assuming gun ownership is still legal in europe..
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rick newland
Member
I spent 17 years in Germany and was a member of a German shooting club in the little town of Henschtel. Our club had three teams. Six months out of the year there is competition shoots between all the clubs. The season was split three months centerfire and three months rimfire. I would have to say that .357 S&W's was the most prevalent handguns I remember seeing. During the rimfire season you would see the expensive European .22 pistols.
Ninja42
Member
I own a CZ 75 SP-01 and a 6" S&W 686+. I love my CZ, and I will definately get more of those once my internship is over and I start earning real money. I cannot speak for anyone but danes, but we have some really heavy restrictions that we have to take into account when we go shopping for guns, which of course make our gun habits a tad diffrent from yours.
First, the tax on guns are heavy over here, and that makes guns a more significant investment to us than to most of you. A SIG P226 will cost you the equivalent of $1600 at my local gun shop, while a CZ 75 SP-01 will cost $1000, and a Sphinx Competition 3000 lands at a whooping $4700. $300-$600, which is my impression that most everyday carry guns in the US costs, would only get you a .22 pistol over here. That means that we danes are less likely to get an oddball gun just for the heck of it, and most of us go for things that you absolutely cannot go wrong with. Thats why I love CZ. A link to my local gun shop, divide all prices by 5.5 to get the price in USD.
Second, we have to abide by a long list of restrictions as to how large or small our weapons can be, so that they are too impractical for unlawful carry, while still small enough for competition. In Denmark, all guns have to be below 210 mm in length for them not to be deemed 'dangerously concealable', which means that many standard sidearms, which are usually around 200 mm in length, become illegal. The most common way around this problem is to have the gunsmith install a longer match grade barrel in the gun, which again adds to the already high price. Examples of this: CZ 75b, S&W M639, H&K P7. This restiction is somewhat new, and many Danish gunshops have unsellable guns in their inventories that they cannot get rid off.. if you ever drop by on vacation, you might be able to find a good deal on one of those guns.
And last, for now at least, the calibers we have avaliable to us are very limited. As a rule, you cannot buy a gun of any caliber that are not considered a hunting caliber or used in competition shooting in a gun club of which you are a member. Again, this means that many gun stores have weapons in their inventory that are virtually impossible to get permission to own. I have yet to meet one person who had a permit to own a .44 mangum for instance.
And on the notion of 1911s, sorry, but they are viewed as outdated, overly expensive and unreliable over here, and are generally thought of as something that only you americans like because of its significance to your history. I too fail to see why this gun is so great, perhaps I will never know, but I would take a GLOCK or a CZ any day. That said, american revolvers are pretty much considered to reign supreme over any others.
First, the tax on guns are heavy over here, and that makes guns a more significant investment to us than to most of you. A SIG P226 will cost you the equivalent of $1600 at my local gun shop, while a CZ 75 SP-01 will cost $1000, and a Sphinx Competition 3000 lands at a whooping $4700. $300-$600, which is my impression that most everyday carry guns in the US costs, would only get you a .22 pistol over here. That means that we danes are less likely to get an oddball gun just for the heck of it, and most of us go for things that you absolutely cannot go wrong with. Thats why I love CZ. A link to my local gun shop, divide all prices by 5.5 to get the price in USD.
Second, we have to abide by a long list of restrictions as to how large or small our weapons can be, so that they are too impractical for unlawful carry, while still small enough for competition. In Denmark, all guns have to be below 210 mm in length for them not to be deemed 'dangerously concealable', which means that many standard sidearms, which are usually around 200 mm in length, become illegal. The most common way around this problem is to have the gunsmith install a longer match grade barrel in the gun, which again adds to the already high price. Examples of this: CZ 75b, S&W M639, H&K P7. This restiction is somewhat new, and many Danish gunshops have unsellable guns in their inventories that they cannot get rid off.. if you ever drop by on vacation, you might be able to find a good deal on one of those guns.
And last, for now at least, the calibers we have avaliable to us are very limited. As a rule, you cannot buy a gun of any caliber that are not considered a hunting caliber or used in competition shooting in a gun club of which you are a member. Again, this means that many gun stores have weapons in their inventory that are virtually impossible to get permission to own. I have yet to meet one person who had a permit to own a .44 mangum for instance.
And on the notion of 1911s, sorry, but they are viewed as outdated, overly expensive and unreliable over here, and are generally thought of as something that only you americans like because of its significance to your history. I too fail to see why this gun is so great, perhaps I will never know, but I would take a GLOCK or a CZ any day. That said, american revolvers are pretty much considered to reign supreme over any others.
mljdeckard
Member
Obenbart, jer har ikke skud en 1911. Consider that among competitive shooters in America the only ones who don't use 1911s are those who have sponsorship from a company that doesn't make them.
I know a man who lives on a farm south of Roskilde, who owns several rifles, including a suppressed Ruger 10/22, but he won't go through the process of getting permission to own handguns. I know a man in Horsens who is an officer in the reserves, he showed me his M-49. I knew many gentlemen out on farms who have old double-barrel shotguns, I did a lot of cleaning for them.
I know a man who lives on a farm south of Roskilde, who owns several rifles, including a suppressed Ruger 10/22, but he won't go through the process of getting permission to own handguns. I know a man in Horsens who is an officer in the reserves, he showed me his M-49. I knew many gentlemen out on farms who have old double-barrel shotguns, I did a lot of cleaning for them.
Beagle-zebub
Member
Okay, invoking competition guns is a little unfair. STI 1911s sometimes don't have many of the characteristics that make 1911s anachronistic in comparison to newer guns coming out of Europe: single-stack magazines, barrel bushing, and frames that don't extend the whole length of the slide.
The appeal of the 1911 in America seems to be that it can be carried cocked-and-locked, that it is chambered in .45 acp, that it has that sweet trigger, that it is nice and heavy, that it is surprisingly flat, and that it is a rich part of our martial history. Europeans don't have anywhere near as much interest in the .45acp cartridge, cannot carry concealed weapons (making the flatness irrelevant), and (Norwegians notwithstanding) have none of their history tied up in the 1911. They generally don't seem to think of pistols as military combat implements in the same way Americans do--dating back at least to Walker's Texas Rangers, we've used pistols in general combat to a degree that is at least "modest," whereas European militaries seemed to have them more as the mark of a gentleman and a tool for the occasional tasks of self-protection and firing-squads; for this reason, the few pistols that they have become enamored with in the course of military service are going to be chambered in less abruptly lethal cartridges like 9mm, are going to be light (in part because they won't shoot .45acp), and won't use a trigger or a safety system that puts a premium on usability at the possible expense of safety. Given the lesser emphasis of pistolshooting and correspondingly less training, it's probably wise to use a supposedly more idiot-proof trigger and safety system like on the Glock; likewise, it's easier to become competent with 9mm Luger than it is .45acp, given the short time historically devoted to pistol training.
Being the American that I am, I have a soft spot for hardcore handguns, and thus like the heavy-hitting and accurate .45acp cartridge and the sliding trigger associated with the 1911; additionally, I like how 230 grain subsonic .45s can take a silencer without requiring any change in ammunition. I could do without barrel bushing and frames that don't extend the length of the slide, just as I could go for a double-stack magazine.
The appeal of the 1911 in America seems to be that it can be carried cocked-and-locked, that it is chambered in .45 acp, that it has that sweet trigger, that it is nice and heavy, that it is surprisingly flat, and that it is a rich part of our martial history. Europeans don't have anywhere near as much interest in the .45acp cartridge, cannot carry concealed weapons (making the flatness irrelevant), and (Norwegians notwithstanding) have none of their history tied up in the 1911. They generally don't seem to think of pistols as military combat implements in the same way Americans do--dating back at least to Walker's Texas Rangers, we've used pistols in general combat to a degree that is at least "modest," whereas European militaries seemed to have them more as the mark of a gentleman and a tool for the occasional tasks of self-protection and firing-squads; for this reason, the few pistols that they have become enamored with in the course of military service are going to be chambered in less abruptly lethal cartridges like 9mm, are going to be light (in part because they won't shoot .45acp), and won't use a trigger or a safety system that puts a premium on usability at the possible expense of safety. Given the lesser emphasis of pistolshooting and correspondingly less training, it's probably wise to use a supposedly more idiot-proof trigger and safety system like on the Glock; likewise, it's easier to become competent with 9mm Luger than it is .45acp, given the short time historically devoted to pistol training.
Being the American that I am, I have a soft spot for hardcore handguns, and thus like the heavy-hitting and accurate .45acp cartridge and the sliding trigger associated with the 1911; additionally, I like how 230 grain subsonic .45s can take a silencer without requiring any change in ammunition. I could do without barrel bushing and frames that don't extend the length of the slide, just as I could go for a double-stack magazine.
Ninja42
Member
I also think that part of the .45 ACP calibers lacking popularity here in europe is that 9mm luger is considered a serious heavy hitter. 6-7 years ago, our police still carried PPKs in .32 ACP, and when they upgraded to USP9s there were a lot of public debate on wether or not the police needed stronger guns at all, as many people feared that the upgrade would spark an arms race with the criminals, and because people felt that the .32 was deadly enough already.
While it is true that pistols as sidearms in the millitary are mostly viewed as a symbol of power and influence rather than an actual weapon, I dont think that the general oppinion is that pistols are not serious weapons. The fact that we cant carry our weapons in a way that make them useful for self defence dosent mean that a pistols qualities as a carry piece is not taken into consideration either, as most people (myself included) are aware that it might become relevant in times of peril. I dont count being chambered in 9mm as a weakness though, and if I were to carry a full size handgun I would rather carry my SP-01 in DA mode than a 1911 cocked and locked in SA mode.
I have in fact shot two 1911s, namely a S&W in 9mm and a Series 70 in .38 super, but I cant say that I was impressed with their triggers at all. The S&W scattered my shots all over the target like a shotgun blast, and the Colt felt like it was assembled wrong, though I was told that its loose fitting was a design quirk. I can imagine that a 1911 feels better in .45, and that there are far nicer 1911 pattern guns out there that do the platform more justice, but I might never find out. Competitative shooters over here use SIG P226 almost exclusively, and here in scandinavia we see quite a few P210s used in competitions too. I dont think that I have ever seen a 1911 end amongst the top contenders in any competition.
Excellent danish by the way, mljdeckard
While it is true that pistols as sidearms in the millitary are mostly viewed as a symbol of power and influence rather than an actual weapon, I dont think that the general oppinion is that pistols are not serious weapons. The fact that we cant carry our weapons in a way that make them useful for self defence dosent mean that a pistols qualities as a carry piece is not taken into consideration either, as most people (myself included) are aware that it might become relevant in times of peril. I dont count being chambered in 9mm as a weakness though, and if I were to carry a full size handgun I would rather carry my SP-01 in DA mode than a 1911 cocked and locked in SA mode.
I have in fact shot two 1911s, namely a S&W in 9mm and a Series 70 in .38 super, but I cant say that I was impressed with their triggers at all. The S&W scattered my shots all over the target like a shotgun blast, and the Colt felt like it was assembled wrong, though I was told that its loose fitting was a design quirk. I can imagine that a 1911 feels better in .45, and that there are far nicer 1911 pattern guns out there that do the platform more justice, but I might never find out. Competitative shooters over here use SIG P226 almost exclusively, and here in scandinavia we see quite a few P210s used in competitions too. I dont think that I have ever seen a 1911 end amongst the top contenders in any competition.
Excellent danish by the way, mljdeckard
UKarmourer
Member
Well lets see, in the UK, without a really really good reason, you aren't getting a pistol (dunblane incident saw to that)
I am lucky enough to be stationed in Germany, and now I have completed my jagdschein course I can legally own a pistol (for the dispatch of game)
the Germans seem to favour the 9mm, the pistol range I go to its around 5 euros per 50 rds cheaper for 9mm than .45
although, I fired a .45 acp colt 1911 for the first time a few weeks ago, I preferred the recoil to that of the 9mm, less snappy I thought!
They must like .45 a bit though, the range I go to is run by a custom gunsmith who charges several thousand euros a time for one of his .45's
I am lucky enough to be stationed in Germany, and now I have completed my jagdschein course I can legally own a pistol (for the dispatch of game)
the Germans seem to favour the 9mm, the pistol range I go to its around 5 euros per 50 rds cheaper for 9mm than .45
although, I fired a .45 acp colt 1911 for the first time a few weeks ago, I preferred the recoil to that of the 9mm, less snappy I thought!
They must like .45 a bit though, the range I go to is run by a custom gunsmith who charges several thousand euros a time for one of his .45's
El Tejon
Member
Depends on the country. I saw a lot of American firearms in Western Europe. Germany, if it was centerfire, it was 9mm, the Browning "High Power" being very prolific.
In Spain and Italy, I saw everything--a Kentucky pawn shop of pistols.
In Spain and Italy, I saw everything--a Kentucky pawn shop of pistols.
Halo
Member
Ninja42 illustrates an interesting point. In Europe the 9mm is considered more than adequate, yet a significant portion of the American shooting community dismisses it as a puny, barely adequate cartridge at best. These people are almost uniformly the same ones who tout the 45 ACP as the Hammer of Thor.
So really, how is it that police forces and shooting communities on opposite sides of the Atlantic draw such different conclusions about the same cartridge? I think the reasons are varied and have less to do with technical performance than other concerns.
6_gunner
Member
I thought handguns were completely banned in England. I've heard that even the British Olympic shooters had to go out of the country to practice. Of course, I've been wrong a couple of times before.
Beagle-zebub
Member
To answer Halo's question, I would say that police in America have a whole bunch more first-hand experience shooting people than do their European counterparts. (This is not a knock on either group.) British people didn't even carry guns until very recently, correct? And given that people in Europe are so much less used to seeing a gun, it is reasonable to think that the presence or wielding of one ends many altercations by force of the overblown notions of their power, thus precluding the necessity of actually shooting someone. Criminals in America are probably much more used to having guns pointed at them, or at least living with the threat of being shot, or killed by any other means.
And, to really stretch, it's conceivable that since European medical personnel get so few gunshot wounds, they are less experience in their treatment, ultimately making smaller European cartridges just as effective as their European counterparts.
And, to really stretch, it's conceivable that since European medical personnel get so few gunshot wounds, they are less experience in their treatment, ultimately making smaller European cartridges just as effective as their European counterparts.
El Tejon
Member
6 gun, not exactly, firearms are in different categories, like our Title I and Title II. The "really good reason" allows .uk greater control over people (the point of "gun control" of course).
As well, pistols are not in the prohibited class if they have certain barrel lengths
As well, pistols are not in the prohibited class if they have certain barrel lengths
In Sweden u can own handguns for competition or collection, if u have a "collector" licens for a gun u can't shoot with it without special permit from the police for that perticular occasion.
In Sweden we have a point system. If u have a gunsafe (u must) u can own guns for maximum 20 points (1 rifle, lever, pump, semi and bolt action cost 1 point, 1 handgun or revolver cost 2 points and one full auto cost 4 points), u can have a bigger safe with a higher protection grade (min 1000 kg) then u can own guns for 40 points, if u want more guns u have to have a vault with direct alarm to the police (expensive) Then u can own guns for 400 points. It's not possible to own guns for more than 20 points that u can shoot with (Hunting, competition). For hunting u can own a total of max 6 rifles.
If u want to own guns for hunting u must get a "hunting license" That meens that u have to take a few written and practical tests.
If u want to own handguns(pistols/revolvers) u must join a gun club and be an active member for 6 months, then u can buy a .22 caliber, after another 6 months u can buy a "big bore" gun IF u can produce enough "gold" series ( 5 shot 25 yrds 46 points x 3 / year minimum). Every gun license is for a 5 year period then u have to apply again for that same gun.
If u want to keep weapons for collecting u have to be a member of the "Swedish society of weapon collectors"
It's EXTREMELY hard to get a license for full auto and then ONLY for collection.
I have a G19, S&W K-38, Colt scout frontier and a few rifles
/Niklas
In Sweden we have a point system. If u have a gunsafe (u must) u can own guns for maximum 20 points (1 rifle, lever, pump, semi and bolt action cost 1 point, 1 handgun or revolver cost 2 points and one full auto cost 4 points), u can have a bigger safe with a higher protection grade (min 1000 kg) then u can own guns for 40 points, if u want more guns u have to have a vault with direct alarm to the police (expensive) Then u can own guns for 400 points. It's not possible to own guns for more than 20 points that u can shoot with (Hunting, competition). For hunting u can own a total of max 6 rifles.
If u want to own guns for hunting u must get a "hunting license" That meens that u have to take a few written and practical tests.
If u want to own handguns(pistols/revolvers) u must join a gun club and be an active member for 6 months, then u can buy a .22 caliber, after another 6 months u can buy a "big bore" gun IF u can produce enough "gold" series ( 5 shot 25 yrds 46 points x 3 / year minimum). Every gun license is for a 5 year period then u have to apply again for that same gun.
If u want to keep weapons for collecting u have to be a member of the "Swedish society of weapon collectors"
It's EXTREMELY hard to get a license for full auto and then ONLY for collection.
I have a G19, S&W K-38, Colt scout frontier and a few rifles
/Niklas
Fish828
Member
interesting thread. very educational.
Patrick Henry
Member
rick newland said:
I'm living in Germany now and I'm really starting to miss my guns.
I just found out there is a Schützenverein in the town in which I live, but somebody told me the shooting societies are actually more about drinking than shooting. What I would like is to just be able to go shoot some rental guns once in a while (is that allowed in Germany?). Although I'd like to get perhaps 1 or 2 pistols it seems owning your own gun is a very difficult process.UKarmourer said:
I've heard the hunting course takes about a year, is that true? That is far too long as I will be here at the most 18 more months. If you don't mind, is that one of the Waffenbesitzkarten which you obtained or is that a different kind of permit. Thanks.
El Tejon
Member
Especially the air gunnery.
Extreme Edd
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The law on pistols in the UK is: The are not completely banned as such, but are as good as.
People can and do poses them, but not "normal" people. The license for normal guns comes from the local police. The license for pistols (and machine guns) has to come from the home office (part of the government).
I'm currently going through this process to poses prohibited weapons for theatrical supply and it is an "interesting" process.
Theatrical supply is one of the few reasons you will have them as well as Mill/LE supply. Or a servent of the crown... armed police, millitary etc. Some people do have them allowed for dispatch of wounded animals such as vets. And some dear stalkers have them too.
People can and do poses them, but not "normal" people. The license for normal guns comes from the local police. The license for pistols (and machine guns) has to come from the home office (part of the government).
I'm currently going through this process to poses prohibited weapons for theatrical supply and it is an "interesting" process.
Theatrical supply is one of the few reasons you will have them as well as Mill/LE supply. Or a servent of the crown... armed police, millitary etc. Some people do have them allowed for dispatch of wounded animals such as vets. And some dear stalkers have them too.
PhrankKastle
Member
When I was in Italy (about 25yrs ago) .32 acp was a very popular civilian round and the 9x21 beretta 92s were just coming out then, cant trust civilians with military 9x19 rounds. There was also a fair amount of .45s amongst the gun owners I knew there as well. Polizia and Carabinieri carried beretta 92s and every police car in Naples anyway had a beretta M12 SMG seemed to be 1 smg for every 2 officers.
Fishman777
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1911s...
Hi Ninja,
Not all Americans understand the 1911 "movement". I sure don't. New 1911 pistols aren't what they used to be. Many of them are *very* costly and *very* unreliable. To be perfectly honest, I've heard some older shooters assure me that the old 1911s aren't what they used to be either. In otherwords, 1911s were never as reliable as people make them out to be. Many might disput this, and that is fine. My intention is not to trash the 1911 platform and start a fight. 1911s are like "sacred cows" to many American gun owners. It's generally not a good idea to say anything bad about those guns. Many people believe that they are the best hand guns ever made. I don't agree with that belief. I believe that 1911s are beautiful guns, but I only buy guns for their performance. 1911 accuracy can be outstanding, but I'm more interested in buying guns that will fire when they are supposed to. In a life or death situation, I'd rather have an American-made revolver, a Sig, an HK, a Glock, a Beretta, a CZ, or even a springfield XD.
Hi Ninja,
Not all Americans understand the 1911 "movement". I sure don't. New 1911 pistols aren't what they used to be. Many of them are *very* costly and *very* unreliable. To be perfectly honest, I've heard some older shooters assure me that the old 1911s aren't what they used to be either. In otherwords, 1911s were never as reliable as people make them out to be. Many might disput this, and that is fine. My intention is not to trash the 1911 platform and start a fight. 1911s are like "sacred cows" to many American gun owners. It's generally not a good idea to say anything bad about those guns. Many people believe that they are the best hand guns ever made. I don't agree with that belief. I believe that 1911s are beautiful guns, but I only buy guns for their performance. 1911 accuracy can be outstanding, but I'm more interested in buying guns that will fire when they are supposed to. In a life or death situation, I'd rather have an American-made revolver, a Sig, an HK, a Glock, a Beretta, a CZ, or even a springfield XD.
My father is a 1911 fan. Owns several of them. Personally I prefer my Sigs and Glocks. I also like my S&W .357 magnum revolvers.
Though I own a 45 caliber Sig P245 I actually have come to prefer the 9mm in the past few years. As I've gotten older (I'm 40 now) I'm not so enamored with POWERFUL CALIBERS as I was in my younger days.
I like the 9mm for it's lower recoil and the fact that it's a little cheaper to shoot. I still like the .357 magnum, but I shoot alot more .38 special these days. Like 9mm it's a little more affordable and easier on me and my revolvers.
Though I own a 45 caliber Sig P245 I actually have come to prefer the 9mm in the past few years. As I've gotten older (I'm 40 now) I'm not so enamored with POWERFUL CALIBERS as I was in my younger days.
I like the 9mm for it's lower recoil and the fact that it's a little cheaper to shoot. I still like the .357 magnum, but I shoot alot more .38 special these days. Like 9mm it's a little more affordable and easier on me and my revolvers.
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