Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine

[9mmfan]

So I did the unthinkable and bought a farby reproduction (Auto-Ordnance/Kahr, 2017 brand-spankin’ new) M1 Carbine.

Field stripped, cleaned, lubed.

Factory mag + 3 of the respected Koreans.

I am at right around 100 rounds, give or take, and have run into an issue.

From the get-go, FMJ (Remington and PPU) feeds beautifully, but one or two rounds per mag, when the trigger is pulled, only gives me a “click”.

When I run the bolt by hand the ejected round’s primer is as smooth as a baby’s bottom.

Second loading usually results in a “bang”.

Only one failure to feed (PPU JSP), easily manipulated and moved on.

I have ordered the bolt tool, and will use it ASAP.

When it is all apart, does anyone have any idea for what I should have my eyes peeled?

I know there is a 3-500 round break in period discussed in general with these guns, but I wonder if some tinkering can expedite the process.

I thank you in advance.

 

[Bushpilot]

I know there is a 3-500 round break in period discussed in general with these guns, but I wonder if some tinkering can expedite the process.

I'd depress the firing pin on the back of the bolt and see how far it protrudes from the bolt face and the condition of the pin. It's possible Auto Ordinance might be using some type of a spring rebounding type pin on their rifles and you won't see it just by pushing on the back and looking (some Universals use a different style pin, sorry, but I'm more familiar with the GI models then with the AOs). I'd look for an excessive amount of cosmoline/grease in and around the firing pin and bolt. On many heavily greased rifles I've often seen grease hydraulically prevent the firing pin from traveling far enough to discharge the primer. The next time the rifle fails to fire I'd look to make 100% sure the bolt is fully in battery (bolts fully forward/closed), if not the hammer won't strike the pin to fire, but you will still hear the click.. My guess is either it's not going fully into battery or AO uses some type of rebounding firing pin that is goofed up or full of grease..... If it's not going into battery it might get better/ looser after you shoot it more. I wouldn't recommend trying to "expedite" this process.... If it's full of grease take the bolt out and swish it around and soak in solvent.

 

[9mmfan]

I was wondering if excess grease or something else around the pin might be the issue.
I have squirted some solvent down in it, but didn’t have the tool to disassemble the bolt so I could really get in there properly. It should be here later today.
Hopefully that will solve the issue. If not, I’ll just keep shooting it and see if everything wears in.
I know when I first field stripped it, getting some of it apart took a smidge of doing as it was quite tight.
Thank you for the reply and information.

 

[someguy2800]

If your not getting any primer indent at all I’d bet it’s not going all the way into battery.

 

[9mmfan]

I saw something to that effect online. I will try to find it again, as it showed how to check with the action out of the stock.

I do find it curious that it is only happening occasionally.

Something about using a cartridge as a go gauge, showing a slight (thickness of a couple sheets of paper if I remember correctly) gap ‘twixt the lug and the receiver.
Perhaps this is one of the things that wears in after the break in period?

FWIW, the bolt disassembly tool came in the mail today. In the morning I’ll toddle on out to the shop and do a little investigating.

Again, thank you both for your input.

 

[idoono]

So what did you find with the bolt?

Idoono

 

[Merle1]

I saw something to that effect online. I will try to find it again, as it showed how to check with the action out of the stock.

I do find it curious that it is only happening occasionally.

Something about using a cartridge as a go gauge, showing a slight (thickness of a couple sheets of paper if I remember correctly) gap ‘twixt the lug and the receiver.
Perhaps this is one of the things that wears in after the break in period?

FWIW, the bolt disassembly tool came in the mail today. In the morning I’ll toddle on out to the shop and do a little investigating.

Again, thank you both for your input.

PS: where did you get the bolt tool?

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I know this may not be the issue, but check the gas port, piston, and nut. My Auto Ordnance M1 carbine piston nut would back off; not completely, but enough to cause rounds to not fully enter the chamber.

They do indeed have a break in period. I hastened mine along by using about 150 Tula steel case. After that I’ve used only brass. I also had to replace my magazine catch with a GI catch because the factory one was a little loose, and caused feed problems. With a few tweaks they are great guns. I just wish they came that way from the factory.

 

[9mmfan]

Just to update.

Haven’t had time to mess with the bolt.
Most likely tomorrow.

Bought the tool off Amazon. G4 something-or-other. Took advantage of the household Prime Membership whilst ordering a couple other things.

I will have time tomorrow to tinker with things, then maybe take it out for a short test run.

Of note, I did notice after cycling by hand that the hammer strike on a dry fire caused the bolt to move forward and rotate just enough to be perceptible. Say 1/16th or so (most anytime I measure anything it is on a straightish length of wood).

After it is broken down, I will scrub the chamber, pay close attention to the parts of the bolt, if time allows I will then shoot a couple hundred rounds through it to see how everything wears in.

I have had zero problems feeding, as long as I am using FMJ with good mags. Which are the single factory and subsequent Korean ones.

JSP hung up on one feeding. Hoping that clears up with time.

I did get a couple cheap mags early on from a purveyor of “milsurp” goods. They all caught the round on the rim. When I tried to alter (bend) them, they just snapped .

The slings I bought from have held up fairly well, so all I can say is be picky in regards to component sourcing.

I will be checking the tightness of the gas nut when it is apart.

 

[WelshShooter]

I'd say it's highly likely that your bolt is not going into battery. Are the moving parts lubricated correctly? Are your magazines fitting well in your rifle? Are the feed lips rubbing the bolt or are they fine?

 

[Merle1]

I'd say it's highly likely that your bolt is not going into battery. Are the moving parts lubricated correctly? Are your magazines fitting well in your rifle? Are the feed lips rubbing the bolt or are they fine?

Another consideration is the cleanliness/smoothness of your chamber. Could be just a bit of roughness is slowing down the cartridge & not letting it chamber completely. When the hammer drops it closes the bolt the last fraction of an inch.

 

[Nuclear]

I have a couple of WWII M1 Carbines, and they both exhibit the bolt moving on dry firing as the OP describes. They both also function properly and reliably.

 

[9mmfan]

Got the bolt apart, and with some trial and error, got it back together. There were a couple moments I thought a third hand would be useful to get it back together.

It was pretty wet in there, so I q-tipped out the firing pin channel and wiped down the pin itself.

Bushpilot, there is no rebounding spring or anything like that. Regular old free floating firing pin.

The gas nut seemed correct, flush except for the, I don’t know, “wings”, lugs, or whatever they are called. Piston moved back and forth freely.

Put some fresh grease on the rails and lugs, had some oil sitting on the hammer pin to creep in while I was messing around with everything else.

Once I got the action back together, but before I put it all back in the stock, I dry fired it several times. Hammer always contacted the firing pin. I could wiggle the firing pin back and forth a little bit after the hammer had fallen, but I am assuming that is normal.

Then I reached in from underneath and pressed on the bolt, there seemed to be a fair amount of slop. This did make me realize that when I was noticing the bolt movement upon dry firing, there was no magazine inserted and therefore no support from the bottom as would be present when firing normally.

I put the action back in the stock, inserted an empty magazine and dry fired a few more times. The forward movement was no longer present, though the tiny amount of rotation was still there.

The magazine feed lips are pristine and show no sign of any dragging of the bolt.

Unfortunately, I was unable to take it out and shoot it afterwards, so I have no idea if any of this made any difference whatsoever.

Apologies to anyone who was annoyed or enraged to find this out after reading this lengthy post.

Hopefully next week I can go out and shoot a couple hundred rounds through it, see if everything smooths out. As has been mentioned, here and several other places, there is a break in period and several folks have reported early issues that cleared up after a couple hundred rounds. It’s entirely possible I’m just being impatient.

It’s also an absolute fact that I am an unrepentant tinkerer, so I did have to monkey with it a bit to be satisfied. If it doesn’t clear up, I’ll just have to contact Auto Ordnance and see what they say or do.

I will say that except for the handful of times it has “clicked” instead of “banged”, it has been a hoot to shoot.

Also jibing with what Nuclear said, I mashed on the top of the closed bolt of my Garand with my thumb, and it moved a little as well. That beast has never not done what it was supposed to do since I’ve had it, I assume it’s been well behaved since ‘44.

At any rate, I will keep everyone posted on how things go when I have a chance to take it out again.

I will try to exercise some brevity in that report.

Thanks to all of you for your input, as well as reading my lengthy ramblings.

 

[RecoilRob]

When you do get out to shoot it again, it might be instructive to visually observe the bolt position before each shot....just in case it's not closing completely and that's why it misfired. About the only way the hammer cannot transfer enough energy through the floating firing pin to the primer is if it's not fully closed....so I'd watch for that and not just bang away until it does the 'click not BANG' thing...if it should.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Got the bolt apart, and with some trial and error, got it back together. There were a couple moments I thought a third hand would be useful to get it back together.

It was pretty wet in there, so I q-tipped out the firing pin channel and wiped down the pin itself.

Bushpilot, there is no rebounding spring or anything like that. Regular old free floating firing pin.

The gas nut seemed correct, flush except for the, I don’t know, “wings”, lugs, or whatever they are called. Piston moved back and forth freely.

Put some fresh grease on the rails and lugs, had some oil sitting on the hammer pin to creep in while I was messing around with everything else.

Once I got the action back together, but before I put it all back in the stock, I dry fired it several times. Hammer always contacted the firing pin. I could wiggle the firing pin back and forth a little bit after the hammer had fallen, but I am assuming that is normal.

Then I reached in from underneath and pressed on the bolt, there seemed to be a fair amount of slop. This did make me realize that when I was noticing the bolt movement upon dry firing, there was no magazine inserted and therefore no support from the bottom as would be present when firing normally.

I put the action back in the stock, inserted an empty magazine and dry fired a few more times. The forward movement was no longer present, though the tiny amount of rotation was still there.

The magazine feed lips are pristine and show no sign of any dragging of the bolt.

Unfortunately, I was unable to take it out and shoot it afterwards, so I have no idea if any of this made any difference whatsoever.

Apologies to anyone who was annoyed or enraged to find this out after reading this lengthy post.

Hopefully next week I can go out and shoot a couple hundred rounds through it, see if everything smooths out. As has been mentioned, here and several other places, there is a break in period and several folks have reported early issues that cleared up after a couple hundred rounds. It’s entirely possible I’m just being impatient.

It’s also an absolute fact that I am an unrepentant tinkerer, so I did have to monkey with it a bit to be satisfied. If it doesn’t clear up, I’ll just have to contact Auto Ordnance and see what they say or do.

I will say that except for the handful of times it has “clicked” instead of “banged”, it has been a hoot to shoot.

Also jibing with what Nuclear said, I mashed on the top of the closed bolt of my Garand with my thumb, and it moved a little as well. That beast has never not done what it was supposed to do since I’ve had it, I assume it’s been well behaved since ‘44.

At any rate, I will keep everyone posted on how things go when I have a chance to take it out again.

I will try to exercise some brevity in that report.

Thanks to all of you for your input, as well as reading my lengthy ramblings.

I just reread your first post and I realized something. I had this happen a couple times after I got my piston nut issue sorted out. My problem was dirty ammo, and a not “broken in” yet gun. A couple rounds failed to completely enter the battery and allow the bolt to close because of fouling/carbon.

The M1 carbine has a couple safety measures built in to prevent out of battery firing. The first is a notch on the receiver that prevents the firing pin from moving before the bolt is locked in place.

The bottom shows the correct GI machining. The top shows an incorrectly machined Universal receiver. Auto Ordnance receivers have the correct notch, but it isn’t as pronounced as some of the GI receivers.

The second is a double hardened bolt rear and hammer. This prevents the firing pin from striking the primer if the bolt is not fully closed. I don’t know how hard the Auto Ordnance bolts are, but it shouldn’t be an issue on a new rifle.

If, for some reason, your ammunition is not seating properly to allow the bolt to close, the firing pin should not be able to hit the primer, and the round won’t fire. That is the way the bolt and receiver are designed. It’s a safety measure that prevents catastrophic accidents.

 

[9mmfan]

When you do get out to shoot it again, it might be instructive to visually observe the bolt position before each shot....just in case it's not closing completely and that's why it misfired. About the only way the hammer cannot transfer enough energy through the floating firing pin to the primer is if it's not fully closed....so I'd watch for that and not just bang away until it does the 'click not BANG' thing...if it should.

Thank you, that is useful advice, I will observe the bolt between shots.

I just reread your first post and I realized something. I had this happen a couple times after I got my piston nut issue sorted out. My problem was dirty ammo, and a not “broken in” yet gun. A couple rounds failed to completely enter the battery and allow the bolt to close because of fouling/carbon.

The M1 carbine has a couple safety measures built in to prevent out of battery firing. The first is a notch on the receiver that prevents the firing pin from moving before the bolt is locked in place.
View attachment 788022
The bottom shows the correct GI machining. The top shows an incorrectly machined Universal receiver. Auto Ordnance receivers have the correct notch, but it isn’t as pronounced as some of the GI receivers.

The second is a double hardened bolt rear and hammer. This prevents the firing pin from striking the primer if the bolt is not fully closed. I don’t know how hard the Auto Ordnance bolts are, but it shouldn’t be an issue on a new rifle.

If, for some reason, your ammunition is not seating properly to allow the bolt to close, the firing pin should not be able to hit the primer, and the round won’t fire. That is the way the bolt and receiver are designed. It’s a safety measure that prevents catastrophic accidents.

Thanks for the info and pics. Did your carbine improve after breaking in?

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Thank you, that is useful advice, I will observe the bolt between shots.


Thanks for the info and pics. Did your carbine improve after breaking in?

Yes, it did. It took a few hundred rounds, but mine functions fine now. If it doesn’t start getting better, send it back for service if it’s still under warranty. I hope yours is like mine, though, and gets better with use.

 

[9mmfan]

Yes, it did. It took a few hundred rounds, but mine functions fine now. If it doesn’t start getting better, send it back for service if it’s still under warranty. I hope yours is like mine, though, and gets better with use.

Thanks, that sets my mind a bit more at ease.

I really want this to be a reliable rifle. It is just so light and handy, and I do feel a bit more nostalgic with this over a Mini 14 or the like.

I know it’s a repro, but I do own a genuine WWII (receiver at least) M1 Garand. Even bought it from the CMP, so I didn’t feel too bad about buying a new made companion for day to day use.

At least day to day when I’m out away from civilization.

 

[9mmfan]

So I finally managed to take it out again.

Last time I wanted to shoot it, it rained the whole weekend we were out here (wife’s family’s property out in the country).

Following the advice of RecoilRob, I went so far as to nudge the charging handle forward after each shot.

There were two, maybe three times that it proved itself to not have gone fully into battery. The nudge nudged it forward and every time I pulled the trigger I got a satisfying report and the accompanying recoil.

You guys really know what you are talking about!

Pleasingly, those instances were right at the beginning, the next four mags and then the rapid fire not nudging mag after that went without a hitch. So things seem to be improving.

It was a short session, I was mainly checking to see if my flea market found Colt 1903 would work (perfect except for one limp wrist malfunction when my wife first shot it, I don’t think she was expecting the trigger to be as light as it was. She normally likes to shoot revolvers).

I’m going to have to break down and visit the local indoor range. Especially since the ranch is up for sale.

Thanks again for the info and helping me out. It is appreciated.

 

[Merle1]

So I finally managed to take it out again.

Last time I wanted to shoot it, it rained the whole weekend we were out here (wife’s family’s property out in the country).

Following the advice of RecoilRob, I went so far as to nudge the charging handle forward after each shot.

There were two, maybe three times that it proved itself to not have gone fully into battery. The nudge nudged it forward and every time I pulled the trigger I got a satisfying report and the accompanying recoil.

You guys really know what you are talking about!

Pleasingly, those instances were right at the beginning, the next four mags and then the rapid fire not nudging mag after that went without a hitch. So things seem to be improving.

It was a short session, I was mainly checking to see if my flea market found Colt 1903 would work (perfect except for one limp wrist malfunction when my wife first shot it, I don’t think she was expecting the trigger to be as light as it was. She normally likes to shoot revolvers).

I’m going to have to break down and visit the local indoor range. Especially since the ranch is up for sale.

Thanks again for the info and helping me out. It is appreciated.

guess that carbine just needed some break in time, eh?

 

[9mmfan]

Hopefully it will continue thusly and prove to be the case.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Check the recoil spring. An out of spec spring may not fully cycle the action closed.

 

[RecoilRob]

Good to hear of your progress! The recoil spring does push the bolt back into battery but it's mostly just stripping off the top round against magazine pressure and if it's too stiff it'll short stroke. I'd suspect the extractor tension is a bit stiff making it hard to snap over the rim of the just chambered cartridge. In the past when it misfired it did extract and eject the unfired round, but the hammer striking the bolt probably finished the extractor getting over the rim so the ejection would seem normal.

On the rounds where you found the bolt would push forward a little I'd think if you instead had pulled and tried to eject the round it would have stayed in the chamber. This would be the definite proof of the extractor not making it over the rim if you would want to try next time. It isn't that hard to take out the extractor and make sure there's no grit or munge that might be impairing its' function. There is also the possibility that AO got a bit too heavy or long on their extractor spring which you should be able to determine during the disassembly. I've found springs that needed to be compressed almost to coil bind in different firearms that were cured with a touch on a grinding wheel to shorten them just a wee bit. It's a balance kind of thing with the extractor tension....you need enough to firmly grasp each rim but not so much that it can't reliably snap over each one. Yours sounds like it's right on the borderline and could use a little less pressure or relief of some resistance that might be due to dirt or debris. Good report....you're almost there!

Edit: Forgot to mention that the extractor can't fully snap over the rim without the ejector also being compressed allowing the bolt to fully close. A stiff ejector will make it more difficult to compress that last tiny bit needed to fully lock the action. This is also something worth investigating when you have the bolt apart as grunge can play a part as well as too long a spring that's binding at full compression. Again something of a balance where you want enough tension to fully eject the case but not so much it impairs function by being too stiff to reliably close.

 

[fteter]

I bought the Auto Ordnance replica myself in January 2018. Ran into several problems, including the failure to fire issue mentioned here. It took me almost a year and some significant effort to get it running smoothly and reliably, including a trip back to the factory. For me, the failure to fire issue was caused by a failure of the bolt to enter fully into battery. As RecoilRob suggested, I pulled the extractor and cleaned things up. In addition, thinking it might just need to be broken in, I purchased some cheap steel snap caps and started running dry-fire cycles. The more cycles I ran, the better the rifle performed at the range. By about 3,000 cycles, I had no more failure to fire issues.

My particular rifle had several problems out of the box. Failure to fire, failure to feed, failure to eject, poor mag fit, a tendency for the bolt to lock closed (had to smack the charging handle with a rubber mallet to force it open after locking up), and a few others. The dry firing break-in resolved the bolt issues altogether. The factory mag is junk. I replaced it with a couple of of KCI-branded mags from J&G Sales that work really well. I also very carefully tightened up the mag well for a better fit (get a micrometer for this - measure and squeeze a little, then measure a bit more and squeeze a little, and so on). I no longer have any mag issues. And I also got some advice from a Korean vet - the M1 runs better when wet. I've found that to be true with the replica as well. One more point - it's picky about ammo. The factory tech I spoke with recommended using Hornaday Critical Defense. He was right. I'm also finding Privi Partisan works well. Horrible results from Aguila.

I'm very happy with my carbine now. It's tweaked, I know what ammo works best, and know to oil it a bit prior to firing. I've run 1,000 rounds through it without any issue whatsoever. Stick with it, it's worth the effort.

 

[Merle1]

I bought the Auto Ordnance replica myself in January 2018. Ran into several problems, including the failure to fire issue mentioned here. It took me almost a year and some significant effort to get it running smoothly and reliably, including a trip back to the factory. For me, the failure to fire issue was caused by a failure of the bolt to enter fully into battery. As RecoilRob suggested, I pulled the extractor and cleaned things up. In addition, thinking it might just need to be broken in, I purchased some cheap steel snap caps and started running dry-fire cycles. The more cycles I ran, the better the rifle performed at the range. By about 3,000 cycles, I had no more failure to fire issues.

My particular rifle had several problems out of the box. Failure to fire, failure to feed, failure to eject, poor mag fit, a tendency for the bolt to lock closed (had to smack the charging handle with a rubber mallet to force it open after locking up), and a few others. The dry firing break-in resolved the bolt issues altogether. The factory mag is junk. I replaced it with a couple of of KCI-branded mags from J&G Sales that work really well. I also very carefully tightened up the mag well for a better fit (get a micrometer for this - measure and squeeze a little, then measure a bit more and squeeze a little, and so on). I no longer have any mag issues. And I also got some advice from a Korean vet - the M1 runs better when wet. I've found that to be true with the replica as well. One more point - it's picky about ammo. The factory tech I spoke with recommended using Hornaday Critical Defense. He was right. I'm also finding Privi Partisan works well. Horrible results from Aguila.

I'm very happy with my carbine now. It's tweaked, I know what ammo works best, and know to oil it a bit prior to firing. I've run 1,000 rounds through it without any issue whatsoever. Stick with it, it's worth the effort.

my position is: you should not need to do all this to a brand new rifle - poor quality control!!!