As requested by moderator hso: Video of NYC ESB shooting 8/24/2012

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I can't fault the cops for stopping the threat

None of us are. We're faulting them for violating firearm safety rules and causing injuries to innocent people.

Isn't the 20/20 vision of hindsight a great thing?

Please keep in mind that the officers had absolutely no way of knowing that.

They knew he wasn't an active shooter, as witnessed by the face that he WASN'T SHOOTING. The gun was put away until they confronted him.

They were 10 feet from him, which means they had other options that did not endanger bystanders. They chose poorly, and now 9 people and the city are paying for their judgement.

Should these cops be in jail or swinging from a rope because they wounded three others? (I am NOT counting the ricochets and fragments.)

Ooookay........they were still injured as a DIRECT result of the officer's firing. What happened to all the preaching about accountability for every round fired? Are police exempted from this in your opinion?

No innocent man is dead because of anything the police did.

Neither police officer is to blame in any way, shape, or form for an innocent man being dead.

Not yet, anyway. Most likely they'll be OK, but infections from GSWs cause a significant number of amputations and deaths in the days following. It's too early to say there were no other casualties.

This, of course, doesn't even deal with the fact that those errant shots could just as easily have been immediately life threatening.

This is going to sound mighty callous, but that's just life. It is not the fault of the cops, it is the direct fault of the KILLER they were stopping from harming the public.

If I swerve on the road to miss a piece of plywood that fell off a truck and kill someone, do you think I'll get a pass for running over a pedestrian? I mean, if the piece of wood that forced me to swerve had been properly secured, that pedestrian would still be alive, so obviously it would be totally the fault of the owner of that piece of wood, right?

If we're going to start excusing damage/injury caused to person "A" by person "B" because of the actions of person "C", why stop there? Person "A" is also clearly at fault for being present. I mean, after all, they wouldn't have been hurt if they weren't there in the first place.....

I just don't understand the excusing going on here.
 
There is a double standard in society. Lets say this was an ordinary citizen effecting a citizens arrest then what would happen is they would be arrested for a whole host of crimes and Bloomberg would be on television speaking against vigilantism while the conservative minds on here would lecture us about being a "good witness". On the other hand the cops just get a pass and are heralded by Bloomberg as heros.

In this situation the cops should have followed at a distance. Approaching the gun man on a crowded street was the wrong thing to do. I want to see the bad guy brought to justice but not at the expense of others. If a cop chases down a murderer in his car and mows down 10 people in the process...right thing to do? Just my personal opinion.
 
Police are there to protect and serve the public.
I have absolutely ZERO expectation of being "protected" by the police.

On the other hand, if I'm not engaged in a violent crime, I have an ABSOLUTE expectation that they won't SHOOT me.
 
This was a bad day to be a cop in NYC and I hope the NYPD takes all the lessons learned here to heart.
Unfortunately, history tells us that they probably won't.

When it comes to use of deadly force, the NYPD keeps painting itself into corners via poor judgment, often aggravated by poor marksmanship.

Diallo, Dorismond, Bell, and now this. They just NEVER seem to learn.
 
WOW JUST WOW:what:

This was an extremely large screw up all around. What caused the BG to turn around in the first place? Then the officers hand was forced to act. A bad situation turned into a poor reaction/set of actions even at such a close range. Life is not fair and it can be brutal. Hope and pray to NEVER be in that type of situation but also pray as well for training to kick in if so forced. I agree that immediately drop to a knee to minimize personal target area/innocent exposure angle and two hand hold would have been best choice IMHO---However I was not an officer there that day.:scrutiny:
 
Perp had 10 wounds
Did they distinguish between entrance and exit wounds? Were they ABLE to?

You shoot at an assailant five times.

You HIT him two times.

The two bullets which strike your assailant penetrate completely.

To an observer, has he been shot twice or four times?

According to Ayoob, this has repeatedly been an issue in criminal trials.
 
We're faulting them for violating firearm safety rules and causing injuries to innocent people.
This seems quite naive. They had a duty to act, and act right then. Acting is not a "safe" choice, but it was the choice they had to make. We could wish and even demand that they have the training to perform that job better, but the officers had to act and had to act with the skills and tools they had at the moment.

Stopping a violent killer who is shielded by innocents is a terrible decision to have to make. It requires that the officer balance, in an instant, the risks of letting that person continue his acts and the risks of injuring and/or killing a bystander.

It is utterly devoid of legitimacy to say, "the safety rules must trump EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE consideration." If that was the case, no officer could ever fire a shot in a city. No soldier could ever fire a shot in combat. No citizen could ever fire a shot in defense of their own homes. Every use of lethal force is a balance of risks. The safety rules can be utterly paramount when on the target range, or when hunting. There is no greater threat or consideration than safety. When lives are on the line, there are risks which actually do outweigh the awful possibility of "collateral damage." We can try to mitigate them, but we cannot eliminate them. And the officer, or defender, or soldier must not be paralyzed by them.

They knew he wasn't an active shooter, as witnessed by the face that he WASN'T SHOOTING. The gun was put away until they confronted him.
So they were going to let him walk on? Maybe, possibly. That could, perhaps, have been a legitimate choice, but it also might not have been. Without sound we don't know exactly why the killer turned on them and drew his weapon. But the fact remains HE DID. Therefore, the officers had to shoot, and shoot right then, right there. Period.

They were 10 feet from him, which means they had other options that did not endanger bystanders. They chose poorly,
This seems to be a complete failure of understanding of lethal force encounters. A man has a gun pointed at you from 10 feet away. And your options are ... WHAT? :scrutiny:

and now 9 people and the city are paying for their judgement.
Yes. That's sad. But they're paying a price that "we" (society) can afford to pay. Letting that man continue a killing spree (as there was no realistic reason to think he would not do) would have been a far higher price.

Ooookay........they were still injured as a DIRECT result of the officer's firing. What happened to all the preaching about accountability for every round fired? Are police exempted from this in your opinion?
No. But see above, and my previous response. There was NO "SAFE" solution. They had to act. They had a DUTY to act. We (society) give them certain protection for the sad and painful consequences that might attend their actions when they are forced by criminals to react with violence.

This is going to sound mighty callous, but that's just life. It is not the fault of the cops, it is the direct fault of the KILLER they were stopping from harming the public.
If I swerve on the road to miss a piece of plywood that fell off a truck and kill someone, do you think I'll get a pass for running over a pedestrian? I mean, if the piece of wood that forced me to swerve had been properly secured, that pedestrian would still be alive, so obviously it would be totally the fault of the owner of that piece of wood, right?
Actually, yes, it is and will be partially the fault of that driver who did not secure his load. You don't get "a pass" but you very well may be asked to account for the propriety of the decision you made. Was hitting that piece of plywood a greater threat than the risk to the pedestrian? And, you are not acting according to departmental policy under indemnification for the consequences of your DUTY to do what you did.

If we're going to start excusing damage/injury caused to person "A" by person "B" because of the actions of person "C", why stop there? Person "A" is also clearly at fault for being present. I mean, after all, they wouldn't have been hurt if they weren't there in the first place.....
Let's not get silly. Look into the felony murder doctrine. If someone is doing something ILLEGAL and someone else dies as a result of that act or of the acts of others in stopping their illegal action, the criminal bears the guilt for all the harms which stem from his action.

We absolutely DO blame the criminal. We must! His act of murder, and then of threatening law officers with a firearm CAUSED the injuries to bystanders. That's just how it works.

Pretending that there was an option to just let the killer go ahead and shoot the cops (and anyone else he might have wanted to shoot) is absurd.
 
As to the police hit ratio, it is being reported that the gunman received "10 wounds". This is not to say that he was struck by ten bullets. Even if he was struck by ten bullets that does not mean those bullets didn't go on to injure others.

More will be revealed including, no doubt, an EPA study of lead pollution.
 
In this situation the cops should have followed at a distance. Approaching the gun man on a crowded street was the wrong thing to do. I want to see the bad guy brought to justice but not at the expense of others.

You're setting up the situation the way you THINK it happened. You really don't know. We don't even have sound in the video.

MAYBE the cops could actually have followed the man for miles before he reacted to them and drew his weapon.

Maybe they forced the confrontation in a bad spot.

Maybe he saw them in the reflection of a passing bus window and turned and drew.

That's impossible to say yet. Certainly a strategy decision that will be analyzed as the shooting is picked apart by investigators as they prepare their reports.

On the flip side, a man with a gun just murdered someone on a city street. Now he's heading off to...what? You don't know. Maybe this is a racial thing and he's heading to the next black/white/asian/whatever man he sees to kill him, too -- and the next and the next. Maybe he's looking for the biggest crowd on the street so he can go out with as many bodies around him as possible. You don't know. What you know is he just murdered a person and is moving and you have a duty to stop him.

We give law officers a bubble of latitude to act in ways beyond what a non-sworn citizen would be allowed to do. We MUST.
 
We give law officers a bubble of latitude to act in ways beyond what a non-sworn citizen would be allowed to do. We MUST.

I don't think nine innocents wounded by LEOs in crossfire is the kind of "latitude" the citizens of NYC had in mind.
 
Police are there to protect and serve the public.
I have absolutely ZERO expectation of being "protected" by the police.

There's a difference between YOU and THE PUBLIC. The police cannot be held liable that they did not protect you, personally, as an individual.

They do, however, have a sworn duty to apprehend the law-breaker, preserve the peace, and protect society as a whole against the unlawful actions of criminals.

On the other hand, if I'm not engaged in a violent crime, I have an ABSOLUTE expectation that they won't SHOOT me.
You can absolutely expect that no cop nor criminal will ever shoot you, and that you won't be clobbered by a bus, struck by lightning, or fall into a man hole. But those things can happen. Life is risky.

We have ways of providing restitution for such things when they are the fault of others, including when they are the result of actions of agents of the state/city acting under their lawful duty. That might not make you very happy, but it is the way it is.
 
I don't think nine innocents wounded by LEOs in crossfire is the kind of "latitude" the citizens of NYC had in mind.
Probably not. Perhaps they will step up to demand that the police allow armed murderers to simply walk away.

Perhaps they will demand that their officers all attend Gunsite for six weeks out of every year so they have better training of how to react under these sorts of situations. And that their training and ammo budget be increased to $15,000 per officer per year to accomodate that need.

We shall see.
 
You can absolutely expect that no cop nor criminal will ever shoot you, and that you won't be clobbered by a bus, struck by lightning, or fall into a man hole. But those things can happen. Life is risky.
I find it interesting that you would equate police CHOOSING to use deadly force with a lightning strike. That implies that like a force of nature, police action is beyond human control. In some instances, it seems to be.

I carry a gun for when private sector criminals might try to harm me.

When police harm me, unintentionally or otherwise, I'm just expected to eat that.

There is a non-zero chance that NYC will fight any claims, "zealously".
 
Sam, those Officers did exactly what they were trained to do and when they were forced to do it.
You have explained this is just about every way that you can. Some folks are just never gonna get it or accept it.
I for one am not goin to fault those Officers and i hope and pray that the city of NY doesn't either.
It truely saddens me that the Officers now have to carry this burdon in the hearts.
I hope that the wounded can realize that the Officers HAD to act, foregive them and even be thankfull that they were courageous enough to take action.
 
When police harm me, unintentionally or otherwise, I'm just expected to eat that.
No, and I don't mean to say that you should not be upset and demand restitution.

It is a terrible thing! The wounding of 9 people in NYC is a terrible thing!

It may not have been THE WORST thing that could have happened. The officers' acts, which ended up harming a few, may have saved many lives.

There is nothing GOOD here. No use of lethal force is "good." There are just shades of less bad.

There is a non-zero chance that NYC will fight any claims, "zealously".
That's a deep and difficult issue that is probably beyond our scope here. What will "we" (society, acting through the bureaucracy of our public entities) do to recompense our few citizens who were harmed? What should insurance pay for? Whose insurance? What payout is "right" and equitable? What payout is demanded by the plaintiffs' lawyers? How far apart are those two numbers?

In the end, NYC WILL pay the wounded persons some amount to settle the matter. And the wounded persons will move on with their lives having suffered the slings and arrows of chance.

It isn't terribly satisfying, or course, but life is dangerous and often unfair.
 
They do, however, have a sworn duty to apprehend the law-breaker, preserve the peace, and protect society as a whole against the unlawful actions of criminals.

So it doesn't matter how many innocents they hurt or kill in the process, so long as they get their perp?

It requires that the officer balance, in an instant, the risks of letting that person continue his acts and the risks of injuring and/or killing a bystander.

That's exactly the point here. In a situation like the Aurora theatre where you have a madman cutting loose dozens of rounds into the crowd, one can easily argue that the police have a duty to return fire in an attempt to stop him, even if they risk hitting innocents.

However, in this case, their perp was NOT firing off into the crowd. He was not firing at all, his gun wasn't even visible until they confronted him. No, we don't have audio or multiple viewing angles of the incident, so we can't (yet) know what was said or exactly why he turned on the officers. But I believe we can reasonably deduce that they made some poor decisions about when/where to confront him, and certainly acted with reckless disregard for the human beings behind and around him.

I think at this point we should just agree to disagree. I feel that the officers did not respond properly, that their actions directly resulted in injuries to 9 people, and that they should be held criminally and civilly liable for what they did.
 
So it doesn't matter how many innocents they hurt or kill in the process, so long as they get their perp?
Certainly it matters. As I said, it is a balance of risks. And we judge the actions of defenders and officers based on what a reasonable person would have decided based on what they could know at the time they had to decide.

But I believe we can reasonably deduce that they made some poor decisions about when/where to confront him, and certainly acted with reckless disregard for the human beings behind and around him.
And yet they may have ONLY acted because they were concerned for the lives of the people around him!

We just don't know enough to say that they made bad decisions. They may not have made the decisions at all, he may have forced the matter.

And we cannot look at the outcome (9 wounded, 6 only slightly) and say the end negates whatever decisions were made in the moment.

I think at this point we should just agree to disagree.
Always a possibility! :)

I feel that the officers did not respond properly, that their actions directly resulted in injuries to 9 people, and that they should be held criminally and civilly liable for what they did.
Well, unless they are proved to have acted in direct violation of department policy, they will not be personally held liable criminally or civilly, so that's rather a moot point.
 
I hope that the wounded can realize that the Officers HAD to act, foregive them and even be thankfull that they were courageous enough to take action.

They did have a duty to act. They were confronted with a fleeing felon who had just murdered someone with a firearm -- ending that scenario by apprehending him or, if it escalated (as it did) to effectively using deadly force is pretty much implicit in the mission statement of any law enforcement agency.

It's an unfortunate reality of police work that you routinely have to make split second decisions under stress that will then be dissected endlessly by lawyers and, in high profile cases, the public. There is validity in pointing out that until you were in that scenario, you don't know if you'd react any better, and this is very true. There is also validity in pointing out that any time any member of the public is injured by fire from LEOs, things didn't go well.

As I stated up thread, it's good NYPD and NYC have some deep pockets, because I'm pretty certain high end personal injury lawyers are ponying up to help the victims in this case reach deep down into them. I also expect we'll see experts on both sides of those trials doing something like a round by round dissection of NYPD's initial and yearly sustainment firearms training.

(As an aside, for various comments up thread -- as an LEO, I was trained to fire one handed while moving laterally against a threat at close range. So, in that sense, what the second officer is doing is within the scope of at least my agency's training program. On the other hand, my training also hammered home the issue of accountability for every round leaving the gun, and the idea that our firearms training was a tool kit and that every weapon and technique we were taught had to be assessed as to its appropriateness to a given scenario.

As far as this shooting goes, and its legal fall out, I suspect some things will hinge on whether the guy who moved laterally while firing was doing something he was trained to do under NYPD's POI, or whether he was doing something outside their training program. Obviously here I'm not talking about firing into a crowd, but about the technique itself. For what it's worth, I think the guy did a very good thing insofar as he started from a position of his partner masking him entirely to getting lateral dispersion on the gunman. Shooting while doing so is something lawyers will debate quite a bit, but unstacking against the threat was an essential action.)
 
In the end, NYC WILL pay the wounded persons some amount to settle the matter. And the wounded persons will move on with their lives having suffered the slings and arrows of chance.

It isn't terribly satisfying, or course, but life is dangerous and often unfair.
AGAIN, those bystanders weren't shot by "chance", but by CHOICE.

Those cops made a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to do what they did. Their drawing, shooting, and MISSING wasn't some random quantum event.

If I CHOOSE to drive on the sidewalk to avoid hitting a squirrel, it's not "chance" if I run over a person and kill them. It's a CHOICE on my part, with foreseeable consequences. The only "chance" is who happens to end up under my wheels. Did I MEAN to kill somebody? Probably not. They're still dead.

If they were inadequately trained, those above them made a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to run the department in the way in which they have, and with a rather long series of negative results.

Life is dangerous. You can make it a lot more dangerous, for yourself and for others by the CHOICES you make.

Somebody who loses an arm or leg because of the CHOICES made in this incident may not have the option of "moving on". They may just move over a cliff, especially if the city plays "hard ball". Were it to happen to me, I'd end up homeless pretty darned quick.
 
As I stated up thread, it's good NYPD and NYC have some deep pockets, because I'm pretty certain high end personal injury lawyers are ponying up to help the victims in this case reach deep down into them.
I'm also pretty certain that the victims will be excoriated as "money grubbing" and "opportunistic" by some of the defenders of the action taken, and its quality of execution.
 
10 wounds might mean 5 entry, 5 exit or 6 entry, 4 exit, or 10 entry, no exit. Or one through the arm, entry, exit, in to the torso, entry... who knows? We don't know that for sure yet, the official investigation is not done, and it's WAY too early to start weighing in on "hit %" on the officers.

Refer back to my lady with the pink bag photo on page #1. Refer to the people scrambling for cover in the video.

There was NO GOOD SOLUTION to taking a bad guy down in the middle of a crowded public street.

We do know they confronted an armed bad guy from a single direction, no immediate backup was available, they gave SOME sort of forewarning, bad shooting technique on the part of one officer (the other was fine, it appears, at least he had two hands on the firearm)...

Consider what happened right before this. Man was gunned down in broad daylight on a sidewalk. Citizen is following the bad guy talking to cops on a cell phone, vectoring them in, for some time before this encounter happened.

They had the benefit of TIME prior to this. Granted, not MUCH time. But SOME time.

Why was the decision made to apprehend with only two police?

Why was the decision made to apprehend from a single direction?

The command officer either was getting or giving conflicting information. Was there a delay in relaying the civilian's remarks on the phone to 911 to the officers on the ground? You bet your as there was.

Someone mentioned Mogadishu earlier - same thing applies here. Relaying the communication of the civilian following the suspect HAD to have gone through multiple channels before arriving at the boots on the ground. This results in a delay. Might have - MAY have - sent cops in the wrong direction, or in the right direction too late.

So when they finally DO eyeball him, there are only TWO police, they are coming from a SINGLE direction, and it was a surprise encounter.

Those two police did SOMETHING to tip the guy off - or... DID they? Maybe the suspect saw a pair of police AHEAD of him (we cannot tell), turned, and suddenly discovered two cops right on his ass? (Something though, tipped off the guy on the bench who dove for cover BEFORE a firearm was brandished).

Overall, there are FAR too many variables that we DO NOT know yet. How was the communications relay working? How many officers were vectoring in and from what directions? Did the officers tailing him force an immediate confrontation with an armed suspect WITHOUT backup? Did they assume backup was close by?

We just don't know any of this yet. We have a very NARROW window of view without audio, and without ANY backstory or knowledge of what was happening on a tactical level in immediate vicinity.
 
AGAIN, those bystanders weren't shot by "chance", but by CHOICE.

Those cops made a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to do what they did. Their drawing, shooting, and MISSING wasn't some random quantum event.
The cops do not have a broad CHOICE in such matters. They have a duty to act to stop a criminal.

They also have protection against the criminal and civil liability for those actions as long as they were following their department's protocol.

This has nothing to do with your traffic accident. We give broader powers and broader immunities to those whom we require to act through their sworn duty.

The department protocol may come under scrutiny and may change based on that. But I doubt it will. Based on what they knew in the moment, it appears the officers acted correctly.

Demanding that they be more accurate or control how ricochets and concrete fragments fly is peeing into the wind. There is only so much that can be demanded, and if the 10 for 16 number is factual, they did better -- about TWICE as good -- as the average for such situations.
 
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