Army tragedies lead to weapons training reform

[Drizzt]

Army tragedies lead to weapons training reform

By Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
Tue May 10, 6:21 AM ET

Army Capt. James Shull died of a gunshot wound to his head as he was on a routine patrol in Baghdad on Nov. 17, 2003.

The fatal wound came not from an Iraqi insurgent but from one of his own men, who, an Army investigation determined, had carelessly tossed his M-16 rifle into the back of his Humvee without activating the rifle's safety switch. The gun went off, shooting Shull, who died instantly.

The account of his death was provided by Sandy Shull, his mother, who said she hopes that by speaking out she can help prevent future incidents.

Her son, 32, left a wife and three children.

"Can you imagine, killing someone like that?" Shull said during a telephone interview from her home in Kamiah, Idaho.

Shull said she wrote the soldier a letter of forgiveness and, through religious faith, is looking forward to the day she and her son are reunited in heaven.

"I don't have any animosity toward the soldier who did it," she said. "Of course, we wish he had been more careful."

In the 18 months since Shull died, the Army has changed its training methods to cut down on such deadly incidents, known as "negligent discharges." Enlisted recruits now go through new safety programs at all training bases, and new officers perform new weapons-handling drills. (Related story: Army revises weapons training)

Since 2002, as many as 16 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by negligent discharges, including 11 Army soldiers, according to Pentagon statistics. An additional 121 in Iraq have been wounded. The Army began looking into ways to stress weapons safety four years ago when Lt. Gen. David Barno, then a training commander in South Carolina, recommended that recruits carry their weapons at all times.

Hampered by old rules

Cold War-era regulations stymied the initial efforts of Barno, who went on to command U.S. troops in Afghanistan. Soldiers had long been prohibited from keeping control of weapons for long periods of time. Concern that rifles would be either lost or stolen led the Army to keep them locked up. Those rules were eased about six months ago, and now Army recruits keep their weapons 24 hours a day in a program called "weapons immersion."

Officials at Fort Jackson, S.C., Barno's old base, said the new procedures seem to have made a difference with recruits. Col. Jay Chambers, who commands a training brigade, said there has only been one negligent rifle discharge in his brigade since he took command last summer.

Besides the emotional costs for the families of soldiers killed by accidental shootings, the accidents can also crush morale, said Col. Kevin Shwedo, a senior Army training official at Fort Monroe, Va.

While Shwedo was a young captain commanding armored troops in Germany in the early 1980s, a young soldier carrying an M-60 machine gun stumbled while running up a flight of stairs and inadvertently fired his weapon, instantly killing one of his buddies a few feet away. The incident devastated the entire unit, Shwedo said.

Driving the point home

Now, the Army issues blanks with new recruits at boot camp as part of a new policy to drive home the consequences of sloppy habits. When recruits fire their weapons accidentally, even with blanks, they must write a letter home to the family of their "victim."

Commanders in Iraq have taken steps as well.

David Martin, a safety manager for allied troops in Iraq, said U.S. forces conducted a "safety stand-down" in February to stress safe weapons handling. Martin said the most recent fatal accidental shooting in Iraq occurred about a month ago. Martin said he did not know whether the new emphasis has resulted in a drop in injuries or deaths.

Many of the incidents have occurred, Martin said, when new units arrive and face immediate stress from fighting a 24-hour-a-day insurgency.

Capt. Todd Lindner, who commands a Kentucky Army National Guard MP company, said his unit had two negligent weapons discharges shortly after deploying, with no injuries.

Fatigue has been a problem, Lindner said. His soldiers typically work 15- to 16-hour days.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...oday/armytragediesleadtoweaponstrainingreform

 

[english kanigit]

That's a mighty good idea with the blanks, I think. I suppose this could be a side effect of the "cold range" mentality were the only time you get ammo is on the firing line...
Just me thoughts.....







"I am the only person in this barracks who is qualified to carry an m16..."

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The fatal wound came not from an Iraqi insurgent but from one of his own men, who, an Army investigation determined, had carelessly tossed his M-16 rifle into the back of his Humvee without activating the rifle's safety switch. The gun went off, shooting Shull, who died instantly.

This is not a new problem -- there were accidents like that 40 years ago. As a company commander, I required NCOs to have their troops clear weapons before putting them down. In the field, rifles were carried with magazines inserted, but chamber empty. Troops chambered a round on orders from an NCO.

My company, which had had two NDs (one fatal) before I took over, had none after that.

 

[George S.]

I was assigned to a support unit near Long Bihn when I was in RVN in 68-69. The CO ordered all weapons locked up in the unit arms rooms except for guard duty or those that were kept in perimeter bunkers that were manned 24/7. Our shop had a couple of .45's that we carried when outside the compound if we had to travel through towns that were VC-sympathetic.

One night, there was a pretty large sapper attack about a mile from us and we received word that the VC involved was moving in our direction. The CO and Exec ordered weapons to be issued and they couldn't find the aromorer! Turns out he was on guard duty and he had the keys to the arms room in his pocket instead of them hanging where they should have been. Took almost 20 minutes to get weapons issued and get out to our perimiter defense.

The next morning, the CO authorized the issuing of weapons to all individuals along with a basic load of ammo. We all had M-14's and mine had a selector switch.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The solution to the problem is not locking up weapons or ammo (that's what the Marine commander did at Beruit -- and look what happened there!)

The solution is proper supervision and discipline. If leaders set and enforce standards, troops will comply and learn.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Isn't there something wrong with a rifle that fires when it is dropped or tossed into a truck? Even without the safety engaged, dropping a rifle shouldn't cause it to discharge.

 

[brickeyee]

"Isn't there something wrong with a rifle that fires when it is dropped or tossed into a truck? Even without the safety engaged, dropping a rifle shouldn't cause it to discharge."


Many weapons will fire with the safety off if struck hard enough.
Weapons with exposed hammers have added mechanical devices (transfer bars, hammer blocks) to prevent firing by striking the hammer, but few rifles have anything except the safety.

Even with the safety on it is just plain stupid to toss a loaded weapon about. Mechanical devices fail.

If the weapon is rattling around loose in a vehicle there is no guarantee the safety will even stay in the safe position.

 

[Langenator]

Actually, in addition to writing a letter to the family of the "victim," any soldiers who has a negligent discharge while in training goes back to Day One and starts basic training all over again, because they obviously haven't learned how to safely handle a weapon and need more training.

At least, that's how we do it at Ft Jackson.

 

[jefnvk]

Isn't there something wrong with a rifle that fires when it is dropped or tossed into a truck? Even without the safety engaged, dropping a rifle shouldn't cause it to discharge.

My guess it that when tossed, the trigger caught on something.

But that is not the real issue. Maybe if they came down harder on potential liabilities (walking around with your finger on the trigger, sweeping people, etc), it would get them in the mindset to prevent things like this.

 

[Model520Fan]

I call "Bulls***" on the whole discussion. What are these guys? Israelis? Homeboys? Throwing M16's? Those are weapons, not double-wrapped sacks of rice, or sandbags. I wouldn't handle an UNLOADED weapon like that. The whole ******* platoon with its platoon leader needs to be recycled through bootcamp, and if that's not enough, the bootcamp needs to be overhauled. The guilty party needs to be court-martialed, and the results of his court-martial need to be widely publicized. People who don't know how to handle guns should be taught how, including judicious application of shoe leather, before they are allowed to handle them on their own.

I would expect to hear many concurring opinions on a gun-nut site.

 

[20cows]

Actually, in addition to writing a letter to the family of the "victim," any soldiers who has a negligent discharge while in training goes back to Day One and starts basic training all over again, because they obviously haven't learned how to safely handle a weapon and need more training.

My nephew who went through basic last August, said they had a way of keeping track of the blanks you were issued and if you didn't have all your were supposed to have when they checked, even if nobody heard it go off, you were in deep do. (see above)

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I call "Bulls***" on the whole discussion. What are these guys? Israelis? Homeboys? Throwing M16's? Those are weapons, not double-wrapped sacks of rice, or sandbags. I wouldn't handle an UNLOADED weapon like that. The whole ******* platoon with its platoon leader needs to be recycled through bootcamp, and if that's not enough, the bootcamp needs to be overhauled. The guilty party needs to be court-martialed, and the results of his court-martial need to be widely publicized. People who don't know how to handle guns should be taught how, including judicious application of shoe leather, before they are allowed to handle them on their own.

You're not wrong -- but in today's world, where you can put a cup of hot coffee in your crotch, pop the clutch, and then sue, personal responsibility is not a big part of a young man's upbringing.

You have to use discipline and training. You have to make the NCOs do their job. And you have to make sure they do it.

 

[30 cal slob]

Geez, I wonder what happens when GI's start tossing some of the heavier weapons into the truck like that. Like a grenade launcher or something like that.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I can assure you that it does -- I know of two instances where an M79 went off that way, once in a C-130 and once in a Swift Boat. Luckily, each time the grenade impacted a structural member before it armed.

 

[ID_shooting]

hmmm, CO shot in the back, soldier "dropped" weapon. Somthing stinks in the desert. How many troops have "tripped" and shot somone in the back in the history of firearm armed militaries.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

hmmm, CO shot in the back, soldier "dropped" weapon. Somthing stinks in the desert. How many troops have "tripped" and shot somone in the back in the history of firearm armed militaries.

Literally thousands -- I have personally investigated more than I care to mention, and almost all were simply lousy, sloppy gun-handling.

 

[shermacman]

This never happened in the Civil War. There were never any accidental explosions or horse stampedes or broken axles.

During the First World War transport ships never sunk due to storms or a captain's incompetence.

During the Second World War there were never any problems with communication between different countries.

During Korea there were never any problems with the military and any foreign governments.

During Vietnam there were never any problems between the American people and our fighting forces.

If there are any problems today, it is George W. Bush's fault. Period.

 

[g56]

Literally thousands -- I have personally investigated more than I care to mention, and almost all were simply lousy, sloppy gun-handling.

Gun safety has been neglected in training for a long time, I've seen far too many cases of guys carrying loaded rifles with their fingers on the trigger and pointed at their own buddies. Recently I have noticed that the soldiers seem to be more cautious than in the past, coverage on TV often shows the soldiers being careful to keep their fingers off the trigger, hopefully they are getting better training these days.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Many of us seem to have forgotten the National Rifle Association was founded in the aftermath of the Civil War to promote marksmanship and safe firearms handling.

Sad to say, there seems never to have been a shortage of people who neither know nor care how to handle firearms safely and effectively.

 

[Onmilo]

It is a war, and in a war shyt happens.

One young man is dead and another young man must live with the tragic result of a moment of carelessness.

No amount of planning will ever replace bad luck.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No amount of planning will ever replace bad luck.

Training and discipline will go a looooooong way toward minimizing bad luck.

 

[wasrjoe]

The mother of the poor soul who died sounds like quite a person. I wish her the best.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Isn't there something wrong with a rifle that fires when it is dropped or tossed into a truck? Even without the safety engaged, dropping a rifle shouldn't cause it to discharge.

Who knows what else was in the truck, and how it was stowed? The rifle could have slid or toppled, allowing some other object to enter the trigger guard and discharge the weapon.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Who knows what else was in the truck, and how it was stowed? The rifle could have slid or toppled, allowing some other object to enter the trigger guard and discharge the weapon.

That's why you ALWAYS clear weapons before stowing or loading them into a vehicle, and why you make sure they can't slide around.

And that's why sergeants check, and officers double-check.

 

[benEzra]

John Farnam has pointed out that this is a direct result of the military's all-ranges-cold, never-trust-a-soldier-with-a-loaded-gun training philosophy. Soldiers who never handle loaded guns except when actually on the firing line with the rifle on target, simply don't know how to safely coexist with a loaded firearm; they've never been taught how. And many view guns as things to be tossed around. Something of a predictable result, though, since the exact opposite of Rule One has been drilled into their heads since boot camp: "All Guns are Always Unloaded."