US agents shot at, tension mounts on Mexico border

[odysseus]

It's not the point of why we should help. It is a question of how. Basically Mexico needs a stronger middle class, and their system is not geared to work in this way thus far. This is a huge socioeconomic issue, one which is mostly theirs to solve and us to assist where we can.

However bottomline, illegal immigration should not be a part of this. It is a weakness in our system to allow this, and rationalizing this as help is a terrible message to communicate. Again, we have legal immigration and work visa programs. It is offensive to those who use the system legally and wait through this. If people want to help, we must do it in the systems we have - or feel free to personally donate to people or causes as you choose. Embracing illegal immigration and not being strong on the subject embraces agenda's which are not a part of real long term solutions to this issue.

i agree with you. people, countries, govts whatever, are responsible for their own actions and the resulting consequences. but there are observable, not excusable, but observable reasons that they ended up that way. we can't fix the world, but we can help address the concerns of what should be our closest ally. drug traffic is bad. substandard education is bad. let's help. or are you of the opinion that we should just let friends flounder? if the idea of decency toward close neighbours doesn't appeal to you, consider what we stand to gain from an economically strong and socially stable country to the south, with whom we might have a sterling relationship.

 

[longeyes]

Should we encourage Mexico's economy? Yes. The problem is, as we have noted in the past with well-intentioned foreign aid and/or investment, is that the monies simply reinforce the existing social structure with all its problems. We want progress in Mexico, not revolution: that means a republican government with respect for individual liberties. What we don't want--but may well get--is a revolution that brings a leftwing government that is even more inimical to American values than the current crowd. We don't want a Cuba at our southern border. There's a failure of imagination in our own policies in terms of inspiring progressive economic development down south. We need to open up Mexican markets more than we have. The values, though, are the real problem: a culture built on la mordida is never going to be a prosperous, peaceful neighbor. How do we change that? Pay me the big bucks and I'll tell you.

 

[odysseus]

And so have they treated us a a resource too. It's a two way street.

fair enough, but we've done more to treat that country like a natural resource than a friend. why would they do anything different in return?

 

[Gunpacker]

gt3944, we are all affected. We pay higher taxes for schools, medical costs, and other tax supported programs that illegals have access to. Many more jobs will fall into the "jobs that Americans won't do" because pay is lowered to the amount that an illegal will accept. Laborers in all walks of life have had their wages diminish because of illegals willing to do them at low wages. What do you expect untrained Americans to do. Some have to do menial jobs, because we sure can't support half the population on welfare. SOMEBODY has to work, and even the high tech jobs are going overseas because they can get it done cheaper there. Those that blithely sit by with their head in the sand while we go deeper and deeper into the doo, are not very clever. There will come a day, (way too soon, I'm afraid) when Americans may be happy to have a fruit picking job. Then we can compete with the illegals to see who will work for the least while the multinational corporations that are the employers wait to reap the rewards.

 

[Pilgrim]

I see that this is going nowhere...but you know what there are no such things or people as Americans except the AMERICAN INDIANS.

Are you sure of this?
Kennewick Man

 

[shermacman]

we should be ignoring china and throwing all of our money and priviledged relationships toward mexico.
i'm not saying the US is responsible for the problems that mexico has, but we could easily, in time, erase many of those problems by bringing them up to speed. if any country deserves exclusive relations with us, it's mexico.

I did read the rest of your post. You contradict yourself, your analysis suggesting that we ignore China is absurd and no, we can not bring Mexico up to our standards. It is not our fault, it is not our responsibility. Only Mexico can bring itself up to our standards. And they have choosen not to.

 

[carlrodd]

And so have they treated us a a resource too. It's a two way street.

that's what i was saying...it's reciprocal. i agree illegal imigration is not acceptable, and supporting illegal immigrants is insanity. i am also not advocating thug governments that steal the hope for decent lives from the people. i'm simply saying that the US has not done much to help the problem. if you think we should not be helping in the first place, that's your entitled opinion. my opinion is that it only makes sense to find ways to support positive socioeconomic development in THAT country. not all countires, specifically that one.

 

[odysseus]

There is a point to that. The longterm effects of continued low level workforce feeds into this country and what this means to the middle class in America. Essentially it's an experiment continuing to be played out. We all know that the economic boom that occured vastly helped those in the higher part of the curve economically, while those who were on the lower part of the curve did not grow as much. Hence the poorer are getting poorer.

Some here have actually said look, we need illegal immigration so I can still have cheap fruit. Are we artificially trying to keep certain markets below economic equilibrium? At what cost? The impact of certain policies can show up much later in different ways. I am not an expert, and their are huge other variables to this. For example, I don't want to see US farms close, and cheap labor be may needed to make sure we protect our own food sources from global economics (don't we subsidize too?), but then we can legally give migrant work forces access to work here too.

Those that blithely sit by with their head in the sand while we go deeper and deeper into the doo, are not very clever. There will come a day, (way too soon, I'm afraid) when Americans may be happy to have a fruit picking job. Then we can compete with the illegals to see who will work for the least while the multinational corporations that are the employers wait to reap the rewards.

 

[carlrodd]

I did read the rest of your post. You contradict yourself, your analysis suggesting that we ignore China is absurd and no, we can not bring Mexico up to our standards. It is not our fault, it is not our responsibility. Only Mexico can bring itself up to our standards. And they have choosen not to.

why is ignoring china absurd. did i miss something when i was sleeping last nite? did china all the sudden become a nation that values civil rights, doesn't continuously pester or test neighbours flaunting it's nuclear capabilities, doesn't hang on to a ridiculously inneffective form of govt that alienates neighbours and keeps a bootheel on the heads of it's citizens, doesn't vote against every worthwhile initiative in the UN simply to thumb it's nose at the west.....and on and on and on. china deserves to be isolated, but we can't resist the cheap labour and cheap manufacturing. THAT's a contradiction. furthermore, china is not a neighbour.

on the other hand, mexico IS a neighbour. if we dedicated as much time and as many resources to considering how we could help OUR neighbour to get itself straightened out, many of these problems being discussed would abate.

 

[odysseus]

if you think we should not be helping in the first place, that's your entitled opinion. my opinion is that it only makes sense to find ways to support positive socioeconomic development in THAT country. not all countires, specifically that one.

Not sure if you were directing that at me or not. Again, I don't think it is a question if we should not help or not. We should. But the question is how.

And often I hear from those soft on illegal immigration from Mexico that we need to help. However it is never put forth of how, with the silence on illegal immigration being too loud to bare - as though allowing this is part of their solution.

 

[RaggedClaws]

but mexico is our next-door neighbour, and our method of being neighbourly is confused and flawed.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: good fences make good neighbors.

 

[carlrodd]

Not sure if you were directing that at me or not. Again, I don't think it is a question if we should not help or not. We should. But the question is how.

And often I hear from those soft on illegal immigration from Mexico that we need to help. However it is never put forth of how, with the silence on illegal immigration being too loud to bare - as though allowing this is part of their solution.

mexico has needs economically. start by identifying the specifics of those needs, and offer assistance contingent upon certain demands on our part. those demands would address needed reforms within the mexican government, assistance with the immigration problem, and helping us get a handle on the drug trade. mexico has a booming drug trade because it's good business. but there are better businesses. we can offer to help develop them so that drugs are a less lucrative option. anyone who is soft on illegal immigration would probably advocate bringing mexico to it's feet at no cost to them. i'm all for holding them accountable. if offered legitimate incentives, that govt will come around.

also, i wasn't directing that comment at you. someone before said we have no business helping.....which is nonsense.....and all fine and good till we need help ourselves.

 

[longeyes]

The way to help any "neighbor" is to stick to your core principles and values. In the case of Mexico that means rejecting illegal immigration and refusing to subsidize their oligarchy. You have to use the leverage and power you have. With China it would mean not endorsing practices in that nation that restrict liberty, as, I read today, Microsoft is doing by aiding and abetting the suppression of free speech by shutting down a dissident website.

No one guarantees us cheap fruit, and we should not permit our nation to crumble for it.

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

i think we are missing the point yes getting their socity back up to where it should be is a concern but we have to treat mexico like we did iraq. once we have control they cna ewlect new officals and ith our help they will gradullay start to build their selves back up but first we have to stop the problem at hand. which is illegal immagration.


the best way i can think to simplfly it is to say "i care about mexico but america comes first"

 

[carlrodd]

long eyes and odysseus, thanks for the thoughful posts. i agree with sticking to core values....we clearly do not do this nearly enough....you might even say we are having trouble remembering what they are. we also need to be realistic about human nature. most people won't change if there is no incentive to. offer incentives that are attainable only if the government addresses it's shortcomings.

 

[carlrodd]

i think we are missing the point yes getting their socity back up to where it should be is a concern but we have to treat mexico like we did iraq. once we have control they cna ewlect new officals and ith our help they will gradullay start to build their selves back up but first we have to stop the problem at hand. which is illegal immagration.


the best way i can think to simplfly it is to say "i care about mexico but america comes first"

are you suggesting that we use our military to force change in mexico?

 

[LAK]

whoever said something about mexicans in the military siding with "their own country"....that is ridiculous and fanciful. first of all, do you even know many mexicans that are in this country? secondly, have you ever served with mexicans in the military, or served at all? generally, what sort of person do you think is drawn to the military that they would do such a thing. silly comments. the large majority of mexicans i know are hard-working, VERY family oriented, and enjoy simple lives. the mexican children in my school are some of the most well behaved, and easily the most well behaved of all the hispanic children. mexico's government is corrupt and is responsible for all of these misconceptions about the actual people. the reason the government is a mess, is because they are acting out in response to being the little red-headed stepchild to the US. our policies with mexico are ill concieved. we should be ignoring china and throwing all of our money and priviledged relationships toward mexico.

i'm not saying the US is responsible for the problems that mexico has, but we could easily, in time, erase many of those problems by bringing them up to speed. if any country deserves exclusive relations with us, it's mexico.

Might be referring to me.

Yes; I have met, known, know, and work with many Americans of hispanic lineage. I have met many Mexicans, here and in Mexico. And it is clear from your comments that you are blissfully unaware of the extent of corruption and organized crime within, around or otherwise connected to the Mexican government and it's agencies.

And yes, I've done my military service thank you
---------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[PCGS65]

thats another story which you have to take up with the people hiring them so that they can lower wages(mainly the money hungry employers)...but to say its ok to shoot them when crossing the border, I dont think is right....

gt3944 when illegals are shooting at our border patrol to get here illegally, and by the way shooting at US border patrol is illegal also. Then tell them to stop putting their lives and US border patrol lives in danger by shooting their way across the border.
After all the US border patrol isn't shooting their way into mexico their simply defending themself, and that's right.

 

[Silent-Snail]

One question all the people in here complaining;I really want to know....how many of you all, have been affected by the people crossing the border to come do the jobs none of you all want to do...well come on speak up let me hear it...

Me.

Just because I dont want to work somewhere it doesn't mean I won't try to get one. So There

 

[armoredman]

The prison system in Arizona has many many Mexican nationas, so many we have separate units of nothing BUT Pisas. The tensions caused between the nationals and Mexican Americans is always a match ready to strike. A couple of units got locked down for weeks last year due to disturbances between the nationals and MAs. These are not illegal humbly crossing the border looking for work - these are vicious criminals looking to rob, rape, and kill. Look at your own state prison records - public knowledge - and see what the percentage of Mexican Nationals is in YOU system.
We tried to work with Mexico, build a jointly run prison inside Mexico, and they screamed it was a deadly insult, and wouldn't hear any more.

 

[Kodiaz]

My job is affected by illegal immigration. I'm an A/C man I grew in the trade and that's why it became my career. But illegals are used to do installations and they pay them nothing. So american installers had to leave the trade because they couldn't make a decent living as an installer and didn't have the skills or training to be a service mechanic. Because the illegals make nothing it holds down my wages. Unfortunately for you people with the brains to fix a busted A/C unit heater or boiler have the same kind of problem solving ability as a computer guy. So the people that become technicians now are of much lower intelligence and class. It's amazing how many people I meet in the trade now that look like punk rockers, or are convicts, or just have no clue how an A/C system works. Which really means you just get inferior service. And A/C is a hard trade you have to know a ton of stuff to be good anyway. You have to bust your hump and you have to put up with customers whining. But here's the kicker you have to be ON CALL. When your on call you can't do anything because that phone can ring any minute and then you have to go run a call so you give up your freedom for a week at a time. Which is why A/C service techs are getting harder and harder to find. Have fun if your A/C breaks

 

[SCI]

One question all the people in here complaining;I really want to know....how many of you all, have been affected by the people crossing the border to come do the jobs none of you all want to do...well come on speak up let me hear it...

well i have been affected by paying tax's to support the ppl who SHOULD be doing the work
my feeling is its a welfare problem not an immigration one

 

[Art Eatman]

Until the Mexicans themselves change their socio-economic structure, there's nothing any outsider can do to improve things there. Until the Mexicans themselves change their body of law, there's nothing any outsider can do to improve things there.

The whole package that is Mexico is inhibitory for the creation of an economic middle class. As shown in Europe, the U.S. and Canada, it's the middle class that makes a country work.

Mexico has oil, timber, fertile lands, precious metals and a work force with a strong work ethic. The assets are there. That's fact. So, what else besides what I've mentioned above can be the cause of the exodus? It's sure as heck not the behavior of other countries.

Art

 

[longeyes]

Mexico needs a middle-class, and we need to practice tough love, otherwise they'll never have the incentive to develop one. Allowing millions of their people to come here, depress our wages, send billions of dollars back home, and still feel "Mexican" is no solution--for either country. Would that we had a President and Congress that put America's needs first and realized that forcing Mexico to stand on its own and solve its own problems is the most neighborly thing we can do for them.

 

[wingman]

The whole package that is Mexico is inhibitory for the creation of an economic middle class. As shown in Europe, the U.S. and Canada, it's the middle class that makes a country work.

Exactly Art, and that is my concern for this country, freedom lies within
the middle class.