Followed by a tailgater!

Status
Not open for further replies.
As others have pointed out the nearest police station is the place to head instead of home, however the local fire department would also work, there are always people there.

on a side note, I have been told that the firehouses have firearms but not sure if I believe this care to enlighten me?
 
on a side note, I have been told that the firehouses have firearms but not sure if I believe this care to enlighten me?

Fire marshals carry firearms on duty, and yes, they have the same authority as police officers, they CAN make arrests. So a fire marshal will definetely be able to help you out if you happen to be in an area with no police officers or police stations.
 
I doubt you'd be justified shooting him for smashing windows. That's something for the cops to deal with and your insurance should cover it. Tactically, when you were home and he returned you should have gone BACK INSIDE and secured a LONG GUN while your wife called the police. Let him scream and bash the car, but if he smashes through the door with the bat kill him.

By staying outside you remained exposed to attack and you limited yourself to a very inferior CCW instead of a more potent firearm. I wouldn't want to put odds on a fight between a baseball bat and a NAA mini.
 
Watch out in Washington State. Yes they issue carry permits but they don't want you using that gun to protect yourself. You can bet if you shot him you would have been arrested. This is an overly liberal state and the crooks have more rights than you. As a matter of fact, even if you don't use your gun and get involved in any kind of legal incident they will use your carry license against you. They know they can arrest you and because your record was clean up to this point you will pay anything to keep it that way. This is where a carry permit works against you. They know you will pay to keep it and believe me you will.

I am speaking from personal experience and the same thing happened to my brother. Each of us on separate incidents were falsely accused of assault. In both cases a spouse lied and made false testimonies. In both cases the cops came and there wasn't even a mark on the lying "victims". The cops say that if their is ANY REMOTE POSSIBILITY they thought you might have illegally touched someone they will issue a citation and probably press charges. If this happens to someone with a rap sheet they will just plea bargain down to a stupid disorderly conduct charge. The cops know you want a totally clean record so they harass you into hiring an expensive lawyer to keep that record squeaky clean.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose" - Janis Joplin
 
I doubt you'd be justified shooting him for smashing windows. That's something for the cops to deal with and your insurance should cover it. Tactically, when you were home and he returned you should have gone BACK INSIDE and secured a LONG GUN while your wife called the police. Let him scream and bash the car, but if he smashes through the door with the bat kill him.

By staying outside you remained exposed to attack and you limited yourself to a very inferior CCW instead of a more potent firearm. I wouldn't want to put odds on a fight between a baseball bat and a NAA mini.

You need to go back and re-read the post. He went home thought he had lost the guy. Went back out and guy had the road blocked.
 
Watch out in Washington State. Yes they issue carry permits but they don't want you using that gun to protect yourself. You can bet if you shot him you would have been arrested.

Yes, but he would be alive to be arrested.

Often is the case that folks who use lethal force in self defense, especially guns, do get arrested. It is just part of the process until the cops figure out things. Just because a supposed good guy claims to be the good guy doesn't mean he is. So the cops have to work out things.

I am speaking from personal experience and the same thing happened to my brother. Each of us on separate incidents were falsely accused of assault. In both cases a spouse lied and made false testimonies. In both cases the cops came and there wasn't even a mark on the lying "victims".

That is amazing. You and your brother had the exact same circumstances for being arrested in different incidents?? :scrutiny:

FYI, there doesn't have to be a mark on a person for assault. You can has assault without battery.
 
Not the way I would have handled the situation, the laws in my state, and my personality are different.....but look at the results.

You and your family are safe, with no lasting ill effects, all is well. Good Job,
 
Additionally, you can tell if someone is following you by making four right turns in a row. If he follows, then you and he, have just made a circle, and you should proceed to a police station or a brightly lit area with lots of people, like right in front of a Walmart.
That may work in cities, but not so much in a rural setting.
 
I will disagree with many of the replies. As I understand it, you were being tailgated by a ordinary jerk. You had no reason to suspect that he intended to threaten you, because sometimes jerks follow you for awhile to intimidate you. Not unusual. Most jerks are blowhards. You went home. Maybe not the best choice, but that's what you did. Fine, I'm not criticizing that because it is not germane to the substance of your question. You didn't know he was waiting for you when you got back in the car.

Perhaps you could have retreated back home and perhaps not. I don't clearly understand from your account whether or not you had that option. If you did not, you did not.... and that's that.

Assuming you were stuck where you were and could not retreat, he comes on with the bat. You had what you had in terms of a weapon. No criticism from me there. You make do with what you have.

I believe that I would have let him bang the on car and windows, because perhaps he would have given up after a few blows, having made his jerk point. That is, if you were really stuck and could not retreat by putting the car in reverse. If you coulda, you probably shoulda. But let's just assume you couldn't. Either way, you found yourself where you found yourself and you didn't do anything "wrong" and in no way deserved what came.

Had a window been broken, I would then have feared for the safety of myself and my family and would have felt justified shooting him. Any reasonable person would agree that severe bodily harm was imminent. That would have been sufficient justification for me. I would not have waited any longer and there would have been no more "benefit of the doubt" for the jerk-turned-assailant. At some point, I say you simply need to stop thinking, make a decision on a course of action.... and then simply act. And I really believe that I would have shot him.

Your situation struck me because I was myself in a very similar situation before cell phones. Stuck in traffic in a busy city neighborhood. Could not go forward, could not go back. No retreat except for perhaps getting out of the car and trying to outrun him. Obvious drug head behind me who was pissed about something I must have done in traffic gets out of his car and starts banging hard on my drivers side window with a knife butt screaming "I'm gonna kill you, MF", etc. I remained calm. He kept amping up the threats and the pounding. When I saw him get out of the car, I had enough time to rack a round into the chamber. I stared straight ahead, avoiding eye contact. I said nothing and did not engage in any way. Had the pistol off safety under my right thigh holding it with my right hand. I didn't want him to see the gun. I really doubted that the window would hold. I decided then and there that if he broke the window, I would shoot him. Twice. I would not have waited for further justification or for the events to get worse. I can't believe how calm I was during.....but I was really freaked afterwards.

Like you, I couldn't believe that some jerk would go to this far over the top over nothing. It took me a few seconds to get past that and to face the threat for what it in fact was. And I also still can't believe how clear my thinking was and how quickly the decision came. Time slowed down to nothing. It really did. I have no regrets whatsoever of the course of action I chose, although I am really thankful I didn't have to shoot.

As it turned out, several people had stopped on the sidewalk and gathered during the spectacle. I believe the crowd amassing is what convinced him to give it up. Traffic started moving, and so did I.
 
My dad and I have a technique for dealing with people who tailgate us and then follow us for miles with fingers and flashing lights and such (we've had it happen a few times)...

The most common thing I do (or he does, it is originally his move) is to decide to move his gun from his holster to the glovebox, and accidentally yawn in the process, stretching his right hand (the hand with the gun) up towards the roof of the car, about a hand's distance away from the rear view mirror.

That almost never fails to get a maniac off our tail.



We had this one whacko once, who apparently wanted us to go more than five over the posted limit (we were already five over) and he kept riding about twelve inches off our bumper, with his girlfriend pointing, while he started to laugh and give us gestures. My dad and I happened to be on the way to the shooting range and we had at least seven weapons in the car, so we just did the old "yawn" trick and then my dad pulled over to let the idiot get by us. He did just that, he went by us, rather than trying to pull over and get out of the car to escalate the trouble.
 
By the way, for the sake of the children I would not have let him bash in a window on the car. You can not let you children be exposed to that violence, as they were in the car and defaulted to being object of the attack. The damage to their faith in you, and your wife, protecting them at that age is irreplaceable in my opinion.
 
What gets me is Idiots that would start a life threatening situation over something so stupid and trivial. I've long believed that a certain percentage of the population isn't any smarter or more self aware than your average housedog, My current stint as a juror has only reinforced this.

Were I in your situation this bonehead would have been literally one step or threat away from being shot and or run over.......possibly both!
 
axehead,

Great wife you've got there, mate. Might want to reconsider that little NAA mini-mag tho. They are cute and better than nothing... I'll give ya that.
So, as he approached the car...
Uh, axe... you were inside a weapon...

Besides all of the other good advice posted above, always remember to call the Police ASAP after something like that occurs. He who calls first and all that.

All's well that ends well.
 
New Mexico case law considers a baseball bat to be a deably weapon. Sorry, I cannot recall the citation just now but I did read part of the case once. Not that it makes me an expert. Deadly weapons are largely a matter of intent; e.g. a ball point pen in the right hands can be a Deadly Weapon. A lot depends upon the level of threat you feel and if another reasonable person might perceive the same threat level under similar circumstances.

Now, I have disarmed both a bat wielding dingbat and a pool cue stick wielding drunken dope. You have to evaluate how much of a threat this guy is; can you take him in hand to hand and expect to prevail? You have no obligation to join battle. However, if he is a dwarf with a wooden leg you might have a lot of explaining as to why he got both barrels of a 12 guage coach gun.
 
eotechrules all....round here, your tailgating solution is known as brandishing a firearm and can land one in some serious hot water.
if someone is stupid enough to tailgate, than they certainly would have no qualms about calling the cops to get the last word in on you. after all, they are looking right at your license plate.

OP...tell your wife that she did good...sounds like she's a quick thinker. she de-escalated the situation for you.
thanks for sharing this experience with us. gonna make my better half read it tomorrow!
 
Brandishing? Not at all, in the process of putting away a firearm, involuntary yawning occurs...

It ends escalation and it gets the guy who has been following you for the last twenty minutes, off your bumper and away from you.

Everybody wins because the idiot doesn't feel so powerful and big that he tries to do something that would end with his being shot.


:D
 
axehead, first of all, welcome to THR.

second, good job on coming out on top with no one hurt. Pyle already posted your state's laws, so it seems like you would be in the clear. I cannot fault you for going home, as it obviously seemed like the perp had stopped tailgating.

Carry more gun if you can. I never go out with anything smaller than a Taurus MilPro, though more often than not, I carry my P99 instead. Having a gun that looks intimidating is preferable. It's nice to resolve a situation without poking holes in someone's chest.

However, a baseball bat is MOST CERTAINLY a deadly weapon, in any case. You should have drawn the moment he stepped out with it. Not fired mind you, just met his presentation of deadly force with your own. If he goes for you or the car, fire. Your car had kids in it, and no jury would see that as an unjustifiable shoot.
 
So, here's the question, beyond just the retelling of the event. I'm in Washington state. What level of force is appropriate if bonehead started smashing my windows with his bat?

Anyone smashing your car window while you are in it is not simply vandalizing property, he is attemting to get at you.

Calling 911 was the right thing to do.

If he hit the window, I would have responded with lethal force. However, I think in this situation my tool of choice would have been the car itself, not the NAA
 
By the way, for the sake of the children I would not have let him bash in a window on the car. You can not let you children be exposed to that violence, as they were in the car and defaulted to being object of the attack. The damage to their faith in you, and your wife, protecting them at that age is irreplaceable in my opinion
- Acera - I agree completely with that. In Florida we have very generous gun laws. Thank god.

Thankfully, here in Florida, the no-retreat law was passed recently. In Florida you are allowed to shoot when a person is within swinging distance when armed with a blunt object. So you would have been well within your rights here in Florida if they were going to break the windows of your vehicle to possibly assault your family. If they have a knife, I believe it is 21 feet.
 
My problem is not that he was carrying an NAA. Nor do I have a large problem with going back out, wince the perp didn't seem to make the actual location of the house. The problem I have here is that AFTER being followed by this reject, the OP didn't up-arm himself before going back out again.
 
I was once followed by some kids in a riced out honda civic who wanted to race me.( I drive a 95 pontiac grand am. It's stock its certainly not a race car.) they got about a foot off my bumper on the highway and were trying to throw soda bottles at my car. as i pulled out my cellphone to call the police they pulled up next to me. when they saw the phone they floored it and took off. I told the dispatcher the plate number and saw them pulled over standing with their hands on the roof of the car about 10 miles farther down the road. Unfortunately i was only 19 at the time so i could not legally carry but that was one of the main reasons i got my CCW. if they had not run off when i called the police im sure they would have tried to run me off of the road or would have surely caused some kind of accident.

Never go home, never egg them on and once you are positive they are following you call the police or drive to the station.
too many people these days get way to angry about small things while driving.
 
Rachen said:
Fire marshals carry firearms on duty, and yes, they have the same authority as police officers, they CAN make arrests. So a fire marshal will definetely be able to help you out if you happen to be in an area with no police officers or police stations.
Be careful about extrapolating. New York is one of a very few jurisdictions in which fire marshals are sworn law enforcement and authorized to carry firearms. I have lived in five states, and in none of them was a fire marshal a sworn officer. I served on a committee with a retired NYC fire marshal and when he told us he had arrest authority as a F.M. you could hear jaws hittting the floor all around the table. My sense from him at the time was that NY was about the only place in the country where that held true.
 
It apprars that his family was in the car, so letting him smash the windows was not an option. I could be wrong, but I reread his first post again.

- Sig
 
The ASPCA has sworn officers. Big Deal; stay within the law.



Follow the advice listed above, don't go home, go someplace safely well lit. You're wife handled the situation ideally. :)
 
The only time I have ever come close to shooting somebody on the road would be back when I was about 14 years old.

I was with my mother, she was driving me from Ohio to Illinois to spend a part of the summer with her. I had a handgun, a rifle, and a shotgun in the SUV. There was a pickup truck from Georgia towing a long rectangular/flat box-type trailer that was perhaps as long as 2.5 pickup trucks, but it was not a semi. we were going about 5-8 miles per hour over the speed limit (in the left lane) and for about a few miles he kept making gestures at us, waving his arms and all sorts of nonsense.

Finally we begin to cross a bridge, he is right alongside us on the right and he speeds ahead and pulls right in front of us in a sort of diagonal fashion, cutting his wheels and causing his trailer to come slamming into our lane. My mother nearly had to put her SUV up against the railing of the bridge to avoid being hit as this guy occupied almost the entirety of our lane with his trailer move, and the guy clearly knew what he had done as he turned around and started smiling and openly laughing at us.

I then asked my mom if she wanted me to reach in the back seat and bring up my rifle, slap a 30 rounder into it, and start shooting before the guy tried some other insane assault with his vehicle.

She told me not to do any such thing and to just call the police. I called the police right as we were crossing from Indiana to Illinois and they declared that little could be done, blah blah blah, by the time they'd get word to the proper station and units were directed to the area, etc, etc, the guy would be long gone and that was that. Final word, the police did absolutely nothing, despite the fact we had plate numbers and a general description of the vehicle. We NEVER heard back from the police.


I'm not sure what the legal ramifications of opening fire would have been. I would say the man was clearly trying to kill us as he tried to run us off the road when we were on a bridge. Probably not good since they'd say that we could have just stopped and let him get far ahead of us. However I'd wager if we stopped, he might have done something or come after us in some vehicular fashion as a sitting target is easier to get at. Who can really say. I suppose I'm glad I wound up not shooting him, but I can't help but think that at some point since then, or perhaps some point yet to come, that guy either has killed somebody with his insane recklessness, or he will kill somebody.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top