Attacks On The Mexican Border On BP

[macavada]

The problem is that you have an agenda, and you tend to back it up with half-truths and outright lies, because the ends justify the means. All those "stats" you just rattled off don't amount to anything if you can't back them up. These anecdotal "stats" perpetuated by those with the agenda can't be trusted until they are proven stats.

I stated previously that they steal SSN's. So what. They aren't committing identity theft fraud with them, they are paying into the SS system into some legal citizen's account.

I'll agree that illegal aliens do take advantage of the public schools system, because it is true and a fact, not because you say so. If they're going to be here illegally anyway, better off for everyone that they be in school where they can "Americanize" and assimilate, rather than be out in the streets learning how to be criminals. If we don't want them in the school system, we need to keep them out of the country. Until then, the expenses paid into the school system is a sunk cost, so to speak.

I'll examine the full scope of the problem, and perhaps with your help, but I'm not going to buy into hyperbole and false statements purported as facts just because they are posted on this forum.

If you want to point out what they cost us, that's fine. I'll agree to whatever can be shown to be true. When you make statements that fit with the ideology, even if they aren't true, but they fit the "spirit" of your argument, that is simply wrong.

So, again, are illegals bringing in their grandparents so that they can collect SSI? (That was the point of contention.)

Maybe you should fear what it's costing to pay their medical bills and educate their children and pay SSI to their grandparents.

If you notice, I didn't argue the other assertions in your statement, just one point.

 

[Art Eatman]

"It's not what people don't know that hurts, it's what people know that's not so that's the problem." Or something like that.

Folks, there's a lot of confusion about "benefits". Illegals are not involved in cash-payment benefit programs to any great extent. The only area would be scamming into food stamps, maybe, and possibly AFDC; I don't know. The problem is their use of public services.

SFAIK, there are two serious tax-dollar-costs due to illegals: The first is the use of emergency rooms in lieu of other medical treatment, and not paying. The law requires that ERs treat all who come in. So, lacking health insurance or cash for a regular doctor's office visit, stubbed toes and colds wind up in ERs. So do all the other health problems, whether TB or car wrecks or heart attacks. This problem comes also from poor citizens as well, but poor citizens aren't the issue.

The other is crime and gangs. FWIW, I recently read an article in a California newspaper (LA Times? SacBee?) that some 90% of unserved felony warrants are for illegals who have fled--either to a barrio or back to Mexico or wherever. Now, that means some sort of crime occurred, and a felony typically has cost an individual or his insurance company some money. You have police and prison costs...

Gangs: We suffer from them as well as those around them. Much of the shooting/murdering involves gang warfare and drug-gang-related warfare. That leads to more gun-control efforts. And, of course, the associated public $ costs of efforts to deal with the problems. There are websites at both state and federal dot-gov which speak to the mix of gangs and illegals and drugs. What's truly awesome is the total number of people in these gangs, whether legal or illegal as to citizenship or green card. If memory serves, it's something like 40,000 in the greater LA Basin.

Health problems that once were ended are returning. TB, for one. I got out of the Army on a medical on account of TB, so I tend to pay a bit more attention to this. Basically, it was ended as a problem by the 1960s/1970s. It's coming back, imported from overseas--whether by legal or illegal, doesn't matter. But, some illegals do have the disease and the modern version doesn't respond to the drugs that cured me.

Forged-paper people are in the families which inhabit the "colonias" along the Texas border. Every few years there's been a new federal or state grant program to upgrade water supply, sewer, and streets in these "residential subdivisions. That's tax money. A couple will be citizens, and the family group just happens to include a niece or nephew or two from the in-Mexico side of the family.

So it's a little bit here, a larger bit there, and it adds up to a helluva chunk of tax dollars.

Sorry this is so long-winded.

Art

 

[c_yeager]

Trading land for peace? I think it has been tried before. It doesn't work too well.

Yes, it worked out very poorly for Mexico.

SFAIK, there are two serious tax-dollar-costs due to illegals: The first is the use of emergency rooms in lieu of other medical treatment, and not paying.

I'm sure this is a significant problem in the Border States. But, up here in the Northwest our biggest perpetrators are the same white-trash that has been leeching on the system for 4 generations. It's definatly a problem that needs to be solved, but i think it's the health-care system that needs to be fixed in this case.

Based what I have seen of TB I suspect that most of this is coming from Eastern Europeans were the disease seems to be running through the large cities unchecked.

Illegal immigration DOES eat away our tax-dollars. But, i think the real problem is our public assistance system. Those dollars simply should not be there to scam in the first place. A deadbeat is a deadbeat regardless of where they come from. The ethnicity/immigration status of your deadbeats is a function of region more than anything. And they ALL abuse the system. Fixing illegal immigration would do wonders to help things the border states but it wouldnt do much to keep the toothless losers out of our hospitals up here in Seattle.

 

[wingman]

Immigration officials hit lack of new hires


By Jerry Seper and Stephen Dinan
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The Bush administration's decision not to hire 2,000 new Border Patrol agents for fiscal year 2006 will seriously hamper efforts to control illegal immigration along the U.S.-Mexico border, said current and retired officials.
President Bush is expected to seek an increase of only about 200 agents for the new fiscal year, according to law-enforcement authorities and others, significantly short of the 2,000 per year authorized for each of the next five years in the recently passed intelligence overhaul bill.







Passed by Congress and signed into law by Mr. Bush in December, the bill authorized 10,000 new Border Patrol agents as part of Congress' response to the September 11 commission's findings. The panel revealed deep institutional failings and missed opportunities by U.S. authorities in stopping the al Qaeda terrorists who crashed jetliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, killing about 3,000 people.
The proposed influx of new agents would nearly double the size of the Border Patrol in the next five years as concern increased over new terrorist threats and a significant rise in the number of assaults against agents assigned along the border. Fears were heightened particularly in Arizona, where agents captured more than 40 percent of the 1.15 million aliens caught last year trying to sneak into the country.
Agents on a 260-mile stretch of Arizona-Mexico border, known as the Tucson sector, are being assaulted at a rate of once every two days, according to Border Patrol statistics.
Department of Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge and Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson, who heads border and transportation security, confirmed separately that Mr. Bush will not seek funding for the extra agents this year. His fiscal 2006 budget request is due in February.
Mr. Ridge, who has resigned and will leave office tomorrow, referred to the intelligence bill authorization of 10,000 agents as "fool's gold," saying it would be an inefficient use of Homeland Security funds. Mr. Hutchinson, who has quit effective March 1, said funding issues within the department precluded such a large increase in manpower.
Mr. Hutchinson told reporters in Arizona that although there would be "some increase" in the number of agents, he would "leave it to the president" to determine how many. He said the addition of 2,000 agents this year "would not be doable within our budget constraints."
The intelligence overhaul bill also authorized increasing the number of U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement (ICE) agents assigned to find and detain the 8 million to 12 million illegals in the United States from 2,000 to 6,000 and the number of beds where illegal aliens can be held from 20,000 to 60,000. The bill called for both changes in the next five years.
In a letter to Congress during the debate on the bill, Mr. Bush specifically praised those increases, calling them "an important step in strengthening our immigration laws."
Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., Wisconsin Republican and chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, told reporters last week that he was "disappointed in Secretary Ridge's comments" because they seemed to go against what Mr. Bush had promised in the letter.
In a letter to Mr. Bush, he asked the president to fully fund the increases authorized in the bill, particularly the number of Border Patrol agents — a staffing provision that was among the recommendations of the September 11 commission.
"Now that you have signed into law the conference report implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 commission, we as the conferees to the House-Senate conference committee are asking you to join us in seeking full funding for the resources it authorizes," the letter said.
It was signed by all five House Republican leaders on the intelligence bill: Mr. Sensenbrenner and Reps. Henry J. Hyde of Illinois, chairman of the House International Relations Committee; Duncan Hunter of California, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee; Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, chairman of the House intelligence committee; and David Dreier of California, chairman of the House Rules Committee.
T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council (NBPC), which represents all 11,000 of the agency's nonsupervisory agents, said it was a "mistake" not to fund the staffing increases. He said the NBPC would push members of Congress to persuade Mr. Bush to rework the 2006 budget to include funding for the additional 2,000 agents.
"Foreign terrorists continue to pose an extreme threat to the safety of our nation, and illegal immigration remains out of control," said Mr. Bonner, a 27-year Border Patrol veteran.
He also described as "unwise" a Bush plan to substitute $64 million for sensors and surveillance technology and $10 million for unmanned aerial vehicles instead of increasing the number of agents, saying, "While such technology can be useful in pinpointing the location of those who cross our borders illegally, it cannot catch a single violator.
"As long as our borders remain porous, they are just as open to terrorists and other criminals as they are to illegal aliens," he said.
Michael W. Cutler, a retired U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) senior agent who lead major INS drug-trafficking investigations for more than two decades, said it was "difficult to understand" why the administration would not fund authorized staffing increases as Border Patrol agents face a significant increase in assaults, particularly in the volatile Tucson sector.
"Just last week, the State Department issued a traveler's warning about escalating violence in the northern regions of Mexico, including incidents of kidnapping and murder," Mr. Cutler said. "These crimes are being committed on our southern doorstep, many of them against our own agents. It's time they got a little help."

 

[longeyes]

I stated previously that they steal SSN's. So what. They aren't committing identity theft fraud with them, they are paying into the SS system into some legal citizen's account.

"So what." Well, that says volumes. I suppose when they borrow on someone's SS number and screw up his credit, your response is "So what" too. Law is law--for some of us. This is the kind of attitude we don't need to import, sorry.

Numerous articles have detailed the alarming rate of criminality among the "hard-working moms and dads" that Bush has rhapsodized about (and, no doubt, will again tonight). I'm not saying all Mexicans are criminals, by any means--except in the case of illegal aliens whose initial entry is a crime--but I am saying that sugarcoating this problem isn't going to solve it. The stories of Mexican nationals who have fled felony raps by running back across the border are legion. Mexico has turned a deaf ear to that problem pretty much, although it's easy to seem deaf when no one--I'm thinking of our President--is doing more than talk in whispers.

If we wanted to solve this problem we could, and quickly, by enforcing hard penalties against employers and taking steps to curtail the use of public assistance by illegals. The operative word, of course, as in that famous Greek story, is "IF."

Only the application of powerful political pressure by anti-illegal immigration advocates, whether in the Republican or Democratic parties, is going to turn the political-corporate juggernaut of Open Borders around. This will get front-page and it will get nasty before it's done, especially if Bush, as I expect, digs his heels in on this matter and sees expanding "family values" across the Rio Grande as both part of his "mandate" and his "legacy."

 

[wingman]

Bush Illegal Immigrant Proposal Could Force Benefit Cuts, Higher Taxes (Press Release)


Alexandria, VA (January 20, 2004) -- A proposal by President Bush to give illegal immigrant workers temporary legal status would put the Social Security benefits of current senior citizens at risk, warns a national senior advocacy organization. "Adding millions of illegal immigrants and their dependents to Social Security would put a sudden huge new burden on a program that's not sustainable for much longer now," declares George Smith, Chairman of TREA Senior Citizens League (TSCL). "Our government could be forced to cut Cost-of-Living Adjustments (COLAs) or other benefits, and increase the taxes of Americans who worked and paid into Social Security legally," Smith states.

Under the plan recently announced by President Bush, immigrant workers -- including some who entered the country illegally -- would gain access to Social Security benefits.(1) President Bush also proposed a totalization agreement with Mexico that would allow immigrant Mexican workers to total the hours worked in both countries in order to become eligible for benefits under one of the two systems. As Congressman Tom Tancredo (R-CO) put it in an October 2003 letter to TSCL, "it (a Totalization treaty) will pay Social Security retirement benefits to Mexican citizens based on work they performed while in the U.S. illegally -- thus rewarding illegal behavior."

The potential cost of the proposals, however, is not fully known. According to a March 2003 report by the Social Security Inspector General, wages reported under an invalid name or Social Security number -- most of which are thought to be from illegal immigrant workers -- totaled about $374 billion through 2000.(2) The Inspector General says current Social Security policy allows for the reinstatement of earnings if an immigrant worker later receives a valid Social Security number and can prove the former earnings while illegal are his.(3) According to the Inspector General "if an amnesty and/or totalization agreement occurs, the Social Security Administration potentially may need to reinstate a large volume of wages based on unauthorized work."(4)

TSCL was the first seniors' organization to go on record opposing a totalization agreement with Mexico and amnesty plans for illegal immigrants. "Our government should not reward someone for breaking the law," Smith asserts. "TSCL supports legislation that would prohibit the government from paying benefits based on work while in this country illegally. We urge seniors to contact their Members of Congress to protest this giveaway of their retirement security. Tell them you oppose any amnesty or totalization agreement that would reward illegal immigrants with your Social Security benefits." Smith declares.

TSCL is a national group of politically active seniors concerned about the protection of their earned Social Security, Medicare, military, and other retirement benefits. TSCL members participate in a number of grassroots lobbying and public education campaigns designed to ensure governmental bodies, including the Social Security Administration and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, live up to their commitments. For more free information on our organization, please contact TREA Senior Citizens League, Department S706X, 909 N. Washington St., Suite 300, Alexandria, VA 22314, or visit our website at: www.tscl.org.

(1) Bush Outlines New Proposal For Undocumented Workers, Greg Hitt, The Wall Street Journal, January 8, 2004.
(2) Social Security Administration Benefits Related to Unauthorized Work, James. G. Juse, Jr., Social Security Office of Inspector General, March 2003, page 1.
(3) Ibid, page 7.
(4) Ibid, page 12.

Distributed by The Senior Exchange, Inc.
Serving The Mature American With Timely, Low-Cost,
Self-Help Information




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[tommytrauma]

Macavada

Your assertion was that illegal aliens bring in their grand parents and they get SSI. That is simply false. There are people that commit welfare fraud, and elderly people do it as well, but they are individuals with a legal status that allows them to defraud the system. Illegals don't get the opportunity to do it, because they can't get past that hurdle. You are attributing welfare fraud committed by people that are here (at some point) legally to illegal aliens because you want to support your argument against illegal aliens. It is fine if you don't want illegals in this country, but when you support your position with lies, it sort of undermines your position.

I adjudicate disability cases for a living. (Edit - one of two jobs. I also work as a paramedic, and have made reference to that job on this board.) While there are regulations on the books regarding the required legal status for non-citizen claimants, we are often directly prohibited from even asking about status, much less demanding proof. We are also forbidden from sharing any information with immigration or law enforcement except under very limited circumstances. The simple fact is that there are many, many people receiving SSI while illegally in this country.

 

[Lennyjoe]

they steal SSN's

As they did my 16 yr old daughters. Not one, but two individuals are using her SSN to cash checks at a local Check Cashing establishment.

How do I know they were immigrants? The lady at the check place informed me that one was a 32 year old hispanic female and the other was a 37 year old hispanic male. Thats all she was legally allowed to tell me.

I asked, "how in the hell are you letting 2 people use my daughters SSN without verifying their ID's". Thats when she clammed up.

I did the whole fraud report thing with the local cops, Consumer folks and credit companies.

I have nothing against any race. If you want to be an American then do it the legal way.

 

[R.H. Lee]

The lady at the check place informed me that one was a 32 year old hispanic female and the other was a 37 year old hispanic male. Thats all she was legally allowed to tell me.

So as a crime victim, you're not 'allowed' to know the identities and whereabouts of the criminals? I cannot describe how much that angers me. The inmates are running the asylum.

 

[Daemon688]

Like many of you I have a problem with this administrations current stance on illegal immigration. However, those who are advocating invasion of Mexico....well make me . Instead of starting a war over illegal immigration, the US should be stepping up their restrictions not making it easier to get into the country and by having more border guards. (Heck, if money doesn't permit so many border guards, lets just set up a nice large minefield)

The porous border we have now is a threat to national security and regardless of what people tell you, those illegals are taking jobs from Americans. They argue "well they work the jobs Americans don't want". Maybe those wages would not be so low if we did not have all those illegal immigrants. As a result, these people are being paid under the table without paying taxes. Not only that, these people are also able to utilize our resources such as healthcare. For these reasons, illegal immigrants must be stopped.

If these people want to get in this country, they should wait in line like my grandparents did just like everyone else who immigrated to this country.

 

[longeyes]

Mexico is only doing what we let them do. The problem is "we" aren't "we" any more. The pols aren't listening; the voice of the American people is not being listened to. No doubt the people on this board could come up with a fair and reasonable approach to our immigration and labor issues in pretty short order. There are many "hard" options available before we have to push back across the border. The problems begin when you have policies that conflate, in my view disingenuously, "compassion" with amoral commerce, guided by a government that no longer seems to put American citizens first.

 

[moa]

MACAVADA said:

"Anyone who is:

aged (age 65 or older);
blind; or
disabled."

One other age related category. Any eligible person as early as age 62 can collect reduced SS payments. I understand from the the TV financial adviser Jonathan Pond that 75% of the people getting SS benefits apply at age 62. I suppect they think they had better get theirs while there is SS funds around to distribute.

I will mention this again for food for thought. According to the Comptroller of the US Government, the current national debt, as well as future obligations, amounts to 40 TRILLION dollars. This was stated on 02/01/2004 on the John Mclaughin program by David Walker.

$40 trillion is more than three years of US Gross Domestic Product dollars and about $100,000.00 of public debt owed by every American citizen.

That being the case, the spreading of largesse by Uncle Sugar may not have a happy ending.

Pony up!!!

 

[macavada]

MOA said:

MACAVADA said:

"Anyone who is:

aged (age 65 or older);
blind; or
disabled."

One other age related category. Any eligible person as early as age 62 can collect reduced SS payments. I understand from the the TV financial adviser Jonathan Pond that 75% of the people getting SS benefits apply at age 62. I suppect they think they had better get theirs while there is SS funds around to distribute.

We were talking about SSI. The text isn't really something I said, it is something the SSA says about SSI eligibility. There was a link there where I got the text from. I agree we have a lot of national debt.

Lennyjoe said:

How do I know they were immigrants? The lady at the check place informed me that one was a 32 year old hispanic female and the other was a 37 year old hispanic male. Thats all she was legally allowed to tell me.

I'm sorry about your daughter's problem with someone stealing her social security number. Most illegals use stolen social security numbers in order to secure work. FICA is taken from their wages, and it goes into the system. In some instances there have been allowances for illegals that have been granted amnesty to claim those FICA taxes, and they are allowed to start a SS account with money that was earned while they were illegal. Some call this rewarding them for years of working illegaly in the U.S. I guess the courts must allow it, or congress has approved their ability to re-claim these paid FICA taxes. Your statement provides no proof that the Hispanic male and female were illegal. Perhaps they were. Citizen hispanics also commit crimes.

Tommytrauma said:

I adjudicate disability cases for a living. (Edit - one of two jobs. I also work as a paramedic, and have made reference to that job on this board.) While there are regulations on the books regarding the required legal status for non-citizen claimants, we are often directly prohibited from even asking about status, much less demanding proof. We are also forbidden from sharing any information with immigration or law enforcement except under very limited circumstances. The simple fact is that there are many, many people receiving SSI while illegally in this country.

and yesterday said:

The SSA refers to them as 'Aged non-citizen claims', (They decided in '97 or '98 that the term 'aged alien' was demeaning) and processes them as title 16 disability claims. Since they are over 65 and almost always have a less than 12th grade education, most of them fall under an adverse vocational profile, which means pretty much any medical condition is considered disabling.

Yes, the SSA does allow aged non-citizen claims. They are aliens of a certain allowable status. They don't approve SSI benefits for "illegal" aliens. They don't have to have a disability in order to be eligible for SSI, based on the SSA link I provided. The requirement is that they be an alien of some qualifying status. In order to be approved, all kinds of eligibility requirements must be met, and the case worker goes through the litany of questions, including those that deal with citizenship or alien status. I don't know about your neck of the woods, but they do it down here. I saw your post before your edit. Maybe you do have two jobs, and maybe one of them is an adjudications officer. I'm not sure. Your statement that said that they had to be over 65 AND have a medical condition in order to qualify for SSI is wrong. They can simply be adults or chidren with a disability. They can be over 65 and not have any disability and meet the criteria to qualify for SSI.

It is the responsibility of the SSA administration to verify that the applicant meets the criteria - described in general here. If you are adjudicating SSI cases like you say you are, you could be giving money away unlawfully if you don't consider legal status. People don't just go in and apply, they have to meet the requirements.

Generally, the comment that illegals come here and their "grandparents collect SSI". Is simply wrong. There may be some defrauders, but they aren't legally getting these benefits. With hospital care, the hospitals are required to give them care in emergency situations. Schools allow illegals to get an education. But the SSA or the U.S. government does not have a policy that allows illegals to get SSI. It is simply not the case. In my opinion generally, legal resident aliens and U.S. citizens commit more welfare fraud, require more indigent medical care, commit more identity theft/credit fraud crimes or a per capita basis than illegal aliens do. That's not to say that they don't do any of these things, but they don't do it to the same extent as legal people do. You can add terrorism to that list. The terrorists were here on visas, albeit expired.

As far as credit fraud, most illegal aliens live in a subculture that is afraid to approach government institutions out of fear of discovery and deportation. Even if the institution has a policy of not disclosing to immigration or other authorities, the illegals don't trust individuals not to rat them out. Generally they try to avoid these kinds of encounters that would lead to them getting found out. The use of a false SSN is a necessary requirement in order to secure work.

 

[longeyes]

Well, Macavada, I must say you have certainly put my mind to rest. Not to worry, huh? I can't tell, though, whether you are denying the charges levied here or rationalizing the behavior. Seems both.

You are right about one thing, though you didn't put it the way I will: We have a serious problem with the American courts, who have decided that people here illegally, who have not brought anything to the party, are stil allowed to dance. It is an interesting time indeed when the Law, through its representatives, does not respect itself.

 

[macavada]

The real cause of your heartburn is the policies of this country. But instead, the efforts are spent demonizing the individuals. The symptom of the problem, not the true causes. Efforts would be better spent in othe ways.

Really, I'm sorry I ever got mixed up in these threads. I'll leave you guys to agree among yourselves.

I only got mixed up because I felt a duty to rebut a certain assertion.

I feel sick now after seeing someone on another thread refer to human beings as 3rd world vermin. I guess that is what militia types and those others that advocate shooting on sight and other such intelligent ideas. Kind of a glorious rat shoot, I guess.

With that, I bid the topic of illegal immigration on this forum adieu. I only hope I have the fortitude to stay away.

 

[tommytrauma]

Maybe you do have two jobs, and maybe one of them is an adjudications officer. I'm not sure.

Aren't you able to call me a liar in a more direct manner?

The title is 'Adjudicator', not adjudications officer.

Please check your private messages. You'll find my ssa.gov email address there for any further questions you might have about my two jobs.

 

[macavada]

I need to make an apology to Tommytrauma.

In a previous post I insinuated that he was not what he presented himself to be with regard to being an adjudicator. I didn't want to call him an outright liar, but by using the language I did, I was essentially doing the same thing. I'm sorry for accusing you of not being truthful.

We PM'd a couple of times, and he demonstrated that he was in fact an adjudicator.

I could go on with arguing the point, but to do so would be pointless.

And with this post, again, I vow to never return to the subject of illegal immigration on this board.

 

[Art Eatman]

This general subject has been beaten to death on I don't know how many threads.

So: If it's not directly related to the specific events of the shooting, don't post.

Otherwise, it's delete and lock down.

Art