ATF claiming Internet gun sales illegal???

Status
Not open for further replies.
Speaking of "propaganda"...

DNF's bald-faced assertion:
There is a good reason AUSAs love working ATF cases, and ATF has the highest conviction rate of any fed LE agency. They know the law, and work good cases.
...actually falls short of "the whole truth"...

Link:http://trac.syr.edu/tracatf/newfindings/current/

Attorney General Ashcroft, in his January speech, claimed that "the conviction rate for federal gun crime prosecutions was nearly 90 percent in FY year 2002." For those who are actually indicted -- or formally charged -- the conviction rate with these crimes is indeed high, running 83 to 85 percent in each of the last five years. (See table.)

When calculated another way, however, the Justice Department's official numbers are less impressive. Every year, after considering all the weapons cases the ATF has recommended for prosecution, a certain number are declined by assistant U.S. Attorneys or dismissed by federal judges. When looked at though this lens -- the percent of all weapons matters disposed of where the defendant was found guilty -- the ATF conviction rate is quite different than that cited by the attorney general. In FY 1998, 54% of all referrals led to a conviction. This dropped to 42% in FY 1999, 43% in FY 2000, 42% in 2001 and 44% in 2002. (See table.)

An examination of the proportion of ATF referrals for prosecution that Assistant U.S. attorneys across the country decide are worthy of actual prosecution in court raises a second question. Five years ago, when compared to the other major investigative agencies, the ATF had an above average record. Now, it has slipped below the average. (See graph and table.)

Even when looking only at weapons prosecutions, ATF's record does not measure up quite as well as other agencies. In FY 2002, somewhat more than half of ATF weapons referrals under 18 USC 922 (56% of them) were prosecuted. By comparison, over two thirds of the weapons matters referred to the prosecutors (71%) by other federal agencies were prosecuted. (See table.)

The comparatively long sentences mandated in the nation's gun laws for defendants convicted on weapons charges have for many years meant that the ATF has ranked near the top of all federal agencies in terms of median and average prison terms that result from its investigations. While this is still true, the median or typical ATF sentence in recent years is now lower than it was in the mid-1990s. Since the Justice Department began collecting such information, the agency's highest median sentence -- half got more, half got less -- was 57 months. This was recorded in FY 1996. For FY 2000, 2001 and 2002, the median sentence for each year was 41 months. (See graph and table.)

It is widely assumed by crime experts that the use of illegal guns is a core problem of the nation's big cities. But current data show that the ATF continues to focus a good part of its enforcement efforts in the less populous and more rural districts rather than in the major cities. Measured in per capita terms -- the number of referrals in each federal district in relation to its population -- among the areas with below average ATF presence were California Central (Los Angeles), Illinois North (Chicago), California North (San Francisco), Massachusetts (Boston), Georgia North (Atlanta), the District of Columbia, New York South (Manhattan), and Michigan East (Detroit). (See graph and table, as well as additional details.)

Comment: One wonders, if the cases for mere felon is possession (fip), as opposed to arguably "real" crimes were removed, what the american taxpaying public is actually getting for their money? Could they be more helpful, for example, by fighting terrorism? Nah, that's not really a priority...

See graph:http://trac.syr.edu/tracatf/trends/v04/piefillawG.html

Perhaps because of the ATF's intense focus on gun-carrying felons, the agency's involvement in terrorism matters was comparatively modest in the period after 9/11/01, despite its special responsibilities and expertise in conducting bomb investigations.

Although there were a relatively small number of terrorism and internal security cases for the entire government in the twelve months before the 9/11 attacks, the ATF that year was second only to the FBI when it came to referring these kinds of cases. In FY 2002, however, the year after the 9/11 attacks, ATF fell to eighth place among the agencies, well behind the FBI and several entirely new players like the Social Security Administration, the Department of Transportation and the Postal Service. While ATF terrorism/internal security cases did increase in the year after 9/11, the ten-fold surge in enforcement activities by all federal agencies dwarfed the ATF effort. (See graph and table.) Actions by the ATF to enforce explosives laws are in fact lower today than they were a decade ago. (See graph and table.)

Waiting to hear how the p-man's story shakes out...
 
Last edited:
El Tejon I am guessing that our good Rev. buys enough guns from this particular dealer that he is getting the Gods honest truth. The question for me is why would this lowly little Federal Agent go around making up stories like this. I think contacting the nearest office is a good idea Preacherman this might be an agent that needs to me reigned in.
 
All the ATF Special Agents I know (and I'm betting I know more, and have spent more time talking with them, than you), seem to have an excellent knowledge of federal firearms laws.

People should pay less attention to the propaganda from certain sources, and acquaint themselves with the facts.

There is a reason why ATF requires questions about the laws and firearms be submitted in writing and they send you a written response. :rolleyes: You may know every ATF agent in the country, but I would bet if you give them a complex question about the law, you would have several different answers. Just like everyone else, they have geniuses and morons working for them. The average agent isn't going to dedicate the time and effort in keeping on top of the firearms laws. Some will, some won't.
 
El Tejon I am guessing that our good Rev. buys enough guns from this particular dealer that he is getting the Gods honest truth. The question for me is why would this lowly little Federal Agent go around making up stories like this...
Maybe the FFL holder just misunderstood what the ATF guy told him... Or maybe the ATF guy has incorrectly interpreted the law. Either way it seems to me that all the nefarious motives attributed to the tale are just so much supposition based on preconceived notions about how evil the ATF is.
 
I think I may have done business with the dealer Preacherman mentioned. If so I'm pretty sure he told the truth. He was completely on the up-and-up during my dealings, and I was well satisfied.
 
Ah hammer I love that trac site too. Been a while since I went poking around for info, but it's got some good stuff - if you know what it really means.

ATF still has the highest conviction rate of any fed agency. Declinations for prosecution have little to do with the merits of a case, and sometimes the choice isn't even up to the AUSA it's pitched to, because the USA in the district in an effort to manage his office will set prosecutorial guidelines. You can have an airtight case, but it may not meet the threshold for prosecution. Gets a little complicated, when juggling the huge amount of work that needs to get done. Lucky agents can pass their case off to a local agency if there is an applicable state crime, and a county prosecutor will take it, because the locals often have different priorities and thresholds for prosecution. I've seen cases rejected by an AUSA referred to a county prosecutor, or vice versa. Who knows what is going on with ATF cases, but prosecution thresholds change regularly. Still doesn't change ATF's very high conviction rate.

With regard to ATF and terrorism cases. There is a reason the FBI has many more terrorism related explosives cases - Congress demanded it work that way. ATF is the primary agency for arson and bombing cases that are purely criminal in nature, and FBI is primary when terrorism is involved. If it's terrorism related and the FBI doesn't want it, ATF gets it. Guess what, over 95% of all explosive and bombing cases are NOT related to terrorism. Meaning while the FBI will have more cases go to prosecution related to terrorism, the ATF will do MANY more bombing and arson cases. The other little known fact is that while the FBI may be primary for the terrorism investigations, the ATF will be playing a significant role helping out since they have much more experience among their agents than the FBI does.

It's cool that you went out and found that info, but you weren't looking at it in any realistic context.

BTW, p-man? :confused:
 
Surprise me if they did anything right when dealing with people on a face to face basis. The only time I dealt with the agency, they had contacted my dealer tracing back a firearm used in a crime. My dealer's a pretty good friend so he tells me what's going on (and this is completely legal). The firearm is mine, my dealer thinks me went off the edge finally. But the great part, kind of ironic I would guess, is that the firearm, and everything else I owned at the time, was stolen, and dutifully reported so 5 months earlier.

I'm what I consider a do-gooder, so I call ATF in Phoenix, and try to get in front of this mess so some sorry bunch of idiots don't ride down to the old pueblo and bust my door down. They leave my message for two days with no response, then I start calling one day and get a hold of someone, and explain my situation. Seems pretty simple to me, I'm no criminal, I happen to be the victim, and by the way, how come you had to call my dealer when the gun should be in NCI system? And since we're just chatting between friends, did you happen to ask the jerk who had my gun if he had a line on the OTHER TEN they stole from my house? Here's where the whole mess turns ugly.

I must have impugned someboby's integrity there, And of course my sarcasm doesn't help, but now they start asking me why my dealer would be telling me of an active investigation, his name(this really impressed me), and told me I had no right to know that they had traced back a gun that I OWNED. And the only reason I called in the first place was to get in front of this mess. Well, this was my first and last conversation with the agency, and I really don't believe that they remember,(nor do the rest of the bureaucracies)
they are a part of the government, and self sufficient as they are are in funding themselves, they still need to answer to those who fund them respectfully( believe me, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about congress). So I ask the nice young lady agent, if she can tell me, my lawyer, or if I need to get some help from Congressman Kolbe's office to find out where my gun is. She, in so many words, tells me that 'I wouldn't worry about getting your gun back, it's in court and probably will be for a long time.'
I can't remember, and DMF you'll probably know a lot better than me, but where the hell did they find the law that says, Nah, you don't get your guns back. Cars, furs, jewelry, tools, books, sure but not those nasty black guns. They're gone.gone.gone....

They did on the phone with me 'Make things up as they went along'. Now as with all posts, the information above is anecdotal in nature, it happened to me and me only, to the left is my name,and I've never hid from anything behind a moniker. I usually just read but this time I had to jump in with some personal info as to how sometimes, humans are humans and make mistakes.
Unless you want to tell me that they were right and I have no right to my property because it was unlawfully stolen from me and then used in a crime.

Just my 02.
Sean
 
It doesn't even have to be used in a crime. I was arrested a few years ago and charged with a bunch of bogus stuff. My little carry piece was confiscated. All those charges were dropped and I got the piece back. 5-6 months later ATF calls my dealer running a crime check on the carry piece I had originally bought new. :what:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.