ATF to Push for New Reporting Rules for Dealers

[Animal Mother]

According to this article at the Washington Post the ATF is going to make a push for new rules that would require dealers to report multiple purchases of rifles or shotguns to the ATF. I suppose if that passes anybody who buys a 22 Lever Action and Mosin Nagant in the same week can expect a visit from their friendly ATF agent, supposedly all in the name of stopping Mexican drug cartel crime that is currently taking place in Mexico.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1406045.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010121406431

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Time to buy multiple firearms at a time just to glut up the system.

 

[DustyVermonter]

I don't need to explain multiple purchases to my wife, much less an ATF agent. I say leave worrying about explaining multiple purchases to the criminals, cartels and whoever else buys guns with ill intent, but as far as I'm concerned...no explanation necessary.

I buy guns, I like guns, I shoot guns, that pretty much explains it.

 

[DustyVermonter]

I do tend to agree though, it would be a gross privacy invasion and to me would be a personal insult to have to deny being a criminal with some hidden terroristic agenda.

 

[kinkinhood]

Last I heard most criminals are buying from dealers who are not reporting to the ATF.

 

[22-rimfire]

They already do it with handguns. Mulitiple purchase from the same FFL dealer in a single week does not necessarily result in a call from the ATF or a visit to the FFL dealer.

 

[Bubbles]

This is absurd. If the ATF suspects that a criminal is getting multiple long guns from a specific dealer, the ATF is free to inspect that dealer's records at any time to look for patterns of illegal activity. Some have gone so far as to make copies of or take blocks of 4473's, no warrant needed.

 

[Yo Mama]

I don't mind the visit, but I do mind that they will have a report filed and stored on me. Registration? Na, would never happen.....right?

 

[A.H. Fox]

Form 4473 is a registration of a firearm. No permission to buy. Uncle Sam knows who and where.....

 

[Colonel]

Last I heard most criminals are buying from dealers who are not reporting to the ATF.

Last I heard, not too many U.S. gun dealers were selling the M203 grenades, RPGs, crew-served heavy machine guns and full-auto AKs that the Mexican cartels purchase by the boat load.

I might not be as smart as those sleuths in DC, but somehow it just doesn't make much sense to me for Paco the Narcoterrorist to risk coming across to Texas, then screw around waiting for his NICS check to clear, just so he can pay $600 for one semi-auto AK (that he then has to smuggle back to Mexico) when instead he can buy full-auto AKs all day long on the int'l black market for $20,000 per hundred pieces.

You wonder how politicians can push these proposals with a straight face.

 

[sansone]

They already do it with handguns. Mulitiple purchase from the same FFL dealer in a single week does not necessarily result in a call from the ATF or a visit to the FFL dealer.

this is true. The short form (multiple handguns) gets faxed to the national tracing center. None of my customers (or myself) have received any calls. If one of those guns shows up at a crime scene, that will bring a call

 

[Bubba613]

Form 4473 is a registration of a firearm.

Bravo Sierra.

The multiple sales report, however, is part of their effort to build a database. I know this personally. I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually what they are after.
Personally the multiple sales report is a big PITA. And i doubt its been effective in stopping or solving any crimes.

 

[macadore]

More paper work seems to be the solution to everything.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Buy two guns at a time people! Lets bog up the system!

 

[dogtown tom]

Bubba613

Quote:
Form 4473 is a registration of a firearm.

Bravo Sierra.

The multiple sales report, however, is part of their effort to build a database. I know this personally. I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually what they are after.
Personally the multiple sales report is a big PITA. And i doubt its been effective in stopping or solving any crimes.

+1

If the 4473 is "registration" then it would have to be the most poorly thought out means of collecting firearm information in history. ATF will not get my 4473's until after I go out of business. The 4473 is simply a record of firearm sales from a licensed dealer.

 

[Rio Laxas]

+1

If the 4473 is "registration" then it would have to be the most poorly thought out means of collecting firearm information in history. ATF will not get my 4473's until after I go out of business. The 4473 is simply a record of firearm sales from a licensed dealer.

It may be poorly thought out (or rather gutted by the applicable laws), but I have seen it action. The ATF was able to produce a list of every firearm that I purchased and/or traded for through an FFL over the course of two years from multiple dealers (4+) not confined to a small geographic region with no input from me. The only one they missed was an M1 from the CMP. I lived in a large city (Houston) at the time, so it wasn't like it was easy for them to just go to every dealer in the area. In addition to that, they even found a firearm purchased in Dallas. I was told that I was not being investigated, but that my purchases were looked into as a part of a "routine" examination.

I aroused their interest because they also apparently ran me through a database that tracks employee earnings and could not find any records for me. It took producing check stubs for the preceding 6 months to satisfy them that I was gainfully employed. It may take some leg work, but the fact they were able to produce that kind of data leads me to believe that it is a de facto (albeit voluntary) registration system for all firearms purchased through an FFL. I will say though that while they had the make/models right for the most part, the serial numbers were wrong in a lot of cases. Either they couldn't read the forms or they were recorded incorrectly. This was approximately 6 to 9 months prior to the big push to do more of these type of inquiries in Texas over the cartel issue. It made me very glad that I kept decent records of my purchases/trades and that I went out of my way to educate myself on federal firearms laws and follow them.

Say what you will about it not being registration, but I was shocked at how quickly they could pull that information as part of something "routine" that was never even classified as an investigation. Now it is possible that they were able to track down some (but not all) of the FFLs that I used through multiple purchase forms. To top it off, this was all started with an unannounced visit to my house (though I was not home at the time). I don't consider myself to be that prolific of a buyer/seller/trader of firearms. I'd say my activity is more than your average gun owner, but a lot less than most serious collectors.

 

[Black Butte]

Reporting the purchase of multiple handguns within a five-day period is already federal law under Chapter 44, Title 18 of the United States Code. 18 USC 923(g)(3)(A) states:

"Each licensee shall prepare a report of multiple sales or other dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of, at one time or during any five consecutive business days, two or more pistols, or revolvers, or any combination of pistols and revolvers totaling two or more, to an unlicensed person. The report shall be prepared on a form specified by the Attorney General and forwarded to the office specified thereon and to the department of State police or State law enforcement agency of the State or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction in which the sale or other disposition took place, not later than the close of business on the day that the multiple sale or other disposition occurs."

 

[Balrog]

ATF will not get my 4473's until after I go out of business. The 4473 is simply a record of firearm sales from a licensed dealer.

The 4473 is defacto registration, the dealer is simply holding the registration for the ATF. During the Clinton administration, the ATF attempted to create a database based on 4473 forms. This is well documented, and required Congressional intervention to stop.

At any time, the ATF can inspect a dealer's 4473 forms and extract data from it.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Last I heard most criminals are buying from dealers who are not reporting to the ATF.

Cha ... ya think?

 

[mgkdrgn]

+1

If the 4473 is "registration" then it would have to be the most poorly thought out means of collecting firearm information in history.

Well it -is- a government form/program ... what else would you expect? ;-)

 

[mgkdrgn]

It may be poorly thought out (or rather gutted by the applicable laws), but I have seen it action. The ATF was able to produce a list of every firearm that I purchased and/or traded for through an FFL over the course of two years from multiple dealers (4+) not confined to a small geographic region with no input from me.

....

but the fact they were able to produce that kind of data leads me to believe that it is a de facto (albeit voluntary) registration system for all firearms purchased through an FFL. I will say though that while they had the make/models right for the most part, the serial numbers were wrong in a lot of cases. Either they couldn't read the forms or they were recorded incorrectly.

Say what you will about it not being registration, but I was shocked at how quickly they could pull that information as part of something "routine" that was never even classified as an investigation.

The -only- way I can think of they could have done this was to pull all of the NICS checks that were done on you ... and I was of the opinion that -those- were suppose to vanish as soon as they were completed, if they came back as a "proceed". Plus, the data on the NICS check only say Handgun/Long gun ... it's no more specific than that.

The 4473's (at least mine) and "Bound Book" are not indexed by name, they are indexed by date. If you can tell me when I got a gun from a distributor, I can pretty quickly tell you who got it. But, if you want to know every gun I ever sold to "Joe Blow", I'd have to look at every line in every Bound Book or at EVERY 4473 individually to pull that kind of list.

 

[A.H. Fox]

It's very simple. If you have to do anything more than walk up to a counter, lay your cash down and then walk out with your new gun you have registered your gun in a government database. The fact that it may be very difficult to determine what you bought and when is irrelevant. You can walk into a store buy a 12" butchers knife and not one form is filled out. How many folks are stabbed by kitchen knives each year? I don't know. Hell, you can get machetes at Target and not one form is filled out.

No government check or form is required to buy a 10,000 lb F-350 dually. You got the cash, lay it down, sign over the title and out the door you go. Did it a year ago. Took less than 15 minutes from the time I picked my truck until I was driving it off the lot. Guns, not so easy as buying a 10,000 lb potential death dealing machine.

 

[Black Butte]

@A.H. Fox Actually, the law requires that cash purchases over $10,000 be reported to the government. Unless that F-350 dually is old and rusted, Uncle Sam is going to know about it, even if you never registered it or drove it.

 

[Bubba613]

It may be poorly thought out (or rather gutted by the applicable laws), but I have seen it action. The ATF was able to produce a list of every firearm that I purchased and/or traded for through an FFL over the course of two years from multiple dealers (4+) not confined to a small geographic region with no input from me. The only one they missed was an M1 from the CMP. I lived in a large city (Houston) at the time, so it wasn't like it was easy for them to just go to every dealer in the area. In addition to that, they even found a firearm purchased in Dallas. I was told that I was not being investigated, but that my purchases were looked into as a part of a "routine" examination.

Clearly you were doing something to arouse their interest. I have sold multiple guns to some customers many times over a long period. And ATF never had a word with them or me.
They took the time to examine bound books and 4473s in a given area by multiple dealers. They clearly were looking for something. My guess is they were doing a wide sweep for unlicensed dealers.
But the 4473, contrary to some posters, is not a database. Any more than sales slips are databases.

 

[Balrog]

But the 4473, contrary to some posters, is not a database.

It is not a database, but it sure is data. The only difference is that the data has not passed through a clearinghouse to organize it. The government knows they can't do they, so they let you, the FFL, babysit the 4473's for them, until they want them. But they can access them at any time.