I need a small gun that I am able to carry in the summer. The only new guns I have (92fs, Duty P-09, & 75b) are too large to get away with. The only compact handguns I have are a Para P12 and a Manurhin PP. I take both to the range often and they seem to do just fine there. Is there a general age range or round count that the gun won't become as reliable. The P12 was bought buy the previous buyer in 1995 and said he had well over 100k rounds through it. The PP's serial number puts it's manufacturing date between 1952-1953. I have no idea on the history but it is an amazing shooting gun and even with the risky rim locking 32 acp I've never had an issue with the few hundred rounds I've put through it. Should these continue to just be range guns and expect them to fail on me soon, or should they still have some street life left in them?
At what age does a handgun become too old for a ccw?
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Ed Ames
Member
If they have the features you need (including safety features) there isn't really a "too old". Nor a general round count. Some guns may last 1,000 rounds, others may be good for 1,000,000+.
There can be "too worn out", and, "too hard to repair/replace if it breaks or is confiscated", but those aren't strictly age.
I know of one gun (not mine) that was built in 1917 and is still being carried. I'm sure there are people carrying older here on THR, though probably not daily.
It really comes down to choosing something you are comfortable and safe with.
Welcome to THR!
There can be "too worn out", and, "too hard to repair/replace if it breaks or is confiscated", but those aren't strictly age.
I know of one gun (not mine) that was built in 1917 and is still being carried. I'm sure there are people carrying older here on THR, though probably not daily.
It really comes down to choosing something you are comfortable and safe with.
Welcome to THR!
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
.32 ACP rim- lock was never an issue in the larger guns like the Walther PP, early Colts, etc.
They have enough slide weight to overcome it.
It has only become somewhat an issue with the new tiny guns like the Kel-Tec P32 and such without enough slide weight to knock them over each other.
The other thing is modern JHP ammo.
It is loaded shorter then FMJ-RN the guns & magazines were designed for, so that leaves room in the mag for rounds to slide foreword in the mag and get in front of the one on top of it.
Were it not for that, rim-lock would not even be possible.
rc
They have enough slide weight to overcome it.
It has only become somewhat an issue with the new tiny guns like the Kel-Tec P32 and such without enough slide weight to knock them over each other.
The other thing is modern JHP ammo.
It is loaded shorter then FMJ-RN the guns & magazines were designed for, so that leaves room in the mag for rounds to slide foreword in the mag and get in front of the one on top of it.
Were it not for that, rim-lock would not even be possible.
rc
Onward Allusion
Member
It's a tool. Would a 75 year old hammer be any different than one made today using the same design and materials if the 75 YO hammer was cleaned and oiled every now and then since its manufacture?
BSA1
member
It is my general policy to replace the springs in any used guns I acquire. Springs are a very cheap way to ensure (or maybe improve) reliability. My first source for replacement springs is Wolff. Be advised though replacing springs (usually the firing pin spring) on some guns is a PITA so proper tools is a must.
As noted older semi-autos may only be reliable with FMJ'S. Whether this is a disadvantage depends on personal opinion. I prefer FMJ in 32 & 380 caliber semi-autos.
As noted older semi-autos may only be reliable with FMJ'S. Whether this is a disadvantage depends on personal opinion. I prefer FMJ in 32 & 380 caliber semi-autos.
Sunray
Member
"...Is there a general age range or..." No. A 1911 made in 1911 will function just like it did the day it came out of the factory if it has been maintained properly. So will an 1873 SAA. Some firearms are junk right out said factory. However, if any firearm functions properly on a range, there's no reason to think it won't anywhere else.
bigfatdave
Member
When collectible value makes simply buying a new gun make sense
Or, obviously, when it isn't reliable.
Other than that, no. No round count or year count.
I'd drop my Colt 1903 or Savage 1907s into a holster and carry them without a second thought if I didn't have something else handy. All three are over 100 years old. I should get holsters for them just on principle.
Or, obviously, when it isn't reliable.
Other than that, no. No round count or year count.
I'd drop my Colt 1903 or Savage 1907s into a holster and carry them without a second thought if I didn't have something else handy. All three are over 100 years old. I should get holsters for them just on principle.
btolle
Member
About 1967 I was an Exec Officer in a training unit. We had am M16 blow out the side plate. After adding up the average number of rounds per day with the range Armorer we found that it had fired something over 500,000 rounds before it failed.
Accuracy and wear are more important. I have a Win 94 built in the early 70's and it is absolutely reliable and extremely accurate.
Btolle
Accuracy and wear are more important. I have a Win 94 built in the early 70's and it is absolutely reliable and extremely accurate.
Btolle
Even the widely publicized "need" for spring replacement is mostly a myth, promoted of course by the makers of replacement springs. I have guns well over 100 years old that I have little doubt would work just fine if I needed to use one for defense. (I have others, a lot newer, that I KNOW are totally unreliable and that I would never think of using for serious purposes if I had any other choice.)
If we include non-cartridge guns, I have 1851 Navy's, 1849 Pocket Models and 1860 Army's that have never failed to fire. I have several Model 1842 pistols that are as reliable as any 9mm Glock, and make a lot bigger hole; they have always fired when I take one to the range.
IMHO, if a gun starts out as reliable, it will stay that way, unless tampered with. If it starts out unreliable, it will not improve unless the cause is something simple that can be fixed and won't happen again.
Jim
If we include non-cartridge guns, I have 1851 Navy's, 1849 Pocket Models and 1860 Army's that have never failed to fire. I have several Model 1842 pistols that are as reliable as any 9mm Glock, and make a lot bigger hole; they have always fired when I take one to the range.
IMHO, if a gun starts out as reliable, it will stay that way, unless tampered with. If it starts out unreliable, it will not improve unless the cause is something simple that can be fixed and won't happen again.
Jim
Arkansas Paul
Member
Broken record here. No such thing as too old if it is in good working order and has been properly taken care of.
Welcome to THR friend.
Welcome to THR friend.
No gun is too old to carry if it has been well taken care of and the springs and other parts are replaced on a regular basis. I still shoot a muzzle loader made in Baltimore in 1848. It actually has all of the original parts and has never misfired. I quite often carry a Colt 1903 and a Browning 1910. The springs have both been replaced on both of these. Not because of need just being prudent.
BTW I prefer a metal gun to a plastic one, just a personal choice.
Cheers,
ts
BTW I prefer a metal gun to a plastic one, just a personal choice.
Cheers,
ts
RustyShackelford
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Questions?....
I think some forum members ask ?s about topics they either want re-enforcement on or feel stupid or in-appropriate asking their friends or range buddies.
It sounds like you want a good reason to buy a new small or compact handgun for summer season CCW.
If time or $$$ are issues, then I can understand, but honestly a J frame snub or LCR .38spl could work. So can a XDs or M&P Shield.
SIG Sauer has a current rebate(02 free pistol mags & range bag) & Kahr Arms is now offering a free extra pistol magazine with a C series purchase.
Rusty
PS; I've seen NIB Nano 9mm pistols for $300.00 & the Bersa Compact 9x19 is a top rate CCW gun. They sell new for $350-400.00. Same as the S&W SD40VE.
I think some forum members ask ?s about topics they either want re-enforcement on or feel stupid or in-appropriate asking their friends or range buddies.
It sounds like you want a good reason to buy a new small or compact handgun for summer season CCW.
If time or $$$ are issues, then I can understand, but honestly a J frame snub or LCR .38spl could work. So can a XDs or M&P Shield.
SIG Sauer has a current rebate(02 free pistol mags & range bag) & Kahr Arms is now offering a free extra pistol magazine with a C series purchase.
Rusty
PS; I've seen NIB Nano 9mm pistols for $300.00 & the Bersa Compact 9x19 is a top rate CCW gun. They sell new for $350-400.00. Same as the S&W SD40VE.
Joe Demko
Member
As long as the gun is in good repair and suitable ammunition is available, I wouldn't consider age a problem in and of itself. That said, I would also not deliberately handicap myself by using a gun out of Romanticism, nostalgia, or just wanting to be different if there are better choices available to me.
This is generally where somebody jumps in and proclaims that he carries a brace of custom made flintlock Velo Dogs because they are what he has the most trigger time on...
This is generally where somebody jumps in and proclaims that he carries a brace of custom made flintlock Velo Dogs because they are what he has the most trigger time on...
BSA1
member
Jim K,
I have two used semi-autos with malfunctions caused by weak springs.
One is a Ruger 9mm that started having light hammer strikes. I went ahead and rrplaced all the springs even though the most likely cause was a weak firing pin spring. The gun is currently undergoing my 500 round T & E testing without any malfunctions.
The other gun has weak magazine springs causing failures to feed. This one is going to be a bit of a challenge as no one makes replacement springs. I am going to have to modify springs designed for another gun to fix the problem. I am hard pressed to see a argument against spending $ 10 - 15 for a set of new springs.
I have two used semi-autos with malfunctions caused by weak springs.
One is a Ruger 9mm that started having light hammer strikes. I went ahead and rrplaced all the springs even though the most likely cause was a weak firing pin spring. The gun is currently undergoing my 500 round T & E testing without any malfunctions.
The other gun has weak magazine springs causing failures to feed. This one is going to be a bit of a challenge as no one makes replacement springs. I am going to have to modify springs designed for another gun to fix the problem. I am hard pressed to see a argument against spending $ 10 - 15 for a set of new springs.
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HankB
Member
A handgun becomes too old to carry for self defense only when it is no longer safe and reliable with fresh, modern, high quality ammunition. For example, I would not intentionally carry a vintage cap-and-ball revolver. (I won't volunteer to stand in front of one, either!) Likewise, some oddball made for a round that isn't commonly available wouldn't be my choice, either, so I won't be toting a .30 Mauser Broomhandle. (Yeah, I know you can still get ammo - but name brand rounds are not really common most places.)
As for the examples in the original post, so long as they worked fine during my testing/practice sessions, I'd have no qualms about either the P12 or PP.
As for the examples in the original post, so long as they worked fine during my testing/practice sessions, I'd have no qualms about either the P12 or PP.
Well, I wouldn't carry an 1849 Pocket either, though I once knew a man who did. But the discussion was on whether guns would fail because of age alone, and my 49's work as well today as they did before Mr. Lincoln and Mr. Davis had that little argument.
Hi, BSA1,
I will not say that long use won't affect springs, though GOOD springs will last a very long time. I have seen some folks insist that the springs in a 1911 must be replaced every 100 rounds (yes, that is one hundred rounds, or every two boxes of ammo), which is absolute nonsense!
Jim
Hi, BSA1,
I will not say that long use won't affect springs, though GOOD springs will last a very long time. I have seen some folks insist that the springs in a 1911 must be replaced every 100 rounds (yes, that is one hundred rounds, or every two boxes of ammo), which is absolute nonsense!
Jim
Panzerschwein
member
I personally don't like to carry any guns over 10 years in design or physical specimenal antiquity ala age or condition.
Just too many effective tac pistols today that are leagues ahead of what was available to operators even 10 years ago. JMHO.
YMMV.
Just too many effective tac pistols today that are leagues ahead of what was available to operators even 10 years ago. JMHO.
YMMV.
At what age? when the flint wears out of course!
I have changed a lot of mainsprings on old military surplus and a few commercial rifles. Lock time is faster and more certain after replacement. A used 586 revolver, misfired, hangfired, until I replaced the old mainspring with new.
I have changed a lot of mainsprings on old military surplus and a few commercial rifles. Lock time is faster and more certain after replacement. A used 586 revolver, misfired, hangfired, until I replaced the old mainspring with new.
40-82
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I have just the opposite problem. I have complete faith in a number of 100 year old guns. I wouldn't necessarily have the same faith in something brand new off the shelf of a gun shop. Some of the new ones are probably fine if I knew enough about them to choose the right ones.
Old springs: some years back I replaced the mainspring on an '86 Winchester made in 1887. It just seemed prudent to replace a spring that old with a newly manufactured replacement heat treated in a modern oven rather than by eye. Within two years of regular use the spring snapped. I put the original back in, and it's still working.
If I live long enough I may have to learn more about the new designs because parts for too many of the older models are getting harder to get.
Old springs: some years back I replaced the mainspring on an '86 Winchester made in 1887. It just seemed prudent to replace a spring that old with a newly manufactured replacement heat treated in a modern oven rather than by eye. Within two years of regular use the spring snapped. I put the original back in, and it's still working.
If I live long enough I may have to learn more about the new designs because parts for too many of the older models are getting harder to get.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yep!
You can't buy a new flat spring as good as those old flat springs they made back then.
I'm of the same opinion on the OP's old Walther PP.
The coil springs that came in it are more likely to still be good then anything modern you can buy to replace them.
Besides, it is VERY very unlikely a Walther PP in .32 ACP has ever been shot enough to wear out the springs Walther put in it back then!
rc
You can't buy a new flat spring as good as those old flat springs they made back then.
I'm of the same opinion on the OP's old Walther PP.
The coil springs that came in it are more likely to still be good then anything modern you can buy to replace them.
Besides, it is VERY very unlikely a Walther PP in .32 ACP has ever been shot enough to wear out the springs Walther put in it back then!
rc
HankB
Member
YMMV indeed. From where I sit, the "tactical" pistols coming out today seem to be engineered for lower production cost rather than performance - sure, you can get (for example) 1911s which have standard features that were strictly custom in Dad's or Grand-dad's heyday, but I'd be hard-pressed to name a design introduced recently with performance "leagues ahead" of the best 2004 had to offer . . .
Vodoun da Vinci
Member
Got two Colt 1903's- one from 1917 and one from 1930 and *both* of them fit in the same holster/ I have a neet little IWB holster and they ride in the appendix/1:00 position just fine. I shoot both regularly and hand load for them and they are utterly reliable.
One was good enough to be carried by 3 generations of my Wife's folks. They'll serve me fine as well.
VooDoo
WestKentucky
Member
However many days it's been since the glock 42 came out is too old. Remember Glock is perfection...and no there is no expiration date on a gun. When it starts showing wear on the important bits it's time for some work or a new gun. Examples would be the trigger sear or slide rails on an auto. Often times these guns are let die when all they need is a gunsmiths love.
PT92
Member
Not much to add here as the previous responses nailed it--Personally, I never really listen too much to what the "previous owner" says about any item I may be in the market for (be it guns, cars etc.). I just go with my "gut" feeling and best assessment at that particular time and then go from there. Honestly, I've never been a used-gun kind of guy in terms of defensive guns (obviously collecting is another thing) but that's just me (maybe I'm simply too lazy to do my homework and opt for a new HD/SD/CCW gun). That said, I have buddies that swear it's the only way to buy and not get "robbed."
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