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Form 4473- Address Field

Discussion in 'Legal' started by LemmyCaution, Jan 20, 2013.

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  1. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    Can't remember off the top of my head- is the address field on a 4473 the physical address, or the postal address.

    I was in a local gun shop last week, and a gentleman (not me) was attempting to complete a transfer. The kid working the counter insisted that the PO Box address the gentleman listed on his 4473 was not legitimate- that he needed a physical address and the clerk would need an identifying document as proof of such address. In Vermont, one can use the PO Box as the official address on one's identification, and this gentleman had done so.

    This was a surprise to me, as every 4473 I've filled out in the last 10 years has used my PO Box address, and I have never had a problem. I have never purchased a firearm from this particular vendor, thus have not run into this problem with him.

    Would an FFL, or other knowledgable party care to chime in on what type of address is legit on a 4473, and whether or not proof of such an address is required to complete a transfer?
     
  2. brboyer

    brboyer Member

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    From form 4473:
     
  3. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Yeah it supposed to be physical. When I lived off the address system I actually filled in lot and block number and they accepted it! I had to bring a copy of the deed's property description for them.
     
  4. burk

    burk Member

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    As someone who works part time in the retail gun business, I can assure you that is must be a physical address. And it must match a recognized government photo ID. Not only is it illegal not to change your address on your DL (in MI) when you move. It's also illegal for me to transfer a firearm if your current address doesn't match your DL or state ID. I see more deals get rejected because someone failed to go to the Sec.of State and change their ID than any other reason.
     
  5. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Incorrect. A separate government issued DOCUMENT (does not have to be identification) must be presented to show the current residence address if the current residence address is not shown on the identification document. Might want to read the actual instructions themselves for the form 4473 the next time you work part time in the retail gun business.
     
  6. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    This is also my understanding. I'm not sure where this idea about the DL being illegal with a current physical address arose from.
     
  7. BlisteringSilence

    BlisteringSilence Member

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    I can't speak to any other state, but in Arkansas you have 30 days from the day you complete your move to get your address on your ID updated, or its no longer considered valid.
     
  8. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    NavyLCDR-

    Would a property tax bill constitute adequate proof, in your opinion?

    I have no e911 address. I live on land that is not adjacent to any road, thus no proper street address.
     
  9. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Member

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    Yes.
     
  10. burk

    burk Member

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    Sorry, from the 4473 the only exception is dual residence. If you reside in MI half of the year but have a FL drivers license for instance. As long as you have alternative legal documentation (like tax forms) from MI you can proceed. And the other exception is Armed forces dual residence. But if you are a resident of one State, you better have your current address on your DL or State ID. A valid state Photo ID that establishes CURRENT address is the only thing acceptable.

    From the 4473

     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  11. bamajoey

    bamajoey Member

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  12. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Member

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    No. You're interpreting the examples on the 4473 as specific exemptions. They are not. It's perfectly permissible, and in fact quite common, for a buyer to present an in-state driver's license as ID, but to present some other government-isssued document as proof of residency.

    Here in Maine, plenty of people have a PO Box address on their driver's license, which is inadequate proof of residency. These people need to produce something like a tax bill from their town, or a state hunting or fishing license, etc.

    Don't believe me? Here's the ATF's Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide on the matter:

     
  13. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    I always like the county and city area.

    In Virginia Cities and counties are legally equal.

    No city is IN a county, and no county is IN a city.

    I live in a county.
    I just fill it in twice with the same county and everyone seems satisfied.
     
  14. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I have my PO Box address on my driver's license. PA has many rural areas with no rural mail delivery service. Everyone in that Post Office's delivery area has PO Boxes or they get no mail.


    And I've always put my residential address on the 4473, which is not the address on my driver's license. They do not have to match. However, if challenged I would have to prove that's my residence. Now I've never had to, but I can use my tax bill which has my property address and the mailing address - the PO Box - that the tax bill was mailed to.
     
  15. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    One valid example of where you would be incorrect is Washington State. Washington State requires that you notify the Department of Licensing of a change of address, but they DO NOT issue another driver's license or sticker of any kind.

    Also the ATF disagrees with you. ATF rule 2001-5. Printed page 136 of Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide:
    http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

    ATF has received questions from
    licensees regarding purchasers who
    present a State-issued driver's license
    or other identification document that
    shows either an out-of-date residence
    address
    or a mailing address (such as
    a post office box) in lieu of a residence
    address. ATF has advised that
    these identification documents, standing
    alone, would not satisfy the requirements
    of the regulations
    implementing the Brady Act.

    It is ATF's position that a combination
    of documents may be used to
    satisfy the Brady Act's requirement for
    an identification document. The prospective
    transferee must present at
    least one valid document that meets
    the statutory definition of an identification
    document; i.e., it must bear the
    transferee's name and photograph, it
    must have been issued by a governmental
    entity, and it must be of a type
    intended or commonly accepted for
    identification purposes. ATF recognizes,
    however, that some valid government-
    issued identification
    documents do not include the bearer's
    current residence address. Such an
    identification document may be supplemented
    with another valid government-
    issued document that contains
    the necessary information.
     
  16. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    As a thought exercise, it would appear that the universal background check system proposed by Obama/Biden would on its face disenfranchise the homeless from their 2A rights.

    Not that the homeless are anyone's ideal poster children for a court challenge, but given the fact that the homeless are disproportionately the victims of violent crime, they should certainly have the means to protect themselves available.
     
  17. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Well they are disenfranchised from voting as well, aren't they?


    Anyway, the process is exactly as NavyLCDR described. If my driver's license does not show my residential address, I must provide other supporting documents that prove my residence.
     
  18. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    Yes, quite. Does that make it right?

    I've spent time technically homeless- no fixed address, despite full time employment and natural born citizenship. And I could not vote during those years. So I sympathize.
     
  19. eaglesnester

    eaglesnester Member

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    Form 4473 and second amendment

    I have to chime in here and bring up the subject: Where in the second amendment does it require an American to have a physical address? I am a US citizen landed in Canada. I have no legal US address, because of this one fact I have had my 2nd Amendment rights taken away from me when I visit the United States. I resent this and I am outraged that the elected officials are passing laws that go against the bill of rights and the USC.
     
  20. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Member

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    The law you're railing against was passed 45 years ago, in 1968. Your elected officials passed those laws a loooong time ago.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  21. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    So what do the folks who are homeless by design (i.e. full time RVers) do about a physical address? They do not have one
     
  22. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    The '68 GCA still allowed for private transfers. One does not need proof of residence address to perform a private transfer. If universal background checks are mandated, those without a residence address become disenfranchised.
     
  23. Birch Knoll

    Birch Knoll Member

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    And it still does.

    No one has passed such a law, so that's a hypothetical.

    For those who have no residence address, it is already an infringement that they cannot purchase a new firearm from a dealer.

    They don't really have access to the private market either, as even private transactions are restricted to persons who reside in the same state. It's just that in a private sale, the seller (a) may not know this, and/or (b) may not check.
     
  24. LemmyCaution

    LemmyCaution Member

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    The '68 GCA is not a stand alone law. It's passage incorporated it into 18 USC 922. 18 USC 922 is what will be amended by any pending legislation.

    Of course everything I am talking about is hypothetical. I am hypothesizing that the concrete proposal for universal background checks will completely disenfranchise those without a residential address. Which is another reason to oppose such legislation, and an argument why it is unconstitutional under existing SCOTUS precedent, both under the 2nd and 14th Amendments.

    But those without a residential address are not, in fact, prohibited from private transfers, because private transfers do not require a residential address. They merely require that the parties involved reside in the same state. As such, during the period where I lived in the Green Mountain National Forest, I did not have a residential address, but I did reside in the state of Vermont. Thus it was legal for private parties to transfer firearms to me. The same can be said for the homeless- they do not have residential addresses, but one can not deny that a homeless person who sleeps in a box in an alley in Burlington does in fact reside in Vermont, and is thus eligible to engage in private firearms transfers with other residents of Vermont.

    But you're just being difficult, aren't you?
     
  25. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    The part highlighted above is completely incorrect, in most states. The requirement for private sales, by Federal law, is that I cannot have any cause to believe or actual knowledge the person I am selling a gun to does not reside in the same state as I do. The definition of state of residence in Federal law is presence in a state with an intention of making a home there. I am not required by Federal law to verify the state of residence of the person I am selling a gun to.

    So, it is perfectly legal for me to sell or give a firearm to the guy who lives in a tent in the city park, without any identification required (in Washington state, and most other states) because as long the guy is actually living in the tent and not just camping, he is a resident of Washington.

    Now, if he is living in a tent in the KOA campground, and he is driving a vehicle with out-of-state license plates, I need to have a little bit more indication he is actually residing in Washington and not just visiting.
     
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