBallard.

NickBallard eaily sidesteps him, trips him and sits on the man's shoulders to prevent his escape.

The police arrive having been called to fight by a passing motorist.

They identify Smith as the owner of the store. Smith is decontaminated and makes a statement. NickBallard is arrested for aggravated battery and unlawful restraint. He sits in jail until he is formally charged and bond is set at 10:30 am on Monday morning. Bond is set at $50,000 on the two charges. NickBallard has to come up with 10% ($5000) to secure his release.

As he's leaving the courthouse, the county process server hands NickBallard papers that order him into civil court. It seems Smith is seeking damages in the amount of 3 million dollars because the pepperspray has allegedly aggravated his heart condition and the stress of being peppersprayed and physically restrained from enetering his own place of business has made him unable to work or even go downtown after dark.

Yes, I'd recommend reading a book or two then running out and making citizens arrests based on what you believed to be probable cause...:rolleyes:

Jeff
 
Caught some yahoos tresspassing, but they were off the property before the law gets there. He tells me that if I know who they are I can sign the arrest warrant. Thats the way to do this. Don't try to take them down, just take a deputy or officer with you to get a warrant signed. They will pick them up. True you need to know who the person is, but many times you will know or can find out.

Obviously my situation was a non-lethal threat. The original posters scenario needed an immediate violent lethal force response.
 
Civilians can (if they so choose) merely "detain" suspects until the police arrive to arrest them. Police have qualified immunity and they usually have years of practice reading rights and properly handling suspects to avoid lawsuits. Police are unlikely to be successfully sued or inconvenienced for even a messy arrest. You are likely to be at least harassed even when things go perfectly. The legal system just doesnt protect civilians to the same extent that it protects on-duty officers, at least where taking people into custody is concerned.

Even if you are judgment proof, I would avoid formally placing anyone under arrest unless I was an on-duty police officer.

Also, I would not want to close to grappling range in an amateurish attempt to cuff someone without any practice.
 
Well obviously if you treat it that way that would be inappropriate! The police don't even act that way! "You're under arrest! Make one move and I'll spray you with pepper spray.... Oh I refuse to look at the proof you have that you're such and such." By the way, one time when my Dad just barely moved into the neighborhood he is in now, he was locked out and went to the back and someone called the police because they thought it was suspicious. The police didn't get into trouble for being out of place. One time I was walking around in a neighborhood for a job I had where a guy walked up to me and asked what I was doing and said it was a neighborhood watch. He didn't get in trouble, although looking back to the situation I wish I could have just smacked the looser (I mean that in a figurative way because he was a complete nutcase).

I don't know what book you're reading, but I wouldn't be taking legal advice from it. In the situation you just described, I could arrest and convict you for unlawful restraint and probably aggravated battery for any force that you used to make your arrest. Here's the scenario you just described;

NickBallard, THR member and all around good guy is walking down the street. It's 10:30 on a Friday night. He observes a man shaking the door on Smith's Jewelry and Watch Repair. As NickBallard closes on the man, he observes him wrap his hand in his jacket and break the glass out of the door. Being the good citizen, NickBallard reaches for his trusty pepper spray and confronts the man.

"You're under arrest!" says Nick. "If you move, I'll hose you down with this pepper spray."

"Wait a second." says the man standing in the pile of broken glass. "This is my store, I'm Jim Smith and I set the panic bar to lock and then walked out without my keys and heart medication. There is no locksmith in town and I have to have that medication. If you let me get my wallet I'll show you my ID."

"Nothing doing." says NickBallard. "You could be anyone and you could have an illegal .50 caliber machine gun in your pocket next to your wallet and you'd use going for your wallet as a ruse to get it and gun me down. Make one move and I'm spraying you."

"Look," says the man "I don't have time to deal with this. I'm late for my daughters wedding, I have to get inside and get my medicine and keys and call and get someone out here to board the door up until I can have it fixed. I wouldn't be standing here telling you this story if I were a criminal, I'd already have shot you if that was my intent."

"Look buddy, you're waiting here with me for the police." says NickBallard.

"I don't have time for this BS!" Smith says, getting angry. "I'm going in to get my keys and meds and call the carpenter. I'll call the police once I'm inside and they can arrest you for keeping me out of my own establishment. You're not a cop, you're just some wannabe who's looking to get a certificate from the mayor and have his picture on the six o'clock news. I'm going in and if you don't leave, or if you follow me in, I'm having you arrested."

The man turns and steps into the doorway. NickBallard steps back to give himself some distance and hoses the man down with his pepperspray. The man yells something that Art's grammaw wouldn't approve of and blindly charges NickBallard.

NickBallard eaily sidesteps him, trips him and sits on the man's shoulders to prevent his escape.

The police arrive having been called to fight by a passing motorist.

They identify Smith as the owner of the store. Smith is decontaminated and makes a statement. NickBallard is arrested for aggravated battery and unlawful restraint. He sits in jail until he is formally charged and bond is set at 10:30 am on Monday morning. Bond is set at $50,000 on the two charges. NickBallard has to come up with 10% ($5000) to secure his release.

As he's leaving the courthouse, the county process server hands NickBallard papers that order him into civil court. It seems Smith is seeking damages in the amount of 3 million dollars because the pepperspray has allegedly aggravated his heart condition and the stress of being peppersprayed and physically restrained from enetering his own place of business has made him unable to work or even go downtown after dark.
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Okay Nick, plain English.

You have a right to make a citizens arrest in accordance with your state's penal code.

You may or may not be beaten and/or killed during the process.

You will not be covered under civil liability and may or may not be sued for every earthly possesion you now have and will have.

You may or may not initiate the arrest correctly or be in the right and may or may not be arrested yourself on everything from Assault to Ag. Kidnapping.

Do it if you want to, but I think most everyone has been clear that it is a losing proposition in general.

Good luck.
 
Classes?

Are there any classes that you can take to train you in citizen's arrest? It just seems like the law would be more understanding if you plead "Not guilty by reason of citizen's arrest" than they would of "Not guilty by reason of self-defense".
 
As an example:

In North Carolina it work as such. . . .underlining is mine.

No private person may arrest another person (except as provided in North Carolina General Statute 15A-405). A private person may detain another person as provided in this section.

When Detention Is Permitted. A private person may detain another person when she/he has probable cause to believe that the person detained has committed in her/his presence:

1. a felony;
2. a breach of the peace;
3. a crime involving physical injury to another person; or
4. a crime involving theft or destruction of property.

Manner of Detention. The detention must be in a reasonable manner considering the offense involved and the circumstances of the detention.

Period of Detention. The detention may be no longer than the time required for the earliest of the following:

1. The determination that no offense has been committed;
2. Surrender of the person detained to a law enforcement officer as provided in subsection E.

Surrender to Officer. A private person who detains another must immediately notify a law enforcement officer and must, unless she/he releases the person earlier as required by subsection D, surrender the person detained to the law enforcement officer.

In NC I'd reccomend picking up "North Carolina Arrest Search and Seizure" by Farb published by UNC Chapel Hill, from the local community college bookstore if you really want to know. It's one of the books used by every BLET course and all LE academies. I'm sure similar exists in your location.

Speaking of rookie school, if you really wanna go out and arrest people and get paid peanuts to stick your butt on the line, go apply for law enforcement. OTOH, if you are happy doing what you do, I suggest letting a LEO do the arresting and just be a good witness unless your life or another's is in danger. It's not worth loosing your house, catching a charge, or getting hurt. The human vermin you put the Habius Grabbus on today mutates in to a "pillar of the community" months later when they go to court or take you to civil court. Do you really wanna give this guy your house or pay a wage garnishment for the rest of your days?

Edit: "It just seems like the law would be more understanding if you plead "Not guilty by reason of citizen's arrest" than they would of "Not guilty by reason of self-defense".

The law would not be understanding and a judge would probibly throw the book at you if you said that in court. Pleas are limited to "guilty", "not guilty" and "no contest". If I had reason to make an arrest and someone threw that in my face, they'd be "in contempt of cop" I'd get anal and upset and they'd go to jail even faster.
 
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Detained not arrested

If you subdue somebody out of legitimate, qualified self defense and hold them while the cops arrive you are probably on reasonbly safe ground, legally speaking. It is not an arrest but you are holding the SOB for fear of your life while the authorities arrive.

I would never, ever, ever use the words "citizens' arrest" as it will only viewed with scorn and ridicule. It presumes too much to be taken seriously. If you have a permit to carry you should ABSOLUTELY NOT engage in such behavior.
 
much variations among the states. Texas law provides that a citizen may arrest an individual if he actualy witnesses that person committing a felony or a breach of the peace as defined by the statute.

confinement is justified when force is justified but the person must be released when the confinement is no longer necessary to prevent harm. this is most applicable to restraining inmates of mental and custodial facilities.

the security guard training usually covers citizen's arrest while the concealed handgun courses generally do not.
 
Like Lance22 said, you might want to "detain" the person until police arrive, because you could be endangered by not. Or let's say that someone walks up to you and stabs you with a knife and then runs. Let's say the person who stabbed you is a complete stranger, you don't know where they live and so you can't sue them later for medical expenses. The police aren't going to cover your medical bills. It's one thing if you know that the police can find the person later, or if you go after him for vegence, but if you detain the person not for those reasons (is there another route that would be more effective?)? If you use pepper spray to detain the person because they refuse to stay, pepper spray does not cause any permanent damage. Or if someone's smashing in your car window with a crowbar and you don't know the person, you're not going to find them later because you don't know where they live. I've heard that in some states, you can only perform a citizen's arrest to stop them in the process of a felony, but that they make exceptions if wouldn't be able to locate them later and you reasonably believe that the police wouldn't find the person, such as they're smashing in your car.
 
Does someone have access to state laws?

I found a few places online saying "Utah law permits citizen's arrest, but explicitly prohibits deadly force. (See Chapter 76-2-403.)" My permanent residence is in Utah, but I will go to other states for a few months at a time. I was wondering what Utah law says.
 
Someone using lethal force against you (as you described a stabbing incident), you can legally only use lethal force against WHILE it's being used against you (or another immediately nearby). That's a horse of a different color from a basic "citizens' arrest". You can use your own weapon to stop him from the act itself. Once his use of lethal force actions stop, if you have the ability to "detain" him, you should and could do so immediately WITHOUT FURTHER ESCALATING THE SITUATION.
In most clear cut instances, where you DID NOT instigate or escalate the incident, I don't think any LEO/DA will hold you criminally responsible, initially, provided (once again) there are adequate witnesses to bolster your claim.
You'll still have issues to determine at law showing how it was a self defense issue, home/castle vs on the street (retreat or no?) opportunity, ability and jeopardy... and should you actually be stabbed, your time may be running short... in a hurry, physically.
Smashing of property is another issue totally unless said attack might cause lethal issues with innocent others (as in arson) becoming victimized.

Best bet, as always is to: A. Be prepared, B. Avoid unpleasant places and people, C. Know enough about the law and a lawyer to get you through criminal actions against you (and yours), and D. Be a good witness (description, unique features, etc).
Finally, for the most part, don't worry about property as much as worrying about life itself.

Dealing with crime is a big business and takes a lot of time and money. How much return on your investment of either are you willing to risk?
 
Texas law specifies that deadly force may be used to stop a fleeing felon if the felon has used or attempted deadly force while comitting the crime or if there would be great risk in delaying the arrest.

That's for civilians and police.
 
NickBallard said:
I found a few places online saying "Utah law permits citizen's arrest, but explicitly prohibits deadly force. (See Chapter 76-2-403.)" My permanent residence is in Utah, but I will go to other states for a few months at a time. I was wondering what Utah law says.
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So?

You have the citation ... go look it up and read it.
 
Jeff White's posts are worth a re-read.

In MY state, there are those statues that allow me to do certain things with a felon, including, not limited to arson, rape,...etc.

One would be Wise to read Repective States Code. Citizen's arrest? Humm you are a shopkeeper and yell out "Shoplifter". You better make darn sure that person did in fact "lift" - or you the Shopkeeper are in big trouble!

All sorts of new legal terms need to be looked into as to the LEGAL definiton and how your respective jurisdictions actually "define" them.


I prefer to cheat. It ain't cheating if it works - called ingenuity. See my goal is avoid Problem 2, no matter what.

I "observe" a person snatch and grab out of a store?

"Hello officer White, my name is Steve, a fellow about so tall and about so many pounds dresses in jeans, T shirt and tennis shoes ran out and hopped into "such and such" make model and color of car and was headed East on Any street and then took right [ south] on Some street. Yes I will stay here and wait for officers".

Maybe 10 minutes later..Officer White pulls up with someone in back seat in cuffs, and asks " this him, he had these items in his possesion.
Store tags match that of business I saw him run out of.
City Wrecker service has the car I saw whip by as well -"yeah, a car just like that one"

Heck it might be a week later, a pawn shop with the Alert calls Officer White, Officer White visits Pawn shop ...
Mr, White visits J.Q Suspect since he did sign the stuff at Pawn shop...
Either Mr. White calls me to come down or comes by with J.Q Suspect in car to ID, or comes by with a Polaroid, or...

Observe, Report, Document.

Some Security Guards - can only Observe, Report, Document.

Witness...I can do this. Heck in some ways I may have more, or less "authortity" that a Security Guard.

But I am not getting $8 an hour , and partial benefits being Mr. Citizen as they are...and for sure not getting the headaches and all Mr. White is as a sworn LEO officer...

Like I said " Mr. White - they went that-a-way". Or

"LawDog, head 'em up move 'em out , and cut 'em off at the pass"

...didn't want Dawg feelin' left out or nuttin'...



Steve
 
The site I read about someone breaking into a building and performing citizens arrest

This is where I found information on seeing someone walking in a parking lot with a mask on and holding a crowbar, and then it also used the example of someone breaking a window and it happening to be the owner (ok, sorry it wasn't a store, but he was the owner of the building):

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-citizens-arrest.htm

So it's not code, but it doesn't appear to be completely not credible either. I'm not worried about citizen's arrest in those situations, but there's where I found about that if anyone's wondering. It also says that citizen's arrest is highly inadviseable.
 
Don't get involved...

As a cop in a very violent area of southern california, my advice is do not get involved, with a few exception that I will get to in a moment. Be a good witness. I can't tell you how many times we get calls of this or that, where the person can't provide us a description other than "white guy with a shirt on." Get a thorough description from the top down, especially tats and license #'s of cars.

U never know who your going up against, even if your armed. With perception and reaction times and the 21 foot rule, the bad guy may shoot u with your gun, or stab you before u can react in time. Nothing is worth property.

The only time I would get involved is if someone entered my home or directly threatenned me and my family. A good way to get witness' is to start yelling gun @ the top of your lungs. That get's ppl's attention :) .

Citizen's arrest r a huge liability. Even if the crook is 100% guilty, that doesn't mean the great legal system will find him as such. Then, the crook owns ur house, because hey, the court says I'm not guilty or dropped charges, and that's the same as being innocent, right?!! ;) Plus, most people have no idea how to effecively articulate the violation that was committed. In a citizens arrest, you're the arresting "agent." Have u ever even picked up a penal code from the state you're from?
 
Nick,

If you want legal justification, you will find it eventually in the Penal Code if you haven't already. This may not provide civil justification though.

Learn the difference between "beyond a shadow of a doubt" and "preponderance of evidence".

Also, this is a very personal question, you don’t have to answer it here, but think about it…. When was the last time you were hurt by someone else, I mean really hurt and the first thing that went through your mind was “I’m going to lose this fight” and you were helpless to do anything about it?

It is an experience in terror few people could tell you about and fewer people still know what it is like, but if you get involved in something like this, it is a sensation you may soon experience.

The difference between cops and you is that cops have help on the way. No matter what, a cop can sit there and think “backup is coming just hold on for one more minute” but you, even if you call 911, backup is probably not coming. In Dallas, TX a 911 call takes on average at least 20 minutes to 2 hours. Can you fight for 20 minutes? I’m not in great shape and I get worn out in about 35 seconds or so. I work with a very young officer who is a boxer who hits a wall at 2 minutes of out and out knock down drag out fighting. So how long can you last?

Will police hurry up if the fight is in progress? Maybe, maybe they’ll get there in half the time, 10 minutes. But I can assure you of one thing, they are not going to come rolling for you like they will an officer in distress call. An officer in distress means everyone within earshot drops whatever the heck it is they are doing, lunch, writing a ticket, etc. and comes hauling butt, post haste, code red, blowing every light, every stop sign and doing everything it takes to get there in time. Simple fact is, you don’t have that kind of backup.

Moral of the story……..don’t do it.
 
With many years as a LEO, I advise against making a citizens arrest. Like
other's have said, your life could be in grave danger if the perp is not
arrested by police. Then, there is tons of paperwork for you to fill out;
and it better be correct~!:uhoh: Its just not worth all the BS.:D
 
From Post #1

They say, "I'm going to hurt you," and then you do what the police would do, try to diffuse the situation verbally and if that doesn't work pull out your pepper spray, give a warning that you'll use it, if that doesn't work then spray.
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Again, local jurisdictions and how that jurisdiction [ Judge / DA] actually define may differ from one locale to another.

I mean even here on THR we use the abbreviaton "CCW" in a loose manner.
Some states have Concealed Carry Weapons license / permits and within that jurisdiction is specified what is and is not considered a weapon. "Knives" have definitions and here is does not mean "dagger" or "dirk"...

Some areas it is CHL - Concealed Handgun License....what does these allow in YOUR Area?



Some areas may not allow Various Sprays, be they Mace, Pepper, and these definitions vary [ percentage of agent, container size...] and some places may not even Spray ( OC or Mace) in that bldg, or on that campus (school or corporate.

Hence the reason to actually nail down the specifics, AND get a flavor for the judicial system. The Statue may "say" but get a judge that feels "submitting" or "call 911 and let the police handle" is all a citizen is "supposed to do and you are not going to be in very favorable light, even with the Statues written and they are.

--
So a guy comes up and however I miss him - I totally blew the awareness bit. I mean I am snookered.
Maybe I get to spray him, Now I have a can of Mace with a dye in it, under UV it shows up. and then I miss BG #2, he makes himself known with a gun barrel to my head.

They get the wallet, the vehicle. My main goal is to get home with all my body parts and they still working. Next goal is NOT having Problem 2.

I call Officer Dawg, he and Officer White Show up...

" I was in fear of my life, and I do not feel very good...I will help best can, understand I have been thru a ordeal"

I share with officers my vehicle descripton, where I live as the BGs have MY house keys, and MY address when they look in my wallet, also in the vehicle for Registration and License...

"Oh crap officer, I have a house guest and am in fear of them being invaded!"

Officers allow me to call home and tell / introduce them to Officers, Officers are coming by to make sure they are safe and The Password to know the Plainclothes Lady is in fact a LEO officer, ( lady guest) or Male UC if a male member is staying the night---officers bring another lock with keys for the door---

Or Arrangements are made for locks and gets to be changed right that minute...
Or Officers we run them down at work...

In all this 'in fear of' and now "in fear of for another" , or "fear of getting my home robbed".

"Officers, you asked if anything else, I am sorry, my mind in fuzzy, I did get a shot of Mace with dye in it off before the 2nd gun put a gun to my head".

Bingo!

Probable cause, perhaps vehicle matching the make and model of mine , is speeding...
Probable cause of someone trying to use a key to enter a house next door to where I live [robbers mis read address]

Whatever and you know what ? Them UV lights for TB will show dye on a person. Granted the Officers are aware of what Mace smells like...still many jails have TB lights just as they do at the grocery store.

My house and guest are safe. Officer's call me and either they come get me, or bring by a set of Polarids...
"Officer, this is him, I never saw the 2nd guy".

Now to ME - that is a "Citizen's Arrest".

I made it home with body parts and they all work.

Problem 2 is not really Problem 2 as I am documented and did the best I could with assisting, under cirumstances. I may have to view a line up, be blindfolded only to hear folks in a line up speak the words BG#2 said to me. Still it is documented on my behalf as being the Good Guy and victim.

Evidence? Well there is my stuff they found on them, my vehicle with prints, and that dye on one....

...or if you want to play the TeeVee CSI Syndrome, the shirt in my vehicle is NOT my shirt after checking sweat...
The dye matches the dye 1) I got on my clothes spraying them , 2) my sweat from my shirt is not the same as his sweat.

The DA's office is on MY side...less of any Problem 2 worries.

Goes to jury...I have been on a LOT of jury cases, and have been foreman, and have been a witness.

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt
What a Prudent Person would do
Burden Of Proof

These and other "legal terms" get Defined a LOT in a courtroom...they even have these on 8.5 x 11 pcs of paper for the jury to make sure they understand these and any other terms, definitions of crimes, sentencing...Heck we had frigging notebook on a couple cases I was on ...Felt like a law student looking up stuff...and still had baliff go ask the judge "define more clear for juror #3 please".

"Mr. Steve what did you do then".
" I threw up and had to pee behind the bushes sir, I was scared to death!"

Judge, Jury , gallery...what do they see and hear? - Oh and you better well believe the "language' they are reading / paying most attention to is ...NON- Verbal. Not what I say...anyone says. It is not what is said , how said, -instead body language.

Now was I trying to be a hot shot wannabe cop?
Or a victim of a crime trying to stay alive best can?

"Officer's how did the victim appear when you arrived?"

"Your honor, the victim was obviously shaken, upset, emotional, both mad and shaking with fear, Officer Dawg and I were afraid he was going to go into shock. Throwing up help, and letting him relieve himself behind that building...well sir, he is human and deserves some self respect by not peeing on himself...
...he did the best he could, he wanted his lawyer, any lawyer, still he assisted best could, in fact surprisingly well once he had a smoke and we got him a coke from the soda machine at the store down the way...he was really afraid for his house guest...and getting his home robbed...".
 
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