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Assistance with challenging NICs

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Jdude, Feb 26, 2009.

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  1. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    Background info:

    I live in an RV. I have no physical address. All my correspondence goes through a P.O. box. My driver's license is through a state that I am no longer a resident of. My rv is parked at a military rv camp. Putting the nearest cross section and "go to spot x" is unacceptable as a permanent address.

    Form 4473 require a physical address. I cannot truthfully fill out a form 4473 with my last physical address, nor can I fill it out with my current grid coordinates. As such I am incapable of legally purchasing a firearm through a dealer.

    I have not been denied by the ATF ever in the past when I did have an address. I am an otherwise legal owner.

    I have not been turned down by the ATF in this instance, either. The two stores I went to refused sale or to even fill out the forms.
    I was denied by the stores based on lack of address - but the rule is the ATF's.

    Have I made the appropriate steps to obtain standing? Is it even possible? Am I, as a not rich guy, wasting my time?

    Sincerely
    Jdude
     
  2. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    Oh, one more thing. I have been in this state long enough that I count as a resident here. My military orders bringing me here also do that.

    This means I cannot legally buy a gun from a dealer in my previous state, either because I am no longer a resident.

    I, an otherwise legal purchaser, cannot legally buy a gun from a dealer anywhere in the United States.

    By virtue of no permanent address.

    Is this enough standing to sue?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  3. Hoxviii

    Hoxviii Member

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    Are you still a member of the military?

    In most states the residency/address requirement goes away if you show up with a military ID and a copy of your orders to be there. According to the feds once you're ordered to a state, you become a resident.

    For an address, I'd think you'd just use the physical address of the base ay which you're stationed.

    Have you tried just askng someone that has bought a gun under similar circumstances, i'm sure there are a couple since you're all in the same boat of being ordered someplace.
     
  4. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Standing for what? To sue the ATF or FBI? Good luck with that.:uhoh:

    I think you are getting the roles of ATF and the FBI confused. The Form 4473 (Firearm Transaction Record) is required by ATF to purchase a firearm from a gun dealer. The NICS background check is operated by the FBI.

    While the Form 4473 has places to write in your address, NICS does not ask this of the dealer when he calls in your background check.

    NICS will ask the dealer for the following information off your 4473:
    Last Name
    First Name
    Middle Name
    Cadence (Jr., Sr, Etc)
    Birthplace
    Height
    Weight
    Gender
    DOB
    SSN (optional)
    Race
    State of Residence
    Country of Citizenship
    Type of firearm (Handgun, Long Gun, Other Firearm)

    That's it. NICS doesn't ask anything about your street address.

    I'm an FFL and I wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole. Why? You are NOT a legal purchaser. You have lived in Texas long enough to be a resident, yet failed to get a Texas Drivers License within thirty days as required by state law. That's the first thing you need to do before you go looking for a lawyer to sue the FBI/ATF.

    For the Form 4473 you need a TX DL or government issued ID with photo. If that ID does not show place of residence you need to bring alternate documentation that shows place of residence. (ex. Utility bill in your name)

    A lot of folks have a "residential address" and a "mailing adddress". Even if you park in a different parking spot every night there should be an address for this RV lot. For example: "9000 Main Street #34" would be legal if that was your current residence on the day you filled out the 4473. If you change to "9000 Main Street #88" the next day and complete another 4473, you're going to run into problems because your new Texas Drivers License isn't current and the FFL should catch that. If the RV lot has a street address but doesn't have space #'s then just use the RV lot address.

    Do you receive utilities at the RV lot? That service address would be your residence address and the place they send the bill would be your mailing address.

    Or you could just buy a house. I hear Obama will take care of any payments you don't make.:D
     
  5. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    If this is accurate, then thousands of other military personel are also in violation of the law. I have to look into this. It was my understanding that with my military orders I was exempt. Again, I will have to look into this.
    Thanks for that. i was confused.
    Building 1234, fort somewhere, is the nearest building. The address is not on the monthly lot receipt. Others have run into this issue before for the purposes of a job. They have to go get a PO box so that they can do some sort of paperwork for their job. According to the on site employees, this place has no address. I could not get a DL anyways.
    No, I receive no utilities bills at this address. The lot fee covers all of these items (water, electric). All correspondence goes to my post office box. The mail to the main office also goes to a post office box.

    I own a house in a different state already and it seems that nobody is making any payments but me. Is there some form I should fill out? ;)

    Thanks.
     
  6. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    To make this clear if I had not

    I am not trying to defraud a dealer or just buy a gun. I could buy a gun, with a proper real address, by moving into the barracks for the night.

    I am trying to get standing to eliminate NICS.
     
  7. SHusky57

    SHusky57 Member

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    You don't have to have a state D/L if you have a Military ID and a copy of your orders. There has to be a physical address to your RV park, and then a lot number for where your RV is planted. When you order a pizza, what address do you tell them to go to?
     
  8. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    Pizza man - "Corner of A and B, I'll meet you there"

    I do have a spot number. If "spot a, fort here rv park" counts a an address, then I have to go with that. The street here has no name though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  9. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    I know that military personnel on orders are exempt from some DL requirements. BUT......you stated you are also no longer a resident of Colorado. If you aren't paying DL renewals to the state of Colorado do you even have a valid drivers license?
     
  10. ATW525

    ATW525 Member

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    As has already been stated, your address is not provided to NICS.
     
  11. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    it is still valid.it has been since I left colorado.

    A dealer will not accept a 4473 without it. That is a refusal of service denial. I have no beef with the dealer, they did the right thing. I explained everything to them from the get go. I was pretty sure that this would happen. I was hoping that this would provide me with the standing to challenge.

    The point is moot. I have discovered that there is an address, just that nobody knew what it was.


    Well shoot that plan in the foot.

    Any other ideas for challenging NICs?
     
  12. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    My son purchased several guns while stationed at Ft Hood, including a shotgun from Wal-Mart. The only DL he had at the time was an expired Illinois DL. His military ID and orders to Ft Hood were all the identification he needed.
     
  13. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    And I'm sure that one of those showed the permanant address that he submitted on the Form 4473. If you read the OP you will note that he refused to use his Colorado drivers license as verification for place of residence.

    Two different situations.
     
  14. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    I guess I am one of the few who actually feel the NICS system isnt' a bad thing as long as records are deleted immidiatly. I would focus more on challenging the infringments, not the one thing actually in place to keep ONLY criminals from having firearms.
     
  15. SHvar

    SHvar Member

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    He refused to use his permanent address from the house he owns on his Colorado license, and as I read his responces further, to me it sounds like hes trying to reach for a reason to either get a FFL dealer in trouble for selling him a firearm without proper info or ID, or seeing if its possible. The other possibility is that he will be turned down for the purchase if he is properly identified through the system for some prior reson, and knows this.
    I made a firearm purchase through a dealer in a different state while in the military without a single hesitation, took minutes.
    Note, on the form it says the more information you provide, the easier it is for you to clear the system and not be confused with someone else who has the same name. I think this guy has things to hide, the responces are far too cryptic.
    His only concern is to challenge the system, he doesnt want to buy, he doesnt want to provide enough info to the FFL to clear the sale, he just wants to challenge the system put in place to prevent criminals from buying firearms from a FFL.
    I know a few people who had to get help clearing their names after being turned down the first time in that system, all because they did not provide enough info to clarify which "John Doe" they were.
     
  16. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    I understand your concern. If I were a prohibited purchaser, I would also be a prohibited owner. If one of you wants proof, have a mod pm me and I'll pm him my name and the post MP office number, and that mod can report me. The post MP will take a peek at the post registration info and check my background (again, because they do it when you register), and either I'll stop posting verifying your suspicions or I will keep posting and show you in error.

    I have spent time and effort building my name on the net. I have no desire to throw it away on something stupid.

    My issue is with the check system. My issue is with the whole premise that I must ask permission before purchasing a firearm. I thought I had found standing, I had not.

    Any further questions?
     
  17. jester_s1

    jester_s1 Member

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    There's no other way around it. Federal law requires a physical address in the state in which you are purchasing verified by either a state issued ID or three months worth of utility bills. The purpose is so that if the local police needed to visit you about your purchase they would know where to come and find you.

    If a dealer were to ignore this requirement and get caught, he would be shut down by the ATF, and possibly face criminal charges. If you fudge on the form and get caught, you might also face criminal charges since falsifying the document is an act of perjury. This has nothing to do with your background. It has everything to do with what the law requires in filling out the 4473.

    So, to summarize, you can't legally buy a gun without a physical address and proper identification. That's the law and there's no way around it.
     
  18. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    Yup.

    The initial question is what of those people who didn't have an address in the first place. But since I do, my post and this thread has become without benefit.
     
  19. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Use this address

    Mr. Smith
    Address of Military RV Park & #spot number (where an apartment or suite number would usually go)
    Anywhere, Anystate 12345

    You can use your spot rental receipt for proof of address and orders for proof of residency.

    I suggest the FFL holders speaking up in this thread read their rule book. Making a soldier use an address they do not live at is perjury. When I was a soldier at Fort Carson, Colorado, I used my barracks address on the 4473.

    Also, by federal law, a serviceman's drivers license is valid for the entire term of their enlistment and for 30 days after separation, even if it has an expiration date prior to that. IOW, if John Soldier enlists and his drivers license expires 3 weeks later, by federal law, it's stil valid until John leaves the service + 30 days. This could be a period up to 20 years.
     
  20. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    And I suggest you go back and reread this thread, because no one told him to use an address he did not live at. On the contrary, Almost every reply had to do with his ACTUALLY LIVING AT THE RV PARK. :banghead:

    The OP stated that his Colorado address on his DL was no longer his residence. He stated he was uncomfortable putting down that Colorado address as it was not his actual residence.
     
  21. SHvar

    SHvar Member

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    If the issue is an address then why not use the RV park address or unit address, after all the unit address where you serve is legally where you are stationed, it should work. I found that it is easy to call the ATF and ask for the answer you need, they dont hesitate to help you.
    I wouldnt worry about challenging the system thats worked for all of these years and prevents criminals from buying firearms, and makes it easier than a waiting period to buy.
    I know a few people who have PO boxes, but list the actual physical address, as well PO box for required paperwork.
     
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