Attn: Forensic experts/Medical trained professionals

[Carl]

I've been reading the Bud Dwyer thread and it reminded me of a thread I meant to start a while ago, and since that thread isn't locked and the thread starter isn't being ripped a new one (at least not by everyone) I figure perhaps this thread would be considered appropriate as well.

I've been writing a novel for the past year, and it's considered a western/pioneer story.

Now here's the part that keeps it gun related: I've been trying to keep it as factual as possible when it comes to the firearms and their biological effects on people. Mostly how much damage certain calibers can have on certain parts of the body at certain distances. This isn't out of morbid curiosity, it's research for my story and my determination to keep things as real as possible, (mostly to avoid silly things that have been seen in movies like Open Range where a shotgun blows a man five feet, or a pistol shot to the head just makes a nice little hole in the forehead.

I'm not looking for pictures of gunshot wounds, we don't need to have those posted here. I'm simply looking for descriptions. The story involves a few gun related deaths with classic firearms such as the 1866 Winchester and the 1860 colt army.

Here is what I need:

The effects of the 1866 Winchester chambered in .44-40 shot to the head at approximately fifteen feet. I'm not sure on what kind of loads they had, perhaps they just had fmj's?

The effects of an 8 gauge shotgun loaded with custom made 00 buckshot shells to the head and stomach approximately 5 feet away.

The effects of the Colt Army model 1860 chambered in .44. to the top of the head at approximately five feet away.

The effects of a Winchester model 1886 chambered in .45-70 to the shoulder from behind at approximately 40 feet away.

There might be more but as of now I can't recall and will post more if they come to me.

I hope this thread is considered appropriate due to its initial purpose of research and hopefully I can get what I'm looking for.

 

[koginam]

You are asking for a graphic description so here goes.

On second thought I'll PM you.

1866 was chambered in 44RF

 

[JR47]

All of the scenarios would produce death. The last MIGHT allow the injured party to live a couple of hours, maybe a day. The medical abilities in the time period of these weapons couldn't deal with such trauma.

 

[Jeff White]

The effects of an 8 gauge shotgun loaded with custom made 00 buckshot shells to the head and stomach approximately 5 feet away.

What is a custom loaded 00 buckshot shell?

It would require two separate shots to hit both the head and the stomach at 5 feet. The "pattern" would still only be the size of the bore.

Unless they were on an extremity that could be amputated, most gunshot wounds were not survivable in the time period you are writing about. There were no antibiotics and few anesthetics. If a would was not immediately fatal, infection usually was. Hollywood depicts a big rush to remove the bullet. However the bullets were usually relatively sterile from the heat generated in firing them. The big danger was the bits and pieces of cloth that were pulled into the wound. They were the cause of the infection and without antibiotics it was usually fatal.

 

[Carl]

I'm assuming when 8 gauge was being used, it was for hunting fowl, therefore the shots would be smaller pellets and not large ones like buckshot so the owner of the shotgun removed the smaller pellets and custom made his own shots by replacing it with 00 buckshot. I guess that could work right? And yes, the 8 gauge was shot twice.

 

[qwert65]

speaking medically, I agree all those wounds would be fatal 99% of the time. There are plenty of stories of men surviving catastrophic wounds. even to the head, even during the civil war period(In fact a lot of times no treatment was better than what they prescribed)

Obvisouly a shot to the stomach was very dangerous w/o Abx

 

[Carl]

The man that was shot with the 8 gauge died instantly after the shot to the head. There is only perhaps a minute's time between the stomach shot and the head shot. But at that distance, I know the shot would only be about as big as the bore, but I also should take in account the damage from the gasses since it's a close shot.

The Winchester 1866 is chambered in .44 rf, so how similar is that round to the .44-40? I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to period rounds, I thought that the 1886 Winchester was chambered for .45-70 among other large calibers, and that the 1866 was chambered for .44-40. I guess I need a history lesson as well.

 

[JR47]

The 5th edition of Cartridges of the World says the 44 Henry spit a 200 gr bullet at a blistering 1150 fps.

Does that help?

 

[LWGN]

V J M Di Maio - Gunshot Wounds - Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques 2nd edition

Some light reading on the subject.

 

[Treo]

John Wesley Hardin was reputed to have survived being gut shot W/ a shotgun at close range. The biggest problem W/ the abdominal wound would be peritonitis and massive infection if the contents of the intestines leaked into the abdominal cavity. Not a pretty way to go

I would think assuming cast lead slugs the rifle shot would take the arm off. If not that arm would never work right again.

 

[loneviking]

The shoulder shot is the only survivable one IF no artery is hit. If a lung is hit, the guy might drown choking on his blood. The others result in death and gruesome, bloody wounds.

Speaking of survivability, back in the 70's I met an old Arizona Ranger. Back in the 30's,(still in law enforcement but the Rangers were disbanded by then) he was ambushed down near the Mexican border and shot five times with a 30-30 at close range. He was left for dead, crawled for about a 1/2 mile to a paved road where he was picked up and taken to a hospital. Three of the slugs left puckered exit wounds almost the size of a fifty cent piece. Some of these ol' boys were tough!

 

[Carl]

Alright, from what I've gathered, here is what I'm gonna describe in the story:

The weapon that shotat the shoulder from 40 feet away is never described, (mostly since the man getting shot was too busy worrying about getting shot to describe the make and model of the rifle) he will instantly lose usage of that limb for his shoulder is destroyed.

The 8 gauge shot to the stomach at that close of a distance will leave a large burned hole to the stomach cavity due to the expanding gasses, and the head shot will basically blow everything above the lower jaw away.

The 1866 Winchester shot to the head from approximately 15 feet away (or whatever I said) will leave a bullet sized entrance would and the exit would will be significantly larger, perhaps the size of a silver dollar.

The colt army model 1860 will blow off a piece of the top part of the skull from approximately the distance of 5 feet.

I guess that'll work. If anything I'd be ridiculed more for having people use the wrong calibers for weapons than I'd be for not being totally factual when it comes to the wounds. Thank you all for helping me, I'll let you know when it's published (or if I should say)

 

[jason10mm]

The "shoulder" is actually a large group of parts with some major nerves and blood vessels. The very lateral area is just muscle (the deltoids) which could be hit and still be pretty survivable. You could probably even raise your arm (anterior delts are right over the shoulder joint), though not "chickenwing" out the entire arm. A hit straight on the upper humerus would undoubtedly break it. But you might still have some mobility as the muscles and tendons might hold the bone stable, swelling and hemorrhage would help. A hit just inside the socket would break the collar bone and perhaps the scapula. There are some large blood vessels just under the collarbone (subclavian to the axillary) that if lacerated by the bullet or shards of bone could cause life threatening blood loss. A hit from the rear might just richochet OFF the scapula, particularly if it is from an oblique angle, though it would leave a nasty channel through the muscle of the back. All the nerves to the arm and hand run along the inside of the trapezius and then down between the shoulder blade and the collar bone to the inside of the arm. Damage those and it is game over for use of the hand.

Anyway, get a good anatomy book (I like Netters) and it will help you figure out what to describe being hit.

As for all those head shots, old west loads were primarily cast lead bullets are relatively low velocity, IIRC, so there could be little apparant effect to being shot in the head, other than lights out for the victim. The base of the skull is THICK, so I doubt it would penetrate through. At 5 feet most of the gas should dissipate, so no brains should blow back on the shooter (saw that once, nasty!). The rifles probably don't have the velocity for explosive effects on the skull. I wouldn't automatically assume over penetration either. I would expect the head to snap back, but it isn't going to throw the body anywhere.

Shotgun to the head might be a different story, as the pellets in front can pave the way for pellets in back. If the forehead or face are fractured by the first few pellets, overpenetration from the back could happen. To the abdomen it would depend on the body habitus. An obese guy can absorb the pellets, a really thin guy might have some overpenetration. I know birdshot to the chest will scatter across the back of the rib cage and fan out without much overpenetration, even at point blank range, but buckshot might have enough mass to get through, particularly in the belly of the thin man. If his liver is hit that can cause massive rapid blood loss, as obviously is hitting the aorta. But intestinal wounds can ooze while you wait for the bacterially infested stool to get to work on you.

Anyway, just remember that most folks who are shot might FALL down, but they are rarely KNOCKED down. They usually live to move somewhere else, and it is the mindset that keeps them going. Read about cop shootings or all the military stuff out now to see how folks really react. Hollywood likes their deaths nice and neat.