ATF ETRACE: LE tool or central database?

[Wesson9]

I'm sure we've all seen the part of ATF Form 4473 that the GS lists make, model and SN of the purchased firearm. This seemed interesting to me considering congress has specifically legislated in the 1986 Firearms Owners’ Protection Act that no records shall be required to be turned over to the government. After looking further, I discovered that at the time of a FFL closure, death or retirement, said FFL is required to turn over the bound book to the ATF. Am I the only one who has a sneaking suspicion that they have already built the central database? If the government decides to ban all firearms I'd rather them not have a list of name and addresses for the doors they'll be kicking in. What do you guys think? Am I blowing this out of proportion.

I've written the NRA and asked if they've looked into this or taken any action but I haven't heard back.

Here's a little more in depth information: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/10/robert-farago/atf-etrace-revealed-backdoor-national-firearms-registration-scheme/

 

[Bubba613]

Take off the tin foil hat.
Yes, records get turned in. So what? I have 6 years' worth of 4473s in the back in bankers boxes. Some of the people there have died. Many have moved. Some have gotten married. A lot have sold or traded the guns listed on the form. After 20 years the value of any information on those forms is next to nothing. Collecting them into a database would involve far more effort than any benefit available.

 

[Sam1911]

While certainly anything is possible, the only records they're getting are from FFLs that go out of business before 20 years after the sale. So if there's a database it is so incredibly full of holes that it would be next to useless.

Looking back at my personal history, as near as I can recall, only ONE gun I've ever bought would be in that database. (Because that dealer went out of business ~10 years after I bought the gun.) The paperwork from every other purchase I've made from a dealer is still collecting dust in the dealers' filing cabinets.

 

[Ryanxia]

While you're correct they could be compiling a central database, as others have said it would be widely inaccurate. The most they could get from it is a list of gun owners (which just doing the form probably gives them that anyway). People buy and sell privately constantly (in states that are allowed). Half the guns I own aren't in my name and half the guns I've bought over the years I probably don't have anymore.

 

[razorback2003]

People can buy, trade, or sale guns constantly. The records are really not that good in tracing guns to the present owner.

 

[Wesson9]

All good points and I agree, many guns are not owned by the original transferee. I still question the legality of the ATF requiring FFLs to turn over records. FOPA states:
"No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States..."

 

[Ryanxia]

No rule or regulation prescribed AFTER the date of enactment, was this a law before the FOPA?

 

[Wesson9]

@Ryanxia: I think that's the kicker. Title 18 of U.S.C Section 923 was part of GCA of 1968. I still don't like it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I think that's the kicker. Title 18 of U.S.C Section 923 was part of GCA of 1968. I still don't like it...

Nonetheless, I think that answers your question.

You asked essentially whether current FFL record keeping practices, as required by the ATF, violate provisions of the 1986 Firearms Owners’ Protection Act:

...This seemed interesting to me considering congress has specifically legislated in the 1986 Firearms Owners’ Protection Act that no records shall be required to be turned over to the government. After looking further, I discovered that at the time of a FFL closure, death or retirement, said FFL is required to turn over the bound book to the ATF...

And it appears that they do not. As you, yourself noted in post 6, the FOPA prohibitions regarding records only applied to rules or requirements prescribed after the enactment of the FOPA, and thus left in place then existing record keeping requirements.

So whether the current rules are good or whether you don't like them are different issues. The fact is that they are not inconsistent with the FOPA.

 

[Wesson9]

Agreed. While digging I did in fact answer my own question. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Am I the only one who has a sneaking suspicion that they have already built the central database? If the government decides to ban all firearms I'd rather them not have a list of name and addresses for the doors they'll be kicking in.

Oh ya, thousands of file clerks typing 20 year old, out of date, hand written info into a central database. It might be "data", but it hardly will translate into "information".

But, it does sound like a typical useless government make work project.

 

[Nullcone]

I think I've mentioned this before, but nothing screams satisfaction as much as repeating yourself.

An FFL holder (home-business type) I've dealt with in the past doesn't much care for this regulation either.

Between felt tip pens that smear if you look at them crosswise and his "records storage location" being sandwiched by a couple of old grimy jerry cans of diesel... I don't think any of his records will be very useful.

Unless you need to light some charcoal.

 

[dprice3844444]

and don't forget the muliple pistol reports in triplicate,1 to atf,the other to local pd

 

[Bubbles]

and don't forget the muliple pistol reports in triplicate,1 to atf,the other to local pd

Local PD is only required to keep those for six months. ATF keeps them forever, and those do have the make/model/serial #/caliber of the guns on them.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Ya, those are a =real= problem ... I think in 3 years I've filled out 4 ....

But I can tell you that ATF -does- look at those.

 

[Bubbles]

Ya, those are a =real= problem ... I think in 3 years I've filled out 4 ....

But I can tell you that ATF -does- look at those.

Yes, they do, within 3-4 days of receipt.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Well, damn, wonder what'd they think of those cases of CZ82's and Nagants that 03's (C&R) had shipped to a dealer cause it cost hundreds (OR MORE) less?