Article claims "States with higher gun ownership have higher murder rates"

[Juna]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/guns_murders_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - American states where more people own guns have higher murder rates, including murders of children, researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health reported on Thursday.

The study, certain to provoke arguments in a country where gun ownership is an important political issue, found that about one in three U.S. households reported firearm ownership.

"Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes," said Matthew Miller, assistant professor of health policy and injury prevention, who led the study.

His team used data from a U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey of 200,000 people in all 50 states.

After dividing the states into four groups based on how many households had guns, the researchers found the states in the highest quartile of firearm ownership had overall homicide rates 60 percent higher than states in the lowest quartile.

In states with the most guns, firearm homicide rates were 114 percent higher, the researchers reported in the February issue of Social Science and Medicine.

More than 200 million guns are privately owned in the United States, according to the Justice Department.

In September, the FBI released 2005 figures showing violent crime had risen 2.3 percent nationally -- the first increase in four years.

And so the B.S. begins...... :banghead:

Don't these statistics fly in the face of all criminology research up to this point? Everything I've read states that more guns = less violent crime. I wonder how they're compiling their gun statistics. They must be counting illegal guns that were seized or something like that. (Not that this has any bearing on our IIA RKBA, but the antis will claim it does). There's obviously anti-gun funding behind this study.

This is like claiming that swearing is more common in areas where people exercise the right to free speech. That's what freedom is for. We use it how we want. Some will use it to do bad things; others won't. Yet again, we see more media garbage trying to eliminate the rights of the many for the mistakes of the few.

 

[WildeKurt]

Here's a link to the press release:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press01112007c.html

Here's a little background on the person leading the study:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/faculty/MatthewMiller.html

Hard to say if there's an agenda here or this is a legitimate study. I couldn't find any details of the study itself.

The Joyce Foundation, the study's benefactor apparently funds a lot of pro-gun control groups. Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

The Joyce Foundation has underwritten, in its own words, research into gun violence prevention since 1993. The focus of most of the funded research is on gun violence prevention. A review of the funded research shows that almost all of this research directly or indirectly supports additional restrictions on gun ownership.

The Joyce Foundation also is a principal source of funding to many gun control organizations in the United States. The most noteworthy of these is the Violence Policy Center, which received $4,154,970 between 1996 and 2006, and calls for an outright ban on handguns, semi-automatic and other firearms, and substantial restrictions on gun owners.

Gun rights activists accuse the Joyce Foundation of creating a multitude of phony "grassroots" organizations to create the impression of a swell of support for gun control, when, in reality, the organizations may consist of only a few dozen members

So it would seem the study starts with a bias.

 

[glummer]

WildeKurt

Hard to say if there's an agenda here or this is a legitimate study

I vote for agenda.
“In states with the most guns, firearm homicide rates were 114 percent higher”
Firearms homicides are usually committed with guns, so that tends to raise the rate in states with more guns.
Just like the Jew homicide rate is higher where there are more Jews.
Singling out firearms homicides, as if they are different from other homicides, is one of the main signs of an 'anti' agenda.

 

[Juna]

Good point. I knew there was some trickery I missed on my first cursory read through.

In any event, correlation does not prove cause and effect. If the study were accurate, it is equally possible that the reason states with higher murder rates have more guns is that people see a greater need for gun ownership for self defense as a result of the high murder rate, and that the higher murder rate is not a result of more guns.

Another excellent point. I wish the sheep and the media knew that correlation does not = cause & effect relationship.

 

[gego]

I bet a dime to a dollar that this study was bought and paid for by the anti's.

In any event, correlation does not prove cause and effect. If the study were accurate, it is equally possible that the reason states with higher murder rates have more guns is that people see a greater need for gun ownership for self defense as a result of the high murder rate, and that the higher murder rate is not a result of more guns. Another chicken and egg, which came first deal.

 

[220_Swift]

researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health

That is where the troubles with this article start.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

No control for race.

Remember the infamous study comparing Seattle and some Canadian city and the subsequent reversal of result when race was controlled as a factor?

 

[glummer]

220

Quote:
researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health
That is where the troubles with this article start

This is not a good sign either:

data from a U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

These are the guys who want to look at murder as a disease, which qualifies them to ‘prescribe’ remedies.

 

[Juna]

Firearms are used to kill two out of every three homicide victims in America..

I'm not sure about the validity of this statement, but I'll add to it that the FBI claims that only 40% of violent crimes involve firearms. The statement above attempts to show that firearms are more lethal than other modes of violence, although I'm not entirely sure that's true.

The survey found that approximately one in three American households reported firearm ownership.

If this were true, one would think we'd have nothing to worry about from anti-gun legislation since the politicians wouldn't want to alienate 1/3 of their constituents. The problem is that so many people are apathetic, and this statistic may or may not be valid (like most anti-gun statistics).

These results suggest that it is easier for potential homicide perpetrators to obtain a gun in states where guns are more prevalent. “Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes,” said Miller.

The results do not in any way investigate the cause or source of illegal guns utilized in violent crime. It merely draws an association between violence rate and guns, which, as someone mentioned above, does NOT show that guns cause higher violence rates. The opposite could just as easily be true--people own guns b/c they live in violent areas.

I know if I lived in the ghetto where people are mugged all the time, you can bet I'd own a gun. And in said violent ghetto, my child would be more likely to be murdered. Plus, a large percentage of "child" (I wonder if they're counting 26 y/o "kids" like in other studies) homicides are due to gang violence, not little Billy discovering Dad's gun and shooting someone with it (although the media would like us to believe otherwise).

Remember the infamous study comparing Seattle and some Canadian city and the subsequent reversal of result when race was controlled as a factor?

Got a link? I'd love to see that article.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

One question would be how did the survey determine gun ownership? Past surveys from the Harvard School of Public Health have included such wonderful methods as using gun deaths as a proxy for gun ownership. The resulting study then went on to trumpet that places with high gun ownership had the highest gun death rates - go figure.

The second thing I would note is that it says states with the most gun ownership have the highest OVERALL homicide rate? Could this be one reason gun ownership is more prevalent? Does gun ownership drive the homicide rate or vice versa? Also, the CDC counts justifiable homicide as homicide in their normal reporting, so it raises the question of how many of these are justifiable self defense?

Finally, I'd say that if the big point of your study is that a place that is chock full of guns has 1.14 gun murders for every 1 gun murder that a restrictive place like NYC or California has, those are odds I can live with.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

"States with higher illegal gun ownership have higher murder rates."

I fixed it.

 

[Dan from MI]

Joyce Foundation.....nuff said.

There's also 6000 NRA members in my county. We have one murder or so every two years. (last one was a knife too).

This is in a county of 175,000 people.

 

[gyp_c2]

...just a thought...

...seems to me it was the medical profession that was responsible for more deaths than guns awhile back...

...or did I dream that?

I couldn't find the individual study but there's certainly plenty of stats here...

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

 

[agricola]

Its a statistical study about firearms ownership; of course it has an agenda.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

http://www.guncite.com/CDCStats/us9794_fhomi.htm

The murder rate among white males, aged 20 to 24 (the highest murder age range), is 11.82 per 100,000.

This is almost twice the national average for all ages and races.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

According to the same chart:


The murder rate among black males, aged 20 to 24, is 133.34 per 100,000.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Gee, do you think that is a factor that could influence the study if it was not a controlled factor in the study?

 

[Zundfolge]

His team used data from a U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey of 200,000 people in all 50 states.

A few thoughts here.

• The CDC has been cooking the books against guns for some time.
• Is this another Kellerman type study that doesn't differentiate between lawful and criminal gun owners? How many of those 200,000 people surveyed were/are criminals?
• CDC and survey data but no FBI Uniform Crime stats or other law enforcement data?

Remember, criminals and gang members have guns in their homes too.


This is going to be like pretty much every other "damning" study released by the antis ... it makes the news, they make a false claim and once we in the pro-gun side get our paws on the data and methodology we are able to rip it to shreds with the facts but by then its become a "talking point" (notice how many people STILL quote Kellerman's original 43 to 1 lie as though its truth).

 

[mountainclmbr]

I wonder how they explain the statistics for the Washington DC murder rate?

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Using the logic in the study, one can only conclude there are a whole lot more guns in places like Chicago, New York City, Boston, and Washington, DC than are being "reported".

Woody

There is perspective and there is pretense. No amount of bombast or emotion can truthfully equate the two. One does not add validity to the other. Bombast and emotion added to pretense does not equal perspective. Reason, fact, and logic? That's a different matter. That will net you perspective every time. B.E.Wood

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Got a link? I'd love to see that article.

Yeah, it was another one by Emory's Kellerman. A Tale of Two Cities. The theme was how much Canada's gun control caused lower murder rates and how Washington's lax gun regulations lead to blood in the streets, with the conclusion that of course America should adopt Canada style gun laws. BUt there were a few things Kellerman overlooked in his effort to champion gun control. For one, Vancouver experienced a 26% jump in homicide after adoption of the gun control scheme!


http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Suter/med-lit/seattle.html


The punchline:

Kellermann and Sloan glossed over the disparate ethnic compositions of Seattle (12.1% Black and Hispanic; 7.4% Asian) and Vancouver (0.8% Black and Hispanic; 22.1% Asian). The importance? Despite typically higher prevalence of legal gun ownership amongst non-Hispanic-Caucasians in the US, [10] the homicide rate was lower for non-Hispanic-Caucasian Seattle residents (6.2 per 100,000) than for those in adjacent Vancouver, Canada (6.4). Only because the Seattle Black (36.6) and Hispanic (26.9) homicide rates were astronomic could the authors make their claim.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

A lengthier critique: http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Wright/seattle.van

 

[saltydog452]

Kinda curious about this...

but if folks like the CDC can put 'murder' and 'disease' in the same box of social ills, wouldn't that open a large can of worms that'd allow for a defense against a murder charge?

In some societies adultry or dissing, is punishable by death and that that death isn't considered 'murder'.

It would seem that there is a slow, but constant, movement for the social engineers to become apologists for deviant behavior by blaming (excusing) abnormal behavior on enviornment.

I dunno, but thats the way it seems to be panning out.

salty.

 

[WildeKurt]

The CDC and Physician Mentality

In general the medical community's way of treating problems and such is through external factors. To reduce automobile deaths, make cars 'safer.' Never mind about the drivers. People are considered too unreliable to have their behaviour modified such as teaching them to be better drivers to use my example above.

Same would go for murder. Do not treat the disease, just the symptoms. There are societal problems for the murder or crime in general. They can ignore these and just go after the symptom: Gun deaths. Never mind about, poverty, education, lack of opportunities, greed, etc.

 

[longeyes]

A bit of a perplex here considering that the highest rates of violent crime are clearly in the inner cities, and it's the cities by and large that have the most stringent gun control laws.

As one poster has noted, these people not only see guns as a social disease to be cured, they see people like us as carriers and centers of contagion.

This is collectivist thinking at its most high-falutin'. And, yes, of course they have an agenda!