GW
Member
Amen!
Autistic Teenager Is Beaten by Deputies After Being Mistaken for a Prowler
- Thread starter 50 Freak
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I think what will be a killer is the fact the kid received a broken arm and fractured head. The public (and I admit it myself, wonder whether or not this was a little too extreme) as if three fully armed men can't restrain a 17 year old (lets face it...RETARD). Then it makes me wonder where do we draw the line.
Will the next head line read "preschooler beat to a bloody pulp by 20 armed Cops for kicking one of them in the shin". "we were in fear of our lives by this 75 pound geek, as we thought he may have had mall ninja training. Hence we maced, tasered, beat to pulp and gave him a tittie twister" says lead Cop at scene.
Only in bed, but usually no broken bones are involved.
There was this one time in band camp......But seriously, to your question, No I'm not a LEO nor do I have any desire to be. I know they have a tough job and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. However I am a member of the public and am exercising my right to question the actions of public servents (don't forget this, LEO's only have power because the public gives them the power to "police" us and are paid by our taxes).
And since it is the public (average Joes like you and me) that have to pay out these enormous lawsuits. I definitely believe I have an obligation to keep an eye out my interests. Hence I question.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
This is basically one of those scenarios, which happens every once in a while to rarely where the whole thing stinks.
The facts:
Some mother who admitted that her autistic son needs continuous watching over, has no concept of right from wrong and cannot communicate, is somehow allowed to roam free of the house at 2AM.
He finds his way into a total strangers yard at 2AM where he attempts to open a door on the backside of a house where he is not known to anyone inside.
Person inside, believing that a prowler is outside her house now attempting to gain entry calls 911 and reports same.
The cops were directed to believe that a prowler/burglary was in progress by their dispatch who was getting this information from the person calling 911 who had an unknown person at her backdoor doing what she believed was, attempting to open the door.
Cops show up at residence, I can only assume from experience the dispatcher still had the complainant on the phone who was telling them the person was still on the back porch so all three began making their way around the house.
And there, right were the complainant saw telling dispatch a person was trying to gain entry into a house, was a person, doing what… trying to open a back door.
Cops probably a bit startled themselves as most all would be, react by giving loud and forceful verbal commands, which by the mothers own admission the kid most likely cannot understand, yelling, noise, darkness, unfamiliar ground and people all mixed up into one great big ball of ???? and confusion ensues, kid flees and in the process runs into one of the cops.
Cops react the way any other cop would have and immediately went to a level of force to control what they thought was a suspected prowler/burglar who they now believed was fleeing at the sight of the cops having been caught red handed in the commission of a felony, that felony being burglary or the less included crime of attempted burglary if he had indeed gained an entry into the residence but not yet utilized it.
Do any of you for a fleeting second actually think these cops are proud of the fact they had to thump on this kid, especially now, after the facts have come to light that he was 17, and autistic?
The facts:
Some mother who admitted that her autistic son needs continuous watching over, has no concept of right from wrong and cannot communicate, is somehow allowed to roam free of the house at 2AM.
He finds his way into a total strangers yard at 2AM where he attempts to open a door on the backside of a house where he is not known to anyone inside.
Person inside, believing that a prowler is outside her house now attempting to gain entry calls 911 and reports same.
The cops were directed to believe that a prowler/burglary was in progress by their dispatch who was getting this information from the person calling 911 who had an unknown person at her backdoor doing what she believed was, attempting to open the door.
Cops show up at residence, I can only assume from experience the dispatcher still had the complainant on the phone who was telling them the person was still on the back porch so all three began making their way around the house.
And there, right were the complainant saw telling dispatch a person was trying to gain entry into a house, was a person, doing what… trying to open a back door.
Cops probably a bit startled themselves as most all would be, react by giving loud and forceful verbal commands, which by the mothers own admission the kid most likely cannot understand, yelling, noise, darkness, unfamiliar ground and people all mixed up into one great big ball of ???? and confusion ensues, kid flees and in the process runs into one of the cops.
Cops react the way any other cop would have and immediately went to a level of force to control what they thought was a suspected prowler/burglar who they now believed was fleeing at the sight of the cops having been caught red handed in the commission of a felony, that felony being burglary or the less included crime of attempted burglary if he had indeed gained an entry into the residence but not yet utilized it.
Do any of you for a fleeting second actually think these cops are proud of the fact they had to thump on this kid, especially now, after the facts have come to light that he was 17, and autistic?
Again, do you know why I keep bringing up Graham v. Conner?
How many that continue to argue this have read the decision, and opinions offered in that case. I won't try to explain it here, because the Justices explain in it clearly, concisely, and logically, for anyone willing to take the time to read it.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
How many that continue to argue this have read the decision, and opinions offered in that case. I won't try to explain it here, because the Justices explain in it clearly, concisely, and logically, for anyone willing to take the time to read it.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
TheFederalistWeasel
member
TheFederalistWeasel
member
...
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I'm not even angry anymore. This just makes me tired. If anyone here is honestly interested in learning about what autism is and why it could cause this kind of situation, I'll be glad to post about it, but I won't hold my breath.
For those who would like to blame all this on the mother, I don't know what to say. I guess we now know nothing bad will ever happen to your kids at 2:00 in the morning, because you'll be awake in their bedrooms to make sure, right? After all, that's what she should have done, isn't it?
50 Freak, if you haven't seen it, I can tell you about it, but you probably wouldn't believe it. The student I work with most of the time is 13 years old and small for his age, and to restrain him without hurting him takes all I've got some days (I'm 6'1" 341 lbs this morning.) Even then, I usually involve someone else, because it's impossible to guarantee that he won't get hurt (or that I won't.) Autistic children often don't process sensory stimuli (like pain) the way the rest of us do. My student will scream over false hurts to get his way, but you don't see him bang his head against a wall, you'll never know where he got that gash, because he doesn't even notice the pain. He can hurt himself in a moment and he thinks nothing of doing something that will result in a broken arm if it looks like a way out of restraint. When he has to be restrained, most of our energy goes into protecting him, and that's also where we get the most injuries. There are numerous 13-year-old autistic kids in this district who are perfectly capable of breaking your nose or knocking you flat on your butt if you aren't on the ball, too. A 17-year-old . . . . it would be like handling an adult. I use a system called CPI, which is very useful for protecting everyone involved and in which I re-certify every year. But CPI instructors explicitly tell you that the restraint techniques they teach won't work on someone near your own size.
Remember that I do all this in broad daylight with a child I know. Generally, I know why he's going off and how I'm going to bring him back. It's not dark, it's not mysterious, and I don't have to treat him like a suspect.
The other thing I want to cover is this business of the "Presumption of Innocence" which was not "applied" to arresting this boy. The presumption of innocence is a term of art that has meaning in a court room. It does not relate in any way to the arrest or detainment of a suspect by the police.
A police officer does not arrest or detain a suspect because that person is guilty! He arrests him because he's a suspect. The presumption of innocence is not compromised by this because there is no decision made about guilt or innocence by the officer--the officer is only deciding whether it is reasonable to arrest or detain this person as someone who is suspected of committing a crime. If the police encounter you at 2 a.m. on someone else's property after being called out to stop a burglar, they ARE going to detain you. That doesn't mean you're presumed to be guilty, it means you're a suspect.
They're also going to use whatever means they need to use in order to detain you, and that also doesn't mean they've judged you guilty--only that they need to arrest you and the power to arrest a suspect doesn't mean much without the power to effect that arrest.
Now, I'm going to say this one last time. We do not know whether the officers acted reasonably. But we also do not know that they "beat" the boy (as opposed to simply trying to restrain him without knowing he was on the spectrum) and we do not know that he merely "nudged" an officer, regardless of what the newspaper says that the chief says that they said (that's information at the third remove for those counting along at home.)
What I DO know from personal experience over the last two years, and what my wife* acknowledges is true from her four years of experience, is that it is absolutely possible and even likely that the injuries this boy got could have resulted from three police officers applying their standard approach to subduing a suspect to a 17-year-old boy. Anyone who tells you that it couldn't have happened that way, or even that it's unlikely, does not have that experience.
The police officers here say "Oh, yes, that could certainly have happened even if the cops had the best of intentions."
The teachers of autistic children here say "Oh, yes, that could certainly have happened even if the cops had the best of intentions."
So why is that so hard to believe?
*My wife has been teaching children with autism since 2000, and she's come home with her share of shiners, wrenched knees, and sprained ankles. She's also got a Master's Degree in Special Education and is CPI and TEACCH certified.
For those who would like to blame all this on the mother, I don't know what to say. I guess we now know nothing bad will ever happen to your kids at 2:00 in the morning, because you'll be awake in their bedrooms to make sure, right? After all, that's what she should have done, isn't it?
50 Freak, if you haven't seen it, I can tell you about it, but you probably wouldn't believe it. The student I work with most of the time is 13 years old and small for his age, and to restrain him without hurting him takes all I've got some days (I'm 6'1" 341 lbs this morning.) Even then, I usually involve someone else, because it's impossible to guarantee that he won't get hurt (or that I won't.) Autistic children often don't process sensory stimuli (like pain) the way the rest of us do. My student will scream over false hurts to get his way, but you don't see him bang his head against a wall, you'll never know where he got that gash, because he doesn't even notice the pain. He can hurt himself in a moment and he thinks nothing of doing something that will result in a broken arm if it looks like a way out of restraint. When he has to be restrained, most of our energy goes into protecting him, and that's also where we get the most injuries. There are numerous 13-year-old autistic kids in this district who are perfectly capable of breaking your nose or knocking you flat on your butt if you aren't on the ball, too. A 17-year-old . . . . it would be like handling an adult. I use a system called CPI, which is very useful for protecting everyone involved and in which I re-certify every year. But CPI instructors explicitly tell you that the restraint techniques they teach won't work on someone near your own size.
Remember that I do all this in broad daylight with a child I know. Generally, I know why he's going off and how I'm going to bring him back. It's not dark, it's not mysterious, and I don't have to treat him like a suspect.
The other thing I want to cover is this business of the "Presumption of Innocence" which was not "applied" to arresting this boy. The presumption of innocence is a term of art that has meaning in a court room. It does not relate in any way to the arrest or detainment of a suspect by the police.
A police officer does not arrest or detain a suspect because that person is guilty! He arrests him because he's a suspect. The presumption of innocence is not compromised by this because there is no decision made about guilt or innocence by the officer--the officer is only deciding whether it is reasonable to arrest or detain this person as someone who is suspected of committing a crime. If the police encounter you at 2 a.m. on someone else's property after being called out to stop a burglar, they ARE going to detain you. That doesn't mean you're presumed to be guilty, it means you're a suspect.
They're also going to use whatever means they need to use in order to detain you, and that also doesn't mean they've judged you guilty--only that they need to arrest you and the power to arrest a suspect doesn't mean much without the power to effect that arrest.
Now, I'm going to say this one last time. We do not know whether the officers acted reasonably. But we also do not know that they "beat" the boy (as opposed to simply trying to restrain him without knowing he was on the spectrum) and we do not know that he merely "nudged" an officer, regardless of what the newspaper says that the chief says that they said (that's information at the third remove for those counting along at home.)
What I DO know from personal experience over the last two years, and what my wife* acknowledges is true from her four years of experience, is that it is absolutely possible and even likely that the injuries this boy got could have resulted from three police officers applying their standard approach to subduing a suspect to a 17-year-old boy. Anyone who tells you that it couldn't have happened that way, or even that it's unlikely, does not have that experience.
The police officers here say "Oh, yes, that could certainly have happened even if the cops had the best of intentions."
The teachers of autistic children here say "Oh, yes, that could certainly have happened even if the cops had the best of intentions."
So why is that so hard to believe?
*My wife has been teaching children with autism since 2000, and she's come home with her share of shiners, wrenched knees, and sprained ankles. She's also got a Master's Degree in Special Education and is CPI and TEACCH certified.
GW
Member
Amen Mr Gwinn
I work with autistic preschoolers and have my share of bloody noses from them throwing their heads back, bruises from being kicked, scratches and bites. I've also had a mom collapse from exhaustion in front of my classroom. Her kid had been up three nights running around the house and HE showed no signs of being tired whatsoever except that his attention span was even shorter
Kids with autism are just a whole 'nother ball game. They can repeat a song you sang only once and a week ago at that. They can watch an activity once and repeat it later such as locking a door or unlocking it. AND they all do it on their own schedule. They are amazing and diverse in their behaviors and NOBODY has an answer for how to get through to them.
One of the best anolgies I've heard is this: A cat is a dog with autism.
Keep up the good work
BC
I work with autistic preschoolers and have my share of bloody noses from them throwing their heads back, bruises from being kicked, scratches and bites. I've also had a mom collapse from exhaustion in front of my classroom. Her kid had been up three nights running around the house and HE showed no signs of being tired whatsoever except that his attention span was even shorter
Kids with autism are just a whole 'nother ball game. They can repeat a song you sang only once and a week ago at that. They can watch an activity once and repeat it later such as locking a door or unlocking it. AND they all do it on their own schedule. They are amazing and diverse in their behaviors and NOBODY has an answer for how to get through to them.
One of the best anolgies I've heard is this: A cat is a dog with autism.
Keep up the good work
BC
DonNikmare
Member
I'm 6'2'' and 230 lbs and I tell you a much less than 17 year old severely autistic kid who is acting up can have me all sweaty and short of breath in less than 5 min.
My hat's off to any Mom of a severely or even mildly autistic kid - it's an incredible feat to take care of them. I don't fault the Mom for the kid getting out but for not educating her community about her son and his condition. That is something a parent of an autistic child should know to do, especially after 17 years.
"On the bright side I bet the kid doesn't wander off ever again! Lol Pavlov couldn't have done it better."
I wish it worked that way or that fast but it just does not, not with people/kids with autism. Any improvement with pretty much all autistic kids comes after long periods of consistant positive reinforcement and shaping - very difficult work indeed.
Nik
My hat's off to any Mom of a severely or even mildly autistic kid - it's an incredible feat to take care of them. I don't fault the Mom for the kid getting out but for not educating her community about her son and his condition. That is something a parent of an autistic child should know to do, especially after 17 years.
"On the bright side I bet the kid doesn't wander off ever again! Lol Pavlov couldn't have done it better."
I wish it worked that way or that fast but it just does not, not with people/kids with autism. Any improvement with pretty much all autistic kids comes after long periods of consistant positive reinforcement and shaping - very difficult work indeed.
Nik
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Amen yourselves. Don, I'm glad you brought up that quote about the boy learning not to sneak out.
We don't really know what he's thinking. Even his mom probably is surprised by what he does half the time. Autistic cognition is a big question mark, especially with someone as far to the severe end as this kid seems to be.
The first thing my wife said when she read the article was that she wondered what would happen the next time he encountered a police officer. In his mind, SOME kind of precedent has been set, but we don't really know what it is. It may be that he has learned that when a man in a police uniform talks to you, you fight him (this wouldn't have to mean he hated police officers, just that this is what he did the last time he was in what he perceives as a similar situation.)
It may be that nighttime will be the trigger. . . . or it may be that neighbor's lawn . . . . or it may be uniforms . . . . or it may be flashing blue and red lights. . . . or a combination of all or none. And nobody is going to know the answer unless it happens.
By the by, Teacch in North Carolina offers a book for first responders on dealing with people with autism. It would not have helped in this case, because the police didn't know they were dealing with an autistic child, but it's probably worth giving one to the local police and fire department if you live in a community with a large autistic population. We work in a small town with a fairly large percentage of autistic kids because parents move into the district for the autism classrooms.
The only thing the mother could have done that would have made any difference in this case would have been to take her kid to the police and fire stations and introduce him to as many cops and rescue people as she could. If she did that a few times, maybe one of the cops who met him in the dark that night would have remembered him as that autistic kid whose mom brought him around, and this could have been averted. But I don't know a single parent in my town who has done that. Do any of yours?
(You know, come to think of it, maybe that's not a crazy idea for a field trip. It wouldn't have to be sold as "get to know our kids so you won't tase them." It would just be another school group tour to the cops, but a good chance to talk about autism, MR and TBI and how to handle our students. We already go to the library and the grocery store every two weeks. Hmm.)
(EDIT: Crud, maybe that book wasn't from TEACCH. I can't find it at www.teacch.com.)
We don't really know what he's thinking. Even his mom probably is surprised by what he does half the time. Autistic cognition is a big question mark, especially with someone as far to the severe end as this kid seems to be.
The first thing my wife said when she read the article was that she wondered what would happen the next time he encountered a police officer. In his mind, SOME kind of precedent has been set, but we don't really know what it is. It may be that he has learned that when a man in a police uniform talks to you, you fight him (this wouldn't have to mean he hated police officers, just that this is what he did the last time he was in what he perceives as a similar situation.)
It may be that nighttime will be the trigger. . . . or it may be that neighbor's lawn . . . . or it may be uniforms . . . . or it may be flashing blue and red lights. . . . or a combination of all or none. And nobody is going to know the answer unless it happens.
By the by, Teacch in North Carolina offers a book for first responders on dealing with people with autism. It would not have helped in this case, because the police didn't know they were dealing with an autistic child, but it's probably worth giving one to the local police and fire department if you live in a community with a large autistic population. We work in a small town with a fairly large percentage of autistic kids because parents move into the district for the autism classrooms.
The only thing the mother could have done that would have made any difference in this case would have been to take her kid to the police and fire stations and introduce him to as many cops and rescue people as she could. If she did that a few times, maybe one of the cops who met him in the dark that night would have remembered him as that autistic kid whose mom brought him around, and this could have been averted. But I don't know a single parent in my town who has done that. Do any of yours?
(You know, come to think of it, maybe that's not a crazy idea for a field trip. It wouldn't have to be sold as "get to know our kids so you won't tase them." It would just be another school group tour to the cops, but a good chance to talk about autism, MR and TBI and how to handle our students. We already go to the library and the grocery store every two weeks. Hmm.)
(EDIT: Crud, maybe that book wasn't from TEACCH. I can't find it at www.teacch.com.)
And how many times have you broken an arm or fractured one of your "kids" head???? If you did, would you still have a job? Would the parents of that kid call the police about unnecessary voilence? Would your facility be under investigation for child abuse???? Do we just give a get out of jail free card to these three LEO's because they are cops???
Now lets take the scenario again...3 (THREE) fully armed and armored cops could not restrain a kid after they had maced and tasered him and then proceeded to breaking a arm and fracturing a head. Don't you think they could have restrained him without breaking a arm or fracturing a head??? Do you think this would ever even made the paper had the the broken arm and fractured head never occur?? Hence obviously some threshold was passed in order for this to make this newsworthy. Do you think a jury of 12 will side with the police or a poor mom with her autistic kid? Remember Rodney King. The reality of the situation is nothing. The perception is everything. The perception of the police targeting black motorist and beating the crap out of him was a catalist for a major riot and made Rodney King a multi-millionare.
Back to my original hestitation about this. I believe the LEO's did everything by the book UP UNTIL THE POINT THEY BROKE THIS KID'S ARM AND FRACTURED HIS HEAD. You quote Graham v. Connor and about a "reasonableness" of a particular use of force. But I believe the key word to that case is REASONABLE. Maybe I'm a softy but I don't see breaking a kid's arm and fracturing his head as a "reasonable" use of force to detain him.
If he had a knife or gun or an bat in his hand, I would have no objections. But he was unarmed and the THREE officers were fully armed and armored. Now before you start talking about people concealing nukes in thir armpit. I don't buy that. I don't see why an LEO must assume everyone is armed. Especially a kid (probably dressed in his PJ's). I don't believe they were in Compton or the Bronx. This was some hokey suburb. I believe in the necessary use of force as a retalitory action not as a pre-emptive action.
Flame on baby.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
This blanket statement tells me a lot about you and your mindset.
First you are not now nor have you ever been a cop.
I’m sorry to inform you but we live in a society where people no longer respect themselves or their own lives, much less yours or mine. People are becoming more and more dependant on better living thru chemical dependency and the order of the day is usually alcohol and crack cocaine for blacks and alcohol and meth for whites, a simple fact that very few in LE will dispute.
Finding weapons of people nowadays is no longer unusual its’ routine even with juveniles as young as 11, I took a huge folding blade knife off one about a month ago.
Three calls in the last two weeks where a person with a gun was reported, turned out to be younger adults with Air Soft replica handguns.
In the last year I’ve had to fight 3 folks on what started out being “routine†calls/traffic stops and in the end it turned out they all were on illegal narcotics and had mixed it with alcohol. All three required the attention of the ER Physician because the level of resistance they were using left me with no other option but an impact weapon, that or just shoot them.
People run from the cops as if it was a bodily function, people fight us just about as much.
I’m again sorry to inform you but thanks to the actions of your fellow rock dwellers, most cops no longer trust people they encounter on calls, I’m one of them.
Because I’ve been lied to, had to chase down and fight so many more I am very skeptical when I make contact with a person on a call such as a prowler call or whatnot.
When they tell me something the first thing that goes thru my mind is what would this person gain from lying to me.
We deal with the elements of society on a regular basis who are the ones you wouldn’t mind seeing in jail, people who steal your stuff to support a dope habit, sling dope at your kids school on two block from your grandmothers house who still lives in the old neighborhood.
But a lot of this will fall short for you because by your own admission you do not understand why we do what we do.
In the end, I’m going home at the end of my shift and I know a lot of folks scoff at that old saying, including a good friend of mine who is a criminal defense attorney, but guess what IDGAF, because it’s me not you or him standing out there on that traffic stop or answering a call to a prowler at 2AM.
Until I determine 100% w/o a doubt you are who you say you are and you are not wanted and I feel you are a good guy, I will genuinely question everything you do and say and I will only ask you one time to keep your hands out of your pockets.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
I think reading this topic made me stupider.
People don't seem to grasp that drawing wide-ranging conclusions from brief, vague press coverage of an event is moronic. You might was well try to reverse-engineer the blueprints for the MX missile from some scribbles on a cocktail napkin. These topics always devolve into preconception wanking fodder.
Also, many people don't seem to grasp that interacting with people with severely impaired cognition is a confusing, frustrating and potentially dangerous business at 10am in a clinical setting. Such a person prowling around at 2am in someone's yard is a whole other ball of wax. Among other things, their pain responses, apparent strength, and willingness to hurt themselves can be right off the map. The PCP analogy is not a bad one in some respects, depending on the severity of the disorder of course.
And you know, if I'm walking around in my the yard at 2am, and out of the blue some person acting bizarre runs right at me, they are probalby going to get beaten or shot. That's about a clear-cut as apparent threats get, really, if you actually sit down and visualize it. I mean, what's left, a flamethrower?
People don't seem to grasp that drawing wide-ranging conclusions from brief, vague press coverage of an event is moronic. You might was well try to reverse-engineer the blueprints for the MX missile from some scribbles on a cocktail napkin. These topics always devolve into preconception wanking fodder.
Also, many people don't seem to grasp that interacting with people with severely impaired cognition is a confusing, frustrating and potentially dangerous business at 10am in a clinical setting. Such a person prowling around at 2am in someone's yard is a whole other ball of wax. Among other things, their pain responses, apparent strength, and willingness to hurt themselves can be right off the map. The PCP analogy is not a bad one in some respects, depending on the severity of the disorder of course.
And you know, if I'm walking around in my the yard at 2am, and out of the blue some person acting bizarre runs right at me, they are probalby going to get beaten or shot. That's about a clear-cut as apparent threats get, really, if you actually sit down and visualize it. I mean, what's left, a flamethrower?
Joejojoba111
Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,056
About him not feeling pain, umm, I think autism is a very big blanket term, it covers a lot, so being autistic has a really really broad spectrum, and a lot of it depends on how early the condition is diagnosed and special treatment begun. Even so the statement that 'they don't feel pain' is really assuming a lot, I think.
As for the presumption of innocence, I sort of emphasize that the presumption was reversed because it was assumed that the suspect was guilty of use of drugs. What evidence? Who needs evidence. So maybe now is a good opportunity to reconsider some policies, just have a meeting and go over procedures, nothing huge, just try to learn and adapt.
Also close relatives are social workers dealing specifically with delinquent kids, which goes to 16 years old I think. Saw first hand a few techniques for 'planting' resistant people, they work well. I think everyone understands that a person running at you is threatening. But once you can see they are completely unarmed, and they are on the ground, how does a nightstick help restrain them? 3 ppl should have little trouble putting cuffs on hands and feet, well wrists and ankles. The idea 'this guy isn't holding still, get out the bag of compliance tricks' simply maybe could be reconsidered, to include those that would have trouble with the scenario. Especially if you already know you're dealing with a lowlife pervert junkie.
Maybe nothing can be changed, but seriously a lot of people tried awfully quickly to place blame on mom and just sweep situation under the rug. No need to get defensive, what's needed is an open discussion with back and forth, 'this might help' 'no that's not doable, but come to think of it this other thing might help'. When a situation like this is written off as 'the exception' and consideration of policy revision is taboo, then you have a problem which will only get worse.
As for the presumption of innocence, I sort of emphasize that the presumption was reversed because it was assumed that the suspect was guilty of use of drugs. What evidence? Who needs evidence. So maybe now is a good opportunity to reconsider some policies, just have a meeting and go over procedures, nothing huge, just try to learn and adapt.
Also close relatives are social workers dealing specifically with delinquent kids, which goes to 16 years old I think. Saw first hand a few techniques for 'planting' resistant people, they work well. I think everyone understands that a person running at you is threatening. But once you can see they are completely unarmed, and they are on the ground, how does a nightstick help restrain them? 3 ppl should have little trouble putting cuffs on hands and feet, well wrists and ankles. The idea 'this guy isn't holding still, get out the bag of compliance tricks' simply maybe could be reconsidered, to include those that would have trouble with the scenario. Especially if you already know you're dealing with a lowlife pervert junkie.
Maybe nothing can be changed, but seriously a lot of people tried awfully quickly to place blame on mom and just sweep situation under the rug. No need to get defensive, what's needed is an open discussion with back and forth, 'this might help' 'no that's not doable, but come to think of it this other thing might help'. When a situation like this is written off as 'the exception' and consideration of policy revision is taboo, then you have a problem which will only get worse.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Do you think it has escalated since you guys veered more toward "Law Enforcement" instead of "Keeping the Peace"?
Warbow
Member
Please. Like Don aleady pointed out, presumption of innocence has no bearing on this. The cops already had cause to detain him. According to them, at the time they were in the process of detaining him they thought he was under the influence of drugs because of his actions. I have no idea how you can make an issue out of it.
Did you forget that this happened at 2 in the morning? How the heck are they supposed to see if he was unarmed? Just because someone's on the ground doesn't mean they can't pull a weapon and use it.
The nightstick helps because it causes pain. Pain compliance is a legitimate and sometimes necessary option.
only1asterisk
member
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 2,412
I don't know if anyone missed it, but Don wrote:
So what else is there?
David
So what else is there?
David
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
You have absolutely no evidence for that opinion. You're entitled to the opinion, I suppose, that the police were going rogue once the boy's arm and skull broke, but you don't have any idea whether it's actually true or not. You do not and cannot know how or why his arm broke and his skull fractured. You have no idea whether the cops did that with a baton, or boots . . . . or whether he caused that injury himself despite their best efforts to take him into custody without injury.
You have simply assumed that the cops MUST have beaten him severely. I can only conclude that you don't believe me when I tell you that there's a very good possibility it didn't go that way at all, so what experience do you have with autistic teenagers that leads you to contradict every authority on the subject plus my personal experience? Now I'm really curious.
Yes, it is. Can I assume this means that you are now against making big assumptions based on big blanket terms, or was that just a one-time rhetorical device?
Anyway, I've really had my say here, so I'm going to bow out. I hope this won't turn into citizen vs. police, since that's NOT what this is about. I also hope there won't be any more personal attacks. For obvious reasons, I won't be taking any action as a moderator in this thread no matter what, so thanks, Pax, for keeping an eye in here. If anyone has more to say to me and you need a response, feel free to PM or email.
Orthonym
Member
Poke Around on These Sites:
http://policeandautism.cjb.net
http://amanda.autistics.org
http://www.autistics.org
The first one is designed to help policemen with just this kind of situation (though I do admit the work should have been done previously, both by Mom and others; Two Ayem is not the time to do a training seminar).
Amanda's site describes (very eloquently) her experiences as a very intelligent autist who has trouble speaking, and controlling her body even.
The third site is run by auties and is quite large, with a huge list of links worth poking around in.
I betcha that anyone who's the least bit of an autie or aspie, and goes out in public, has had some bad LEO experiences on account of it. I know that I have had such.
(Must resist temptation to correct cop on law...)
http://policeandautism.cjb.net
http://amanda.autistics.org
http://www.autistics.org
The first one is designed to help policemen with just this kind of situation (though I do admit the work should have been done previously, both by Mom and others; Two Ayem is not the time to do a training seminar).
Amanda's site describes (very eloquently) her experiences as a very intelligent autist who has trouble speaking, and controlling her body even.
The third site is run by auties and is quite large, with a huge list of links worth poking around in.
I betcha that anyone who's the least bit of an autie or aspie, and goes out in public, has had some bad LEO experiences on account of it. I know that I have had such.
(Must resist temptation to correct cop on law...)
DonNikmare
Member
"Don't you think they could have restrained him without breaking a arm or fracturing a head??? "
The last time I was involved in a restraint of an older autistic child (but younger than 17) it took 5 people trained in CPI, it was day light, and we ended up with a knocked down Christmas tree, food all over the place, some severe carpet burn, and a facial abrasion.
I'm saddened that this happened to this kid but not surprised and still not willing to place any blame on the LEO's.
Nik
The last time I was involved in a restraint of an older autistic child (but younger than 17) it took 5 people trained in CPI, it was day light, and we ended up with a knocked down Christmas tree, food all over the place, some severe carpet burn, and a facial abrasion.
I'm saddened that this happened to this kid but not surprised and still not willing to place any blame on the LEO's.
Nik
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